Loathe Islam but not Muslims.....

In keeping with our racism-themed discussions these days…

Why I don’t believe people who say they loathe Islam but not Muslims
It is psychologically unnatural to claim that you hate an ideology without hating the people in whose lives it is expressed

By Andrew Brown

It is a trope among people who loathe and fear Islam that their fear and loathing has nothing in common with racism because Islam is not a race, the implication being that hating Muslims is rational and wise whereas hating black people is deeply irrational and stupid.

Some people who claim that Islam is profoundly evil will also say that they bear Muslims no ill will but I don’t think they are telling the truth. It is really difficult and indeed psychologically unnatural to claim that you hate an ideology without hating the people in whose lives it is expressed. Religions, nations, and even races are all shared imaginative constructs (although nations and races have other characteristics as well) and if you really want to extirpate them, you must extirpate the people who imagine them as well.

I remember George W Bush explaining that we were not going to war with the Iraqi people, but with the Iraqi government. Since then, something like a million of the Iraqi people have died as a result of our not going to war with them. The distinction is no doubt a great comfort to their surviving relatives but it’s not very useful for predictive purposes.

Racial and religious hatreds have one thing in common: they are not inspired by the race or religion of the hater, but by the religion or race of the victim. This is clearest in the case of antisemitism, which can appear as either a racial or a religious hatred, or indeed both. What’s constant is that it involves hating Jewish people, whatever the reasons given. Similarly, if you hate black people, you hate them on racist grounds whatever the colour of your own skin, and if you hate Muslims, Catholics, Quakers or Mormons, you hate them for their religion – whatever your own beliefs. So it is perfectly possible for religious hatred to be motivated by atheism and it may be quite common in the modern world.

The claim that Islam isn’t a race and so it is entirely rational to hate and fear it gains its moral force from the implicit claim that there is something uniquely horrible about racial hatred. I don’t think there is, though I see why we assume it: 50 or 60 years ago racial prejudice was an entirely natural part of English life. In order to change that, it was necessary to mark it as a uniquely dreadful and disfiguring condition: racism became a kind of moral leprosy. Without in any way wishing to roll back that progress, it’s worth noting that in other societies and at other times racial prejudice has not been the most urgent incitement to communal hatred.

But if we allow that the crimes of Stalin, or of Mao, were comparable to those of the transatlantic slave trade in ambition if not in duration, they are not excused in the slightest by saying that the most terrible atheist dictators were not very racist at all.

Stalin and Mao would have enthusiastically endorsed Sam Harris when he wrote that “there are some beliefs so terrible that we are justified in killing people just for holding them”, just as they would have endorsed his defence of torturing prisoners.

In the end, the position of people who claim that hatred of Islam is somehow superior to hatred of black people is pretty much like Alan Partridge boasting that at least he’s not David Brent.

From: Why I don’t believe people who say they loathe Islam but not Muslims

Re: Loathe Islam but not Muslims…

exactly, i’ve heard that before.. “it’s nothing personal against you, but i just don’t like islam” - and to me, that makes no sense whatsoever. whether you’re a highly practising muslim or not, you still abide by islamic rulings (either fully or to some extent) and therefore you represent islam in some way.

Re: Loathe Islam but not Muslims…

This can be extended to orientation also.

“Hate the sin, not the sinner.”
“It can’t be allowed and must be punished for it goes against teachings”

Re: Loathe Islam but not Muslims…

my guess is people who such things hold disapproval towards political islam and the social structure like that in saudi arabia or iran - mandatory dress codes for women, public floggings and beheadings etc. but dont see a problem with muslims living in secular societies.

Re: Loathe Islam but not Muslims…

Well, see, I don’t particularly like America, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t like Americans.

I used to not be too fond of organised religion too, but nowadays I don’t really care because it’s personal.

I think there are many people who dislike organised religion. Whether it be Buddhism, Hinduism or anything. I don’t see why one should take it personally because obviously people just don’t like certain aspects of it.

I hear people say that just because we hate Islam doesn’t mean we’re racist! It’s a religion not a race… but considering the majority of Muslims are people of colour…

Re: Loathe Islam but not Muslims…

I’ve heard of the opposite more often.. that Islam isn’t the “problem” but Muslims (ie their behaviour) are.. Been asked so many times why it’s ok for Muslim guys to date etc. but not the girls :rolleyes:

Re: Loathe Islam but not Muslims…

Nonsensical, imho.

It’s like saying I have no problem with religious atheists.

Re: Loathe Islam but not Muslims…

which part is nonsensical exactly? :confused:

Re: Loathe Islam but not Muslims…

Nothing you said specifically. I just needed a target to rant at. :hypo:

Actually, I internalized “muslims living in secular societies” as secular/non-practicing “muslims”…which is not the same, of course.

Re: Loathe Islam but not Muslims…

A secular person is not necessarily non muslim. A common misconception. Secular has become a dirty word. Unfortunately.

I heard that before ..and my response was instant…I completely understand, It’s the same way I feel about Catholicism,..

Delivered with a smile :slight_smile:

Re: Loathe Islam but not Muslims…

may I have your mobile number? I gave you mine some time ago!

Re: Loathe Islam but not Muslims…

How is your response received?

Re: Loathe Islam but not Muslims…

Are you saying all the non muslims are “dirty”? I thought you were for “EQUAL RIGHTS” for all… RELIGION, HOMOSEXUALITY, IMMORALITY, blah blah blah…?

Shock, puzzle, confused look and then it settled in what I had just done and the lady shrank visibly at a loss because she was now in a no win situation.

Sometimes people think that a modern looking and sounding muslim is non religious or anti religion and then get surprised when they are schooled. This was less of a schooling but a TKO

Re: Loathe Islam but not Muslims…

True, not necessarily in the ideological sense. But typically, “secular Muslim” typically implies someone who is Muslim in that they share cultural traits with Muslims, or may abide by certain rituals (like abstaining from Pork), but on the whole are not practicing and most importantly religion does not inform their world view or how they live.

Re: Loathe Islam but not Muslims…

I cannot help you if you have comprehension issues.

Looks like there is a question in there somewhere. So here is my answer.

I am for equality. Are you? Sure seems like you are homophobic. My advice would be to remove the hate from your heart. You will find peace.

Re: Loathe Islam but not Muslims…

Loathe Islam but not Muslims…Loath Nazism but not Nazis…Loath Communism, but not Communists…Loath Capitalism but not Capitalists…

Hate the game, not the player?!

Ummm…nope. Still not making sense to me.

Re: Loathe Islam but not Muslims…

Wait… you are mixing so many things into one pot…
It doesn’t make sense to you because you don’t understand the difference between Xenophobia, religion, and politics.

Re: Loathe Islam but not Muslims…

Perhaps..but then I’d suggest you’re not following (my attack on) the actual discourse of Bill Maher and Sam Harris, who suggest it is not xenophobic to attack Islam, the religion, mostly because of the politics of Islamism.

The point is, in all cases you have the ideals juxtaposed with the label given to those who adhere to those ideals. The statements other than the one dealing with Islam and Muslims would probably be generally considered nonsensical.

One can qualify the ideals in a hope to engineer a distinction between the statements, but I think the dichotomy stands. Those who suggest it’s possible to hate Islam but not Muslims can’t mean what they say.