Salam to all,
shia bros, again, from other sources I hear a weird logic for matam on 10th Moharram. Can you all ((shias) give me the exact reason? and who and where it all started?
We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?
Changez;
The article at the link below should give you a pretty good idea of why shias mourn for Imam Hussain (as).
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/islam/0000103.php
Also, this link shows questions about matam that were posed to Ayatollah Sherazi and his answers.
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/islam/0000100.php
ws
[This message has been edited by a1shah (edited July 16, 2001).]
This topic has been discussed before.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/002623.html
This article on Azadari (mourning) was written by my cousin Zileyh at: http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/islam/0000103.php
- The mourning for Imam Hussain[as]
As the Ummah enters a new millennium and the coming of our Imam (as)
comes
ever closer, the Shi’a community is now being faced with new
challenges, the
traditional opposition from the majority school but also from the Shi’a
community itself.
Voices of opposition to the mourning rituals for Imam Hussain (as) is
becoming all the more prevalent. This is why we felt that it was our
duty to
defend the traditions of Aazadari.
1.1 Is Mourning for Imam Hussain (as) Bidah?
This is the common argument of the Ahl’ul Sunnah. Our response is that
such
rituals have passed through history and were rituals cited in the
Bible, the
Qur’an and in the practices of the Sahaba.
- Part 1 - Textual Proofs
2.1 Christian sources
The Wahabys will ask ‘why are you quoting Christian sources?’ to them
our
answer is simple doesn’t Ahmad Deedat prove Salaat from Christian
sources?
Of course, why because he seeks to demonstrate that this form of Salaat
is
correct was practised by previous generations. We will likewise advance
the
same arguments when proving mourning rituals.
The Bible, Isaiah 22:12 - shows that this type of mourning was ordained
by
God
“On that Day the Lords called for weeping and beating the breast, for
shaving the head and putting on sack cloth”
“You are now at ease, be anxious; tremble, you who have no cares. Strip
yourselves bare; put a cloth round your waists and beat yourselves”
The Bible, Isaiah 32:11
“Howl, Heshbon, for Ai is despoiled. Cry aloud you villages round
Rabbath
Ammon, put on sack cloth and beat your breast and score your body with
gashes”
The Bible, Jeremiah 49:3
“The crowd that had assembled for the spectacle, when they saw what had
happened went home beating their breasts”
The Bible, Luke 23:48
2.2 Mourning from the Qur’an
From the Holy Quran from the Chapter ADH-DHAARIYAAT we learn that
Hadhrath
Sara (as) struck her face when she was told that she would conceive a
baby.
“Then came forward his wife in grief, she smote her face and said
(what! I)
an old barren woman?”
Quran 51:29
Thus it is evident that smiting the face was not an objectionable act
in the
sight of Allah, otherwise Allah would have reprimanded her for doing
so.
2.3 The mourning rituals of the Sahaba, wives and Ahl’ul bayt (as)
2.3.1. Beating and mourning by a Bedouin / Sahaba
We can read from the book of Muwatta of Imam Malik, that a Bedouin came
to
Holy Prophet (saww) while beating his chest and tearing his hair in
front of
the holy prophet (saww) because he slept with his wife while fasting
during
month of Ramadhan.
Malik’s Muwatta
Book 18, Number 18.9.29:
Yahya related to me from Malik from Ata ibn Abdullah al-Khurasani that
Said
ibn al-Musayyab said, "A bedouin came to the Messenger of Allah, may
Allah
bless him and grant him peace, beating his breast and tearing out his
hair
and saying, ‘I am destroyed.’ The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless
him
and grant him peace, said, ‘Why is that?’, and he said, ‘I had
intercourse
with my wife while fasting in Ramadhan.’ The Messenger of Allah, may
Allah
bless him and grant him peace, asked him, ‘Are you able to free a
slave?’,
and the man said, ‘No.’ Then he asked him, ‘Are you able to give away a
camel?’, and the man replied, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Sit own,’ and someone
brought
a large basket of dates to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him
and
grant him peace, and he said to the man, ‘Take this and give it away as
sadaqa.’ The man said, ‘There is no one more needy than me,’ and (the
Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace), said,
‘Eat
them, and fast one day for the day when you had intercourse.’ "
-
The incident should be considered in the light of the following
facts :- -
The Bedouin being a Muslim was Sahabi (companion) of the Holy
Prophet
(saww). -
He was beating his chest and tearing his hair in presence of Holy
Prophet
(saww) who neither objected to it nor reprimanded him for the same. -
The action of the Bedouin was a result of spiritual pain he suffered
as
his fast was invalidated. -
This incident has been authentically recorded by Sunni
traditionalists.
2.3.2. Beating and mourning by Bilal
Sheikh Abdul Haq Mohaddis Hanafi Dehlavi who is regarded as one of the
greatest Scholars of the Sunni Sect, describing the events at the fatal
illness of the Holy Prophet (saww) in his book ‘Modaarejun Nubuwwat’
vol. II
page 544 records:-
“Bilal emerged beating his head and loudly wailing (from the room of
Aisha).”
Even in this case none of the companions raised any objection at the
action
of Bilal, the special Muezzin of the Prophet (saww). Moreover, the Holy
Prophet (saww) was yet alive and not dead. This is the extreme extent
of
grief. Then how can similar action for Imam Hussain (as) be prohibited?
Allamah Shibli Numani al Hanafi is a renowned Sunni scholar from the
Indian
subcontinent, in his Sirat-un Nabi (Eng. translation Volume 2 pg. 74)
quoting Sirat Ibn Hisham we read following Hadhrath Humza (ra)
martyrdom:
2.3.3. Beating and mourning by the wives of the Sahaba
“The Holy Prophet (P) returned to Madina and found the whole city gone
into
mourning. Whenever he went, he heard wailing and lamentation in every
house.
He was grieved to find that all who fell in the battle had their
mourners
doing their duty to the memory of their dear ones; but their was none
to
mourn the death of Humza (ra). Overwhelmed with grief the words that
there
was none to mourn the loss of Hamza escaped his lips. The Ansaris were
touched to the core when the remark came to their ears. They asked
their
women to go to the house of the Prophet (S) and lament over the death
of
Humza. The Prophet (p) thanked them for their sympathy, prayed for
their
well being, but added that it was not permissible to cry lamentations
in
memory of the dead. (Women in Arabia were used to wailing and lamenting
aloud, they would tear off their garments, dig their nails into their
cheeks, slap themselves on the face and put up loud screams. This
undesirable practice was from that day stopped for future”.
Suffice it to say:
The Sahaba’s wives performed mourning rituals upon the death of Amir
Humza
(ra).
Coming back to Numani’s final comments I would pose these questions:
-
If Lamenting was haraam why would the Prophet (S) had been saddened
that
no one was mourning his slain Uncle? -
Why would the Prophet (S) allow the women to do something that is
haraam? -
If as Numani tells us that this was a common practice amongst Arab
women
and it was banned it would have definitely received maximum publicity. -
Beating and mourning by Ayesha and the other wives of the Prophet
(S)
2.3.4. Beating and mourning by the wives of the Prophet (S)
Curiously, not a single wife of the Prophet (S) ever heard of this ban
(as
claimed by Numani). On the contrary Hadhrath Aisha regarded by Ahl’ul
Sunnah
as the most knowledgeable women on Qur’an and Sunnah performed the
following
when the Prophet (S) left this earth:
As narrated by al Tabari in History Volume 9 page 183 (English
translation
by Ismail Poonawalla)
Abbas narrates:
"I heard Aisha saying “The Messenger of God died on my bosom during my
turn,
I did not wrong anyone in regard to him. It was because of my ignorance
and
youthfulness that the Messenger of God died while he was in my lap.
Then I
laid his head on a pillow and got up beating my chest and slapping my
face
along with the women”.
Need we say anymore? Would the wives of the Prophet (S) indulge in a
haraam
activity?
According to Musnad of Imam Ahmad Hanbal Vol. 6, page 274; Aisha
mourned the
demise of the Holy Prophet (saww) with other women by beating her head.
2.3.5. Beating and mourning by Sayyida Fatima Zahra (as)
Again the same book of ‘Modaarejun Nubuwwat’ Vol. 2, page 163, the high
ranking Sunni Scholar, Sheikh Abdul Haq Mohaddis Hanafi Dehlavi
recorded
that:
“Fatima Zahra (as) hearing the rumour of the martyrdom of the Holy
Prophet
(saww) at Uhud came out of her house running and beating her head”.
Does it not transpire from the above that beating of head during the
act of
mourning for a martyr is also allowed by the religion as Sayyeda (as)
was
well aware of the religious code and was also infallible according to
ayah
tat-hir (33:33). In addition an action of any member of Ahl’ul bayt is
a
Sunnah for the Ithna Ashari Shia’s, mourning is not bidah it is a
Sunnah of
Sayyida Fatima Zahra (as).
2.3.6. Beating and mourning for Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal death
From the book of ‘Hayatul Aaiwan’ it is recorded that :
“Caliph Mutawwakil ordered breast-beatings to be held at the spot where
funeral prayers were offered over the dead body of Imam Ahmad bin
Hambal (a
founder of one of the Sunni schools of thought). Accordingly, some
25,00,000
persons including Muslims, Jews, Christians and Majusi gathered there
and
mourned Ahmad bin Hambal with breast-beatings.”
It may be noted here that this Caliph, Mutawwakil is the same one who
had
completely demolished the sacred shrine of the Holy Prophet’s grandson,
Imam
Hussain (as). Yet he has so much love and regard for Imam Ahmad Hambal
that
he not only beats his own breast, but commands other religious group
also to
follow his example!
2.4 What do these sources demonstrate?
From these sources it is evident that to mourn in this way is a natural
reaction to distress.
Who in this life can claim that he never and will never beat himself,
if he
dare to claim that than he just deceive himself! We human being
naturally
beat ourselves at the time when something make us happy or sad.
We all goes to the conference, meeting, party and other occasions when
the
time come to cheer someone for what he has done we start clapping
ourselves.
Some people will clap that their hands become red, but here there is no
one
to protest that we are hurting ourselves. Not only is there no one to
protest but we join other people by beating ourselves with our hands.
Also when we hear surprise or sad news we hit ourselves on the
forehead, on
our chest or any place in our body. You can see this behaviour to all
human
beings it does discriminate between Sunni, Shia, Christians, Jews or
any
one. Again we do not hear condemnation from those who accuse the Shia
of
beating themselves for the sake of Imam Hussain! Take the example from
the
Bible you see how it is the human nature:
“And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his
eyes
unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a
sinner”. (KJV)
The Bible, Luke 18:13
Strange is the world to those people who just follow what they have
been
taught without trying to struggle to find the truth.
Our detractors will argue that self-flagellation is haraam because it
causes
pain to the body. To counter this we would present these references.
Previously we quoted the book of Muwatta of Imam Malik, that a bedouin
came
to Holy Prophet (saww) while tearing his hair in front of the holy
prophet,
is this not the sort of injury oneself? Why did the Holy Prophet (saww)
not
order the Bedouin to refrain from this action?
The most explicit proof of self inflicted injury comes Owais Qarni, the
great Muslim Sahaba, praised by both Shia as well as Sunni erudite’s,
had an
immense love for the Holy Prophet (saww). When the news reached him in
Yemen
that two teeth of the Holy Prophet (saww) were broken in the battle of
Ohad,
he extracted all his teeth. When the Holy Prophet (saww) got the news
in
Madina that Owais had struck down all his teeth, he (saww) exclaimed,
“Indeed Owais is our devoted friend.”
This event can be found written in ‘Tazkeratul Aulia’ by Sheikh
Fariddun
Attar, also ‘Ihsanul Uyun’ commonly known as ‘Seerate Halbia’ vol. II,
page
295.
We should point out that breaking one’s teeth is a thousand times more
painful than the beating of one’s chest for a few hours. It is even
more
extreme than breast beating with chains or knives (Zanjir) because
those who
have suffered from tooth ache will understand the immense pain that
circulates in the mouth and head. Compare the removal of a tooth to the
forced removal of a full set of teeth without the benefit of modern day
anaesthetic and instruments the pain must have been unbearable. This
was
clearly an act of great courage.
Some individuals will seek to counter this evidence by stating that as
Shia
we do not follow the Sahaba and hence this act cannot be relied upon as
a
precedent. We would like to ask such persons, could you show us a
single
hadith in which the Prophet (S) condemned this act and issued an edict
banning it in the future?
Those who are against mourning for Imam Hussain (as) and, for that
matter,
for any of the martyrs of Karbala usually raise a question whether the
Holy
Prophet (saww) had ordered for mourning Imam Hussain (as). The answer
to
this question is: 'did the Holy Prophet (saww) ordered Owais Qarni
(ra) to
extract all his teeth? Did he insist that the Bedouin to beat his
chest? Did
he ordered Bilal to beat his head? Similarly there was no order by the
Holy
Prophet (saww) for Fatima (as) to beat her head at the rumour of his
martyrdom in Uhud. The reason for the absence of such orders with
regards to
mourning or even sanction therefore is, however, quite clear. These
acts
were all done out of love and sorrow and the Holy Prophet (saww) had
not
forbidden this.
It is quite clear for the holding mourning of Imam Hussain (as) by
means of
beating the chest or Zanjir is to give Physical expression of sympathy
for
the grief that befall Imam Hussain (as) and it expresses nothing but
love
and loyalty.
- Part 2 - Rational and logical proofs
Our fellow Shi’a opposed to mourning rituals usually present their
arguments
on the following basis.
· IMAGE: This is portraying a bad image for the Non Muslims?
· MESSAGE of Imam Hussain (AS): We are losing the real values of the
teachings of Imam Hussain(AS)
Our answers to these two arguments are as follows:
3.1 IMAGE:
If Image and blood spill was such an issue then why not examine the
other
fundamental of Islam. For instance all of the everyday aspects and
which is
all Wajib:-
-
Hijab; The kufr and non- Muslims see this as oppression of women,
and
question why a person should cover herself? -
Jehad; the Kufr and non-Muslims see this as radicalism and
fundamentalism. -
Sacrificing of an animal, lots of blood spill, and the manner which
non-Muslims see portray this. -
How about going around the Kaaba? Kufar find it funny and question
why do
Muslims circulate around a stone? -
Running between “Safa” and “Marwa”. Etc?
-
Circumcision: Obviously a Fardh, is looked as a cruel act by the
non-Muslims which we do to new born babies. -
The list goes on…
In India and Pakistan, during Muharram you will find that even Sunnis,
Hindus and Sikhs participating in the Marches and taking part in chest
beating and self-flagellation. So strong is the love expressed by
Hindus and
Sikhs to Imam Hussain (AS) that they view it as act of worship for
which
they will receive rewards - a means by which their prayers will be
answered?
So powerful are the processions in the Indian Subcontinent that Sikhs
will
even “proclaim” the words “YA ALI MADAD”, demonstrating their love for
Maula
Ali (as).
If these rituals are portraying such a “BAD IMAGE” then CLEARLY then
why are
Sunnis and Kaffirs not being turned away from them? We should also
point out
that the number of converts to Shia’ism in the Indian Subcontinent is
very
large - rather than being repulsed by these rituals converts are
attracted
to these rituals. Remember many Sunnis have never heard of Imam Hussain
(as), these rituals bring his martyrdom to the masses.
If image is such posing such problem, let say that Zinjeer of Tatbeer
was
completely abolished, what is there to say that KUFR are not going to
try to
Knit pick on the other aspect of Deen as mentioned above?
3.2 MESSAGE:
Are we really losing the Message of Imam Hussain(AS) performing by
these
rituals?
People opposed to the mourning rituals will make comments like:
“Instead of telling the world that Human Rights, Truth, Justice,
Integrity
is what Imam Husayn stood for we are shown as barbarians who cut the
heads
of their babies”
The message of Imam Hussain(AS) is strong!! As promised by the Prophet
(S),
it will remain intact till the day of Judgement!! To say that the
message of
Imam Hussain(AS) is lost is ludicrous as it goes against the traditions
of
the Prophet(S).
On the birth of Imam Hussain(AS), when Angel Gabriel informed that this
child would be one day be martyred, Lady Fatima(AS) wept and asked the
Prophet(PBUMHF) who will be there to mourn for him? , The
Prophet(PBUMHF)
assured her that group of people shall arise and will mourn her child
till
the day of Judgement, and he said this in a POSITIVE MANNER. No where
did he
state that Shias shall indulge in Haram acts, when they will mourn for
Imam
Hussain(AS).
Had the message really been lost, we would have been seeing a very
different
Islam today Islam is ALIVE TODAY BEACAUSE OF THEIR(AS) SACRIFICE,
therefore
on what basis do you state that the Imam Hussain(AS) values and
teachings
are lost. If this was the case then the ISLAM that we would be seeing
today
would not have been in the original form.
3.2.1. Common Questions and responses related to Zinjeer and Tatbeer:
Q1: "Imam Hussein (as) when speaking to S. Zainab said “Dear Sister, be
tranquil and patient. It is not only the inhabitants of the world that
die.
Those in the heavens do not also continue to live. everything dies
except
the Almighty, Who has created the people with His power, and will one
day
bring them to life again, whereas He Himself is Unique. My grandfather
was
better than me, my father was better than me. My mother and brother
were
better than me. It is necessary for every Muslim to follow the Prophet
of
Allah. Dear sister I administer an oath to you that you will follow my
advice. Do not tear your dress on account of my suffering; Do not
scratch
your face and do not lament”
A1: This tradition is often quoted by those opposed to mourning rituals
for
Imam Hussain[as]. This alleged tradition contradicts other Sahih
hadeeth in
which S. Zainab[sa] struck her head with a bar in the carriage.
Clearly it would be illogical for her to do this, had her brother
forbade
her to do it. Do you really think Zainab[sa] will disobey Imam e
Waqt[as]
and her brother?
Zaynab peace be upon her was the first person who hit her forehead to a
bar
inside the carriage she was in, causing considerable bleeding, when the
head
of al-Hussain (AS) was being paraded in Kufa. This is one evidence that
the
shedding of blood is permissible; whether from the head or from the
back
etc. The infallible Imam Zayn-el-‘Aabidin (AS) used to address Lady
Zaynab
al-Kubra (AS) by saying to her “You are al-Hamdu-Lillah an untaught
scholar” - “Anti al-Hamdu-Lillah 'Alimah Ghayr Mu’allimah”
Bihaar al-Anwaar; volume 45, page 114,
Jalaa’ al-'Oyun; volume 2, page 238,
Zaynab al-Kubra; page 112,
Asraar al-Shahadah; page 474,
Al-Muntakhab; volume 2, page 478,
Nusrat-ul-Madhlum; page 18.
Needless to say that 'Allamah al-Majlisi - compiler of Bihaar al-Anwaar
and Sheikh al-Shari’ah al-Isfahani have confirmed the authenticity of
the
report.
Q2: The post modern Shi’as who deem blood shedding a waste often pose
these
questions:
· Why we can’t donate blood-to-blood banks?
· Why can’t we take flowers to sick people dying of cancer in
hospitals?
· Why can’t we give food to the homeless and needy?
· Why can’t we show that Imam Husayn (AS) sacrificed his life for the
basic
rights and values that all communities believe in and cherish dearly.
· Why can’t we practice what we preach?
A2: As followers of the Ahlulbayt(AS) we should be following their
teachings
and ethics 24 HOURS A DAY, 7 DAYS A WEEK, ALL YEAR AROUND. As
followers of
the HOLY Progeny, we have all year to:
- preach the MESSAGE OF IMAM HUSSAIN (AS) and the lessons of Karbala.
- spread the deen of Allah(SWT).
- donate the blood to the sick and needy,
- give food to the homeless and the needy
ASHURA IS ONE DAY IN A WHOLE YEAR, HOW MUCH BLOOD CAN ONE WASTE IN ONE
DAY?
Q3. “It is our duty to deliver Imam Hussain’s message to the population
of
the country we live in. To show we are sincere believers of Islam and
hold
up the things Imam Husayn stood for.”
A3. “There is no problem with this statement what so ever, but what is
yet
to be proven is that this form of ritual is a) DAMAGING to the message
of
Imam Hussain(AS) b) it is HARAAM according to Hukum Shiria. Neither
the
Prophet(PBUMHF), nor the Imams(AS) forbade Matam in any form, as proven
above”.
Q4: “Now can you explain the benefits or the message of Maatam and
cutting
the children’s heads or zanjeer maatam and its relation to what Imam
Husayn
(AS) died for?”
A4: We counter such feeble arguments with this question?
What was the benefit of the Owais bin karni smashing his jaw, for going
through such grievance?
What was the benefit bedouin of beating and tearing his hair?
What was the benefit of lady Fatima al-Zahra(as), the holy infallible,
the
lady of light, to beat and mourn the way she(as) did?
- Conclusion:
So in Summary we have shown.
- Quranic evidence
- Evidence from Tarikh
- Evidence from Christian sources
- Rational proof and logical arguments
The anti Matamis usually present their argument on the basis of “Image”
and
“Message”, which is weak in the light of all the evidence shown above.
It
is sad that for some reason we always seem to question the validity of
anything that is related to Karbala and Imam Hussain(AS), BUT WHEN IT
COMES
TO THE HOLY PROPHET(PBUMHF), We don’t seem to object heavily to all of
the
fallacies from the Kufr against our Holy Prophet(saww). Indeed the
motive of
those people are suspicious!
But there are many who frown upon self-flagellation owing to various
views
promulgated about the opinions of the marajae - but different views
exist
here also and so the reader is urged to consult the maraja he does
taqlid
of, and not to condemn his brother’s actions as there are marajae
living
today who allow the spilling of blood in self-flagellation and indeed
recommend it - it may be your brother is simply following that opinion.
However in the end at its very deepest level the practice of
self-flagellation is an example of deeply wounded feelings of anguish
resulting in an action that is synonymous with it.
It is a co-ordination of the material with the spiritual - a
transcendant
passion approaching a state that cohesively unites the emotional with
the
physical - the emotion being pulsing grief, the action the pulsing
movements
of the flagellant, heart and body acting as one, blood flowing as a
result,
the intellect having acknowledged its permissibility on the basis of
the
above examples.
Further, the symbolism is more than even this. In addition to the
symbolism
of blood that has been spilled and thus sacrificed in the devotee’s
sympathy with his Master, the King of Martyrs, blood has a sacred
meaning
none the moreso than with Imam Hussain as shown by the blood in the
dust
given to Umm Salma (sa) turning blood red, and it raining blood
elsewhere
when the King of Martyrs was beheaded.
The symbolism of the spilling of blood by the devotee, his own blood,
is
thus symbolic of the very nature of Karbala and brings that event, the
supreme sacrifice, to the fore, a sacrifice that for which the lamb
was
sacrificed instead of his son by a knife by Ibrahim Khalilullah. And
what,
if Mohammad (saws)'s blood is spilt will man not spill his own blood?
And
even then the spilling of the blood has a deeper, more personal reason
- the
heart of worship is love, and here we find love of ahl-ul-bait.
In the world of the spirit the devotee wonders how it is that he who
was
spiritual, whose name meant kindness in its cosmic representation, and
whose
quality was his famous gentleness, Hussain (as) the Lord of the Spirits
of
the Believers, was treated so cruelly by an unjust material world with
suffering that no man has or will bear in the material world. It is
this
clash of the duality of material and spiritual, with material hurting
the
spiritual, that excites in the devotee his own spirit’s voice, that
heart
touched by the light of Imam Hussain (as), and since all hearts long
for
their origin, the believer reciprocates his Master’s pain by bringing
the
material onto that wherein his spirit lies - he cuts his own body which
harbours his own spirit, a spirit longing for union with his Master - a
Master hurt by a cruel material world that cut his material form and
hurt
his sensitivities, though his spirit, like that of the believer’s
endured
these calamities.
Thus the act of self-flagellation is nothing more than the believer
trying
to feel as his Master felt and more, realising he cannot be at Karbala
the
anguish this causes him - the anguish of separation - the helplessness
creates this phenomenon of self-flagellation.
The reader is asked if he cannot understand this to ponder the words
repeated by cautious Ulema throughout the ages on this topic who have
often
passed silence. It was not fear of the self- flagellators and their
influence as some say - the Ulema said - Fear the Mother of Hussain
(as) -
that is fear Fatima (sa) - for even if one does not perform this action
oneself, if that believer’s devotion to her son in this action finds
her
favour then it would be wrong to condemn him - very, very wrong. The
martyrdom of Imam Hussain (as) has spiritual dimensions that most men
can
never truly understand.
Why not do 'matam' for martyrdom of Hazrat Ali (RA) ?? wasn't he innocent? he was also martyred for not agreeing with kharijis, right?
if all other imams were also martyrd (by poisioning or killing) then why not do 'matam' for them as well?
can you please elaborate some on this?
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
It is interesting to note that you mentioned "Sunnis", "Sikhs" and even "Hindus" participate in 'matam' 'process'. I bet they do not even know what the teachings of Hazrat Ali (RA) are and what Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) was martyred for. They are blindly following it as part of cultural thing now (if they really are doing as you said). If they (hindus and sikhs) really knew the teachings of Hazrat Ali (RA) and Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) that well to do 'matam' for Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) they would have converted to Islam.
By any chance, do you have any link to such a news that shows hindu n sikhs mourning the death? (just need to look at it, not challenging).
Also, the reference from Bible, in my opinion it is for the incident when that particular nation had departed/deviated from the promise with Allah or teachings of their nabi thats why Allah ordered them to beat themselves (as a punishment for disobeying and not for 'matam'). You can also do research and you will find a reference to such incident in Quran.
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited July 19, 2001).]
There is no logic behind 'matam'. Being sad for some one's loss is one thing and coming out on the streets making noise, beating chest or self-inflicting wounds, on one's body is nothing but a drama and a sorry excuse to draw attention, use drugs and skip work. Most of these people are hired guns anyway and are high on 'charas' etc. If no one will go and watch them, all this drama will disappear very quickly.
[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
**Why not do 'matam' for martyrdom of Hazrat Ali (RA) ?? wasn't he innocent? he was also martyred for not agreeing with kharijis, right?
if all other imams were also martyrd (by poisioning or killing) then why not do 'matam' for them as well?
can you please elaborate some on this?
**
[/quote]
Changez,
We do matam for all 11 imams. Since the tragedy of Karbala was extreme, the occassion is more emotional.
Majlises are held for the shahadaat of every masoomeen.
ws
[quote]
Originally posted by Mullah_DoPiazza:
There is no logic behind 'matam'. Being sad for some one's loss is one thing and coming out on the streets making noise, beating chest or self-inflicting wounds, on one's body is nothing but a drama and a sorry excuse to draw attention, use drugs and skip work. Most of these people are hired guns anyway and are high on 'charas' etc. If no one will go and watch them, all this drama will disappear very quickly.
[/quote]
Mullah,
The only ones on drugs are your Taliban wahabis, who decide to get world attention blowing up buddas whenever they don't get aid/money from the "kuffars" after all their begging.
Matam has been done by prophets (as).
Read the quran for a change.
Changez,
The fact that non muslims also recognize the treachery of karbala puts the majority of muslims at shame, since most muslims do not even bother with what happened with the holy imam (as). I have seen sunnis, out of spite, holding marriage ceremonies during muharram.
Allah (swt) is the best of Judges.
Its not a matter about becoming muslim or not. Its a matter of recognizing the bravery of the holy imam (as), as he set forth to defend the teachings of Allah (swt) and his holy grandfather (pbuh), against the tyrant Yazid.
Upholding truth and destryoing falsehood is a universal goal. It is not restricted to Islam. Sad that most non-muslims can see the truth better than muslims, when analyzing the events of kerbala.
If it wasn't for the imam (as), you would now be following the teachings of Yazid and his scholars.
And as for sunnis, like you said it yrself, they have no or sparse knowkedge of the true teachings of the holy ahl-bait (as).
ws
[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
**It is interesting to note that you mentioned "Sunnis", "Sikhs" and even "Hindus" participate in 'matam' 'process'. I bet they do not even know what the teachings of Hazrat Ali (RA) are and what Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) was martyred for. They are blindly following it as part of cultural thing now (if they really are doing as you said). If they (hindus and sikhs) really knew the teachings of Hazrat Ali (RA) and Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) that well to do 'matam' for Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) they would have converted to Islam.
**
[/quote]
You couldn't be more wrong. Every year at my Imambargagh a group of Sikhs come to read poetry on Hazrat Ali and tragedy of Karbala. Once there came and old Hindu priest who read an entire majalis about the tragedy of Karbala. When he was asked if was now a Shia or a Hindu, he replied that all religions teach something good and the tragedy of the Ahlul Bait and their sacrifice is something that all people could learn. Even Hindus. Possibly even ignorant Sunnis.
[This message has been edited by Salman (edited July 19, 2001).]
Once again, why are you mixing history with Islam?? You can do Matam, thats up to you.. but why pass it off as part of your religion, i.e. Islam?
If Allah had wanted Matam to be part of Islam he would have said so in Quran or Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) would have instructed the sahabas to do that. But he didn't.
Also, No one denys the greatness of Hazrat Ali, but we cannot introduce things into Islam that are not part of Quran and Sunnah.
Don't talk false a1shah....
Not even a single Sunni holds any type of marriage or cheerful ceremony during the month of Muharram.
In most Sunni countries like Pakistan radio and tv don't even play songs.
[quote]
Originally posted by a1shah:
**Changez,
The fact that non muslims also recognize the treachery of karbala puts the majority of muslims at shame, since most muslims do not even bother with what happened with the holy imam (as). I have seen sunnis, out of spite, holding marriage ceremonies during muharram.
Allah (swt) is the best of Judges.
Its not a matter about becoming muslim or not. Its a matter of recognizing the bravery of the holy imam (as), as he set forth to defend the teachings of Allah (swt) and his holy grandfather (pbuh), against the tyrant Yazid.
Upholding truth and destryoing falsehood is a universal goal. It is not restricted to Islam. Sad that most non-muslims can see the truth better than muslims, when analyzing the events of kerbala.
If it wasn't for the imam (as), you would now be following the teachings of Yazid and his scholars.
And as for sunnis, like you said it yrself, they have no or sparse knowkedge of the true teachings of the holy ahl-bait (as).
ws**
[/quote]
[This message has been edited by wasir (edited July 20, 2001).]
Changez, it appears from your comment that you have not read my cousin's article carefully. Please do so, your required answers are in the article.
Regarding the reference in the Quran, can you please post it, I would like to explain it to you.
[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
**It is interesting to note that you mentioned "Sunnis", "Sikhs" and even "Hindus" participate in 'matam' 'process'. I bet they do not even know what the teachings of Hazrat Ali (RA) are and what Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) was martyred for. They are blindly following it as part of cultural thing now (if they really are doing as you said). If they (hindus and sikhs) really knew the teachings of Hazrat Ali (RA) and Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) that well to do 'matam' for Hazrat Imam Hussain (RA) they would have converted to Islam.
By any chance, do you have any link to such a news that shows hindu n sikhs mourning the death? (just need to look at it, not challenging).
Also, the reference from Bible, in my opinion it is for the incident when that particular nation had departed/deviated from the promise with Allah or teachings of their nabi thats why Allah ordered them to beat themselves (as a punishment for disobeying and not for 'matam'). You can also do research and you will find a reference to such incident in Quran.
**
[/quote]
changes
the sunnis definately do know what the teachings of ali(as) and hussain(as) are...they'd be pretty ignorant not to know about their 4th caliph
and as far as hindus are concerned...they do know what matam is and y it is done...every year on the 10 of muharram(ashura) hindus hold majalis' in calcutta, dehli, mumbai etc etc.
"There as many ideas in the minds of men and women as there are stars in the sky, it is your job to hold on to one and make it come true"
Anonymous
[quote]
Originally posted by Ahl_e_Sunnah:
**changes
the sunnis definately do know what the teachings of ali(as) and hussain(as) are...they'd be pretty ignorant not to know about their 4th caliph
and as far as hindus are concerned...they do know what matam is and y it is done...every year on the 10 of muharram(ashura) hindus hold majalis' in calcutta, dehli, mumbai etc etc.
**
[/quote]
This is new to me that 'Hindus' hold majalis, it is possible that they join a majalis as Salman said in his comments.
And Bro a1shah explained that Shias do 'matam' for all, but 'severely' or 'more' for Hazrat Hussain (RA) as he was martyrd cruelly. I think Sunnis also acknowledgement the services of Hazrat Ali (RA), Hazrat Hassan (RA), Hazrat Hussain (RA)... no Sunni doubts their sacrifices, personalities. And no sunni would say that nomination of Yazid was justified or right.
And for Ameer Muwaiya, I read a Sunni history book, it does acknowledge that he 'grabbed' or kinda self-nominated 'khalifa', and is according to my personal thougts as well that he shouldn't have been a khalifa.
It is sad to note that Shias think that Sunnis don't know about Karbala tragedy. Yes, they don't do matam, but they don't do matam as such for anyone, it is limited by three days (derived from ahadith).
Bro Alizadeh, ur assumption is right, I couldn't read the whole cut'n paste, I rarely get chance to go thru lengthy cuts 'n pastes.
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
Simply, its barbaric. They call it love, but Islamicly its Barbaric. You are not suppose to cross lines in love, Allaah says, stay in your limit. Abusing your self is idiotic, stupid and non-Islamic doesn’t matter for what your are doing it and how much love you have for that individual-love is just a frontal word, background thing is to show off how much blood one can pure out of him self just by hitting themselves so they can sell it and put bets on it. Happens each year in Pakistan among Shias, go there you will see.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
Check for more Info with References: http://www.salaf.indiaaccess.com/shiites/matam.htm
“I am not playing with a full deck!”
Show-off how much blood can pour out ? They place bets ?
You are one sad individual if that is really what you believe ?
Ignorance has no limits.
That the commemoration of the martydom of Imam Hussain (as) would take place till the end of time, by the shias of holy Imam (as), was a promise given to Fatima Zahra by the holy prophet (pbuh).
If it wasn't for these majlises, first started by Bibi Zainab (daughter of Imam Ali (as)) and reinforced by our 4th imam (as) onwards, the sacrificies of Imam Hussain (as) would be unknown to the majority of the ummah and be lost into the annals of time.
If sunnis know about the events of karbala, it is because of the efforts of the Imam's (as) shia, who will never allow the great sacrifice to be forgotton.
Falsehood, by nature, is bound to perish.
ws
“I am not playing with a full deck!”