Loaded Topic...

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Loaded Topic…

@Captain1

ODI Era 1:
Played 97, won 41, lost 52 (ignoring BD, Canada)

ODI Era 2:
Played 421, won 216, lost 193 (ignoring BD, Kenya, Namiba, Scotlan, UAE, ZIM)

ODIE Era 3:
Played 196, won 86, lost 104 (ignoring Afg, BD, Can, HK, Ire, Ken, Scot, Zim)

Now in era 1 it was WI time if we ignore WI we played 66, won 34, lost 28
Era 2 WI was fading and Aus was picking up so we keep the results as they are
In Era 3 it was Aus power time, if we ignore Aus we played 174, won 81, lost 87

Again, these era were made up by myself considering beginning of ODI. Era 1 included IK, Javed Miandad, Abdul Qadir and many others. Era 2 included Wasim, Waqar, Saqlain, Saeed Anwar, Inzi, Saleem Malik, Shoaib Akhtar, Saqlain, Mushtaq etc.. Era 3 included fading Inzi, Yousuf, fading Shoaib Akhtar, parts of Aamir, Asif.

In my opinion Era 2 had just too many brilliant ODI players both bowlers and batsmen compared to post 2003 and not all of them were intellectuals/brilliant as captain/tactician. I could be wrong.

ok thx…you confirmed my nos…

i agree with your eras but i am ignoring era 1 ODIs for all practical purposes..although we know the impact of kardar on the team in 50s (only test matches though)

For era 2 and era 3, we dont need to adjust for WI and Aus.

We can deduct gazallion theories from the data but employing classic consulting MECE framework where we try to encompass everything under one big theme first, may i say that it is clear in which direction we are heading…we are on the slope…and one of the biggest change in last 40 years has been the team mix …from urban to rural. Again, correlation highly subjective qualitatively but backed up to some extent quantitatively.

Conclusion…you can kick all old players out and you can bring all new players in…fine nothing will change because you have a huge leadership vacuum with no one capable of strategic thought process … Allah malik hai type mentality prevails and hence you need to spend a lot of time on some of your core players grooming them as well…strategically, mentally.

Every team has a strong thought leader when they did well…who was not a great player but was very strong mentally and tactically and team rallied around him..modern cruicket…think of Flemming from NZ, Arjuna from SL, nasir hussain from England etc

[novice75]

Loaded Topic…

I’ll offer also looking at opposition strengths. India of post Dhoni era is much stronger with same pathetic bowling today than Tendulkar era.

However India of Dhoni era is good not great. West Indies of 80 s and Australia of Ponting era should be real benchmarks.

[Captain1]

Re: Loaded Topic…

Other view is to see captain leading the team:

[TABLE=“class: grid, width: 893, align: center”]

Batting 1st

[TABLE]
[TR=“class: grid”]
Grouping

Span
Mat
Won
Lost
Tied
NR
W/L
Ave
RPO
Inns
HS
LS
[/TR]

*Javed Miandad
1980-1993
33
14
17
0
2
0.82
26.68
4.15
33
294
71

*Zaheer Abbas
1982-1984
7
4
3
0
0
1.33
26.12
4.62
7
229

*Imran Khan
1982-1992
83
42
37
0
4
1.13
30.43
4.5
83
338
143

*Rameez Raja
1992-1997
13
5
6
0
2
0.83
32.01
4.84
13
327
116

*Wasim Akram
1993-2000
64
41
21
2
0
1.95
28.58
4.66
64
323
43

*Waqar Younis
1993-2003
35
24
9
0
2
2.66
33.36
5.21
35
344
117

*Saleem Malik
1994-1994
14
8
5
1
0
1.6
27.97
4.29
14
328
146

*Moin Khan
1995-2001
19
10
9
0
0
1.11
30.55
4.75
19
320
135

*Aamer Sohail
1996-1998
12
6
5
0
1
1.2
31.6
5.02
12
316
188

*Rashid Latif
1998-2003
14
5
9
0
0
0.55
24.81
4.51
14
314
114

*Inzamam-ul-Haq
2002-2007
44
24
18
0
2
1.33
31.3
5.19
44
353
107

*Younis Khan
2005-2009
11
5
6
0
0
0.83
31
5.14
11
321
168

*Shoaib Malik
2007-2008
17
13
4
0
0
3.25
38.91
5.75
17
347
232

*Shahid Afridi
2010-2011
16
8
7
0
1
1.14
28.61
5.17
16
385
124

*Misbah-ul-Haq
2011-2014
36
19
14
2
1
1.35
30.73
4.93
36
329
165

Batting 2nd

[TABLE]
[TR=“class: grid”]
Grouping

Span
Mat
Won
Lost
Tied
NR
W/L
Ave
RPO
Inns
HS
LS
[/TR]

*Javed Miandad
1980-1993
29
12
16
1
0
0.75
27.85
4.17
29
263
81

*Zaheer Abbas
1982-1984
6
3
2
0
1
1.5
25.27
4.85
5
222
134

*Imran Khan
1982-1992
56
33
22
1
0
1.5
29.93
4.57
56
277
113

*Rameez Raja
1995-1997
9
2
7
0
0
0.28
28.05
4.86
9
263
148

*Wasim Akram
1993-2000
45
25
20
0
0
1.25
30.53
4.71
45
271
131

*Waqar Younis
2000-2003
27
13
14
0
0
0.92
26.95
4.67
27
278
108

*Saleem Malik
1992-1995
20
13
6
1
0
2.16
32.64
4.48
20
251
109

*Moin Khan
1995-2001
15
10
5
0
0
2
30.74
3.95
15
231
117

*Aamer Sohail
1996-1998
10
3
7
0
0
0.42
31.08
5.22
10
315
228

*Rashid Latif
1998-2003
11
8
3
0
0
2.66
35.49
5.07
11
300
160

*Inzamam-ul-Haq
2002-2007
43
27
15
0
1
1.8
35.37
5.14
43
344
168

*Younis Khan
2005-2009
10
3
7
0
0
0.42
23.83
4.45
10
255
89

*Shoaib Malik
2007-2009
19
11
8
0
0
1.37
33.59
5.16
19
322
75

*Shahid Afridi
2009-2011
18
10
8
0
0
1.25
29.33
5.01
18
289
135

*Misbah-ul-Haq
2008-2014
35
20
15
0
0
1.33
30.33
4.86
35
329
130

EDIT Sorted with captain order chronologically… since our captains rotated so many times some of them are messed up :hehe:

[Some1]

Re: Loaded Topic…

My $0.02 for what it is worth:

Pakistan was never a strong batting side (well, for as long as I can remember anyway).

Even in the 80s and 90s, Pakistan’s batting collapsed often and frequently made heavy weather of small targets. However, this deficiency was masked by the presence of a few outstanding batsmen (Zaheer Abbas/Miandad in the 80s, Saeed Anwar/Inzimam in the 90s for example) and of course a very strong bowling department. Pakistan, in those days, snatched victory from jaws of defeat more often than the other way round.

So what is different for Pakistan now:

I would say (1) Lack of consistent “Miandad/Inzimam type” batters - around who other lesser batsmen can rally (2) Lack of charismatic team leaders (like Imran, Wasim, Waqar…) that other players in the team can draw inspiration and strength from.

Right now the Pakistan team represents a chaotic democracy - there is no “spiritual figurehead” (so to speak).

India has been lucky in recent years to have Dhoni at the helm…he has a calm about him that is “unIndian” in many ways…he is equanimous in victory and in defeat. Also, I have never once heard of Dhoni criticizing an individual player. Dhoni’s detached process-focussed (as opposed to “outcome-focussed”) temperament rubs off on the team and makes them handle pressure situation better. While in Pakistan, even current players are not shy about letting the world know of what they think of another player in the team.

[Arleitter]

Re: Loaded Topic…

@Some1

My $0.02 for what it is worth:

Pakistan was never a strong batting side (well, for as long as I can remember anyway).

Even in the 80s and 90s, Pakistan’s batting collapsed often and frequently made heavy weather of small targets. However, this deficiency was masked by the presence of a few outstanding batsmen (Zaheer Abbas/Miandad in the 80s, Saeed Anwar/Inzimam in the 90s for example) and of course a very strong bowling department. Pakistan, in those days, snatched victory from jaws of defeat more often than the other way round.

So what is different for Pakistan now:

I would say (1) Lack of consistent “Miandad/Inzimam type” batters - around who other lesser batsmen can rally (2) Lack of charismatic team leaders (like Imran, Wasim, Waqar…) that other players in the team can draw inspiration and strength from.

Right now the Pakistan team represents a chaotic democracy - there is no “spiritual figurehead” (so to speak).

India has been lucky in recent years to have Dhoni at the helm…he has a calm about him that is “unIndian” in many ways…he is equanimous in victory and in defeat. Also, I have never once heard of Dhoni criticizing an individual player. Dhoni’s detached process-focussed (as opposed to “outcome-focussed”) temperament rubs off on the team and makes them handle pressure situation better. While in Pakistan, even current players are not shy about letting the world know of what they think of another player in the team.

Agreed to all points and also to this but he calmly and almost silently axed Sehwag and Gambhir ,who stood against him. Good or bad

[LucyMay]

Re: Loaded Topic…

@Some1

My $0.02 for what it is worth:

India has been lucky in recent years to have Dhoni at the helm…he has a calm about him that is “unIndian” in many ways…he is equanimous in victory and in defeat. Also, I have never once heard of Dhoni criticizing an individual player. Dhoni’s detached process-focussed (as opposed to “outcome-focussed”) temperament rubs off on the team and makes them handle pressure situation better. While in Pakistan, even current players are not shy about letting the world know of what they think of another player in the team.

While Dhoni has been a fantastic captain (though you had to slide in that “unIndian” dig, didn’t you? ), the team owes its can-do attitude to Ganguly. He was quite the opposite of Dhoni - aggressive and passionate about the game, but he installed huge confidence within a team that was reeling from the match fixing horror of the 2000s. While having a calm mind is nice, sometimes fierce aggression and pride on the part of the leader does motivate a team more. Dhoni IMO has had an easier ride - he got a team that was doing reasonably well and was growing in confidence. Very unlike the team that Ganguly was handed over.

But yes, I do agree about what you said about criticizing individual players publicly. Also important is not to show obvious favoritism/bias towards your own “chamchas” and relatives

[waleedhbk]

Re: Loaded Topic…

Whatever it is if Hafeez stays captain then we are further doomed

[Nikema]

Re: Loaded Topic…

Had to log in for this one.*

PD - IMO Pakistan’s demise at international cricket level is simply because we are ( more so in last ten years) still trying to employ the approaches towards cricket that worked for us in 80’s till 92. Keep wickets in hands - try to slog in final 10 overs - label anyone who ‘tries to score runs before ten overs as irresponsible and keep him out’ whereas other teams have moved on and not only have innovated in their approach towards batting but also towards overall selection of squad process most important of which is selecting the leader and support staff.*

Our idea on that front is from 80’s too - Get the senior most guy in that position - regardless of his inabilities to do the job. Our batting Coach is the guy who retired is 1984, well it is a step up from the coach guy who retired in 1975.* They get in these posts because people putting them in these spots have ancient approach towards the game. Absolutely no out of box mentality. No innovations.* These guys get into these positions to keep supporting tried, tested, mentally scarred, non performing seniors in final 11 (Well TBF they do perform against SL/BD/Zim/NZ/WI on UAE/Asian/WI wickets) and in return these seniors will make sure to NOT let in another guy in coaching position who will encourage seniors to change their approach towards the game or give consistent chances to juniors.*

There is your problem - Fix the nexus of senrios who only walk into field to “secure” selection for their next tour - Fix he issue of Ex cricketers who back these seniors so that they themselves of their friends get to go on gravey trains of coaching national team or NCA or U19 or A teams or get a spot in PCB.

If above gets fixed then Yeh Mitti Abhi Bhi Barri Zarkheyz Hey. As I have said few times in past in KK that I have seen more batting talent in Pak in last 6 years at domestic level than I saw at Pakistani international level in 80’s and 90’s.

[GoldenAsif]

Re: Loaded Topic…

@Some1

My $0.02 for what it is worth:

Pakistan was never a strong batting side (well, for as long as I can remember anyway).

Even in the 80s and 90s, Pakistan’s batting collapsed often and frequently made heavy weather of small targets. However, this deficiency was masked by the presence of a few outstanding batsmen (Zaheer Abbas/Miandad in the 80s, Saeed Anwar/Inzimam in the 90s for example) and of course a very strong bowling department. Pakistan, in those days, snatched victory from jaws of defeat more often than the other way round.

So what is different for Pakistan now:

I would say (1) Lack of consistent “Miandad/Inzimam type” batters - around who other lesser batsmen can rally (2) Lack of charismatic team leaders (like Imran, Wasim, Waqar…) that other players in the team can draw inspiration and strength from.

Right now the Pakistan team represents a chaotic democracy - there is no “spiritual figurehead” (so to speak).

India has been lucky in recent years to have Dhoni at the helm…he has a calm about him that is “unIndian” in many ways…he is equanimous in victory and in defeat. Also, I have never once heard of Dhoni criticizing an individual player. Dhoni’s detached process-focussed (as opposed to “outcome-focussed”) temperament rubs off on the team and makes them handle pressure situation better. While in Pakistan, even current players are not shy about letting the world know of what they think of another player in the team.

Welcome!

Absolutely agree with you.

Pakistan lose 80-90% of the games because of the batting.

We collapsed frequently back then in the 80s as well, once crashing to 87 all out against India at Sharjah in 1985 chasing a meagre 125! That was Imran’s come-back game after being out of the international game for almost 2.5 years with injury and all his good work with the ball (6/14, all top order wickets incl. Gavaskar) went down the drain. Then we were woeful with the bat in the first half of the 1992 World Cup incl. collapsing to 72 all out against England on a rainy wicket (IK did not play that game)

I know people don’t like to admit it but Pakistan were very very lucky in the 1992 WC Final as well. Miandad was twice plumb LBW against Pringle (not given by Bucknor), then Imran’s easy catch missed by Gooch, a sitter (he would have caught that 9 times out of 10). Pakistan could easily have been 40 odd for 4 and the game would have been over. Malik was short on confidence and form in that tournament.

Without that crucial 139-run partnership between Miandad and Imran, Pakistan could have easily folded for 150 odd and Wasim’s magical spell with the ball wouldn’t have even come into the equation!!! Both rescued Pakistan with another responsible backs-to-the-wall 112-run partnership (Pak were 38/3 chasing 268 for victory) against Australia in the 1987 World Cup semi-final in Lahore. Pakistan were very much in that game until Miandad was bowled by Reid for a quite magnificent 70 under pressure.

And India are extremely lucky to have Dhoni; so cool and composed under pressure, such nerves of steel. A match-winner. He would walk into any Indian All time XI in my book

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Loaded Topic…

thx for the input guys

we know batting is our problem…we know that from day one. Of course we need to do something abt it technically but we also fail miserably in crunch matches and these days more frequently and i feel we have a serious leadership vacuum…our dressing rooms have lack of that confident bench

why are we so happy that hafeez resigned…who will replace him?

i think we still have talent but you need 3-4 mature players (call them educated or whatever but a gang that is the core brain…go team by team and you will identify 3-4 players around which everyone else rally…i dont see any in pak after inzi) …we have nothing in that department and that is one of the main problems

once misbah retires, you guys will see the extent of leadership vacuum…

ahmad shezad,
umar akmal,
kamran akmla,
saeed ajmal,
umar gul
junaid khan,
abd rehman,
azhar ali
asad shaafiq
shoaib malik
hafeez

I mean that is all we have…am i wrong? in crunch matches, what will we do…

here is the point..a lot of these players (ajmal, gul, malik, hafeez etc) have played a lot of cricket and some are very talented as sportsmen but i just dont see any leadership credentials in the dressing room

imagine misbah retires and hafeez is not good, what do we have in terms of leadership in the dressing room?

I really like azhar ali and asad shafiq…they seem to have mature temprament

[GoldenAsif]

Re: Loaded Topic…

In short

Fragile, inconsistent batting
General mental weakness/Tendency to crumble under pressure

our nemesis

[Jolie]

Re: Loaded Topic…

@LucyMay

While Dhoni has been a fantastic captain (though you had to slide in that “unIndian” dig, didn’t you? ), the team owes its can-do attitude to Ganguly. He was quite the opposite of Dhoni - aggressive and passionate about the game, but he installed huge confidence within a team that was reeling from the match fixing horror of the 2000s. While having a calm mind is nice, sometimes fierce aggression and pride on the part of the leader does motivate a team more. Dhoni IMO has had an easier ride - he got a team that was doing reasonably well and was growing in confidence. Very unlike the team that Ganguly was handed over.

But yes, I do agree about what you said about criticizing individual players publicly. Also important is not to show obvious favoritism/bias towards your own “chamchas” and relatives

All talks of captaincy aside, Dhoni just like all his predecessors has inherited a supremely and all naturally talented solid batting line up. These guys are just so talented and confident in their abilities to go down without putting a fight. While Pakistan despite going through all thick and thins in batting department has always managed to produce a world class and highly effective bowling unit. Pakistani batters are under severe scrutiny and fiercely criticised, and rightly so. However, I’m surprised that no one is talking about the elephant in the room - Pakistan’s bowling. Their trademark strength. I would imagine that any Pakistani cricket fan who’s been watching cricket for a long time would be worried and in fact, offended at the prospect of team lacking a start bowler, a lead wicket taker and just a genuinely threatening bowler who can put and sustain pressure on the opposition. The class, the style, the the swagger and the oomph factor is tragically missing from Pakistani bowling.

[Captain1]

Re: Loaded Topic…

@Jolie

All talks of captaincy aside, Dhoni just like all his predecessors has inherited a supremely and all naturally talented solid batting line up. These guys are just so talented and confident in their abilities to go down without putting a fight. While Pakistan despite going through all thick and thins in batting department has always managed to produce a world class and highly effective bowling unit. Pakistani batters are under severe scrutiny and fiercely criticised, and rightly so. However, I’m surprised that no one is talking about the elephant in the room - Pakistan’s bowling. Their trademark strength. I would imagine that any Pakistani cricket fan who’s been watching cricket for a long time would be worried and in fact, offended at the prospect of team lacking a start bowler, a lead wicket taker and just a genuinely threatening bowler who can put and sustain pressure on the opposition. The class, the style, the the swagger and the oomph factor is tragically missing from Pakistani bowling.

Not really, Dhoni removed batsmen /bowlerswho were not performing and brought in players whom he trusted were better. He made changes to team and brought better players, not necessarily friend-players whom he played in domestic with or someone who favored him in past.

[Jolie]

Re: Loaded Topic…

@Captain1

Not really, Dhoni removed batsmen /bowlerswho were not performing and brought in players whom he trusted were better. He made changes to team and brought better players, not necessarily friend-players whom he played in domestic with or someone who favored him in past.

Dhoni has received fair bit of criticism for his friendship with Kholi, Bhaji, Yuvraj in the past. Plus he had his own issues with some of the senior players. It’s just he’s blessed to have a board that takes over and deals with matter directly and clears all the mess for him.

[GoldenAsif]

Re: Loaded Topic…

‘Sir’ Jadeja is Dhoni’s discovery

[Captain1]

Re: Loaded Topic…

@Jolie

Dhoni has received fair bit of criticism for his friendship with Kholi, Bhaji, Yuvraj in the past. Plus he had his own issues with some of the senior players. It’s just he’s blessed to have a board that takes over and deals with matter directly and clears all the mess for him.

If a player/captain performs then boards usually support him. Think about how much Shoaib Akhtar was pampered

[GoldenAsif]

Re: Loaded Topic…

@Jolie

Dhoni has received fair bit of criticism for his friendship with Kholi, Bhaji, Yuvraj in the past. Plus he had his own issues with some of the senior players. It’s just he’s blessed to have a board that takes over and deals with matter directly and clears all the mess for him.

add ‘Sir’ Jadeja to the list of names. Struggled initially, became the butt of facebook & twitter jokes..

“When you give Sir Ravindra Jadeja one ball to get 2 runs he will win it with one ball to spare !!” Dhoni once joked about Jadeja’s bowling on his twitter page

Everyone in India wanted him out but Dhoni saw something in Jadeja and backed him fully, now Jadeja is a much improved bowler and an integral part of India’s limited overs team.

[Jolie]

Re: Loaded Topic…

@Captain1

If a player/captain performs then boards usually support him. Think about how much Shoaib Akhtar was pampered

Knowing Akhtar, I doubt he’d agree with this. lol

[Some1]

Re: Loaded Topic…

@GoldenAsif

Welcome!

I know people don’t like to admit it but Pakistan were very very lucky in the 1992 WC Final as well. Miandad was twice plumb LBW against Pringle (not given by Bucknor), then Imran’s easy catch missed by Gooch, a sitter (he would have caught that 9 times out of 10). Pakistan could easily have been 40 odd for 4 and the game would have been over. Malik was short on confidence and form in that tournament.

Without that crucial 139-run partnership between Miandad and Imran, Pakistan could have easily folded for 150 odd and Wasim’s magical spell with the ball wouldn’t have even come into the equation!!! Both rescued Pakistan with another responsible backs-to-the-wall 112-run partnership (Pak were 38/3 chasing 268 for victory) against Australia in the 1987 World Cup semi-final in Lahore. Pakistan were very much in that game until Miandad was bowled by Reid for a quite magnificent 70 under pressure.

Very commendable post and not because you agreed with me.

Unfortunately, most people only remember match outcomes and not how they were achieved. Only a true cricket connoisseur can go beyond the emotions and the euphoria of a positive match result (esp one that is as big as a World Cup victory).

India’s 1983 World Cup victory was a big fluke. From almost losing to Zimbabwe in a group match to winning the world cup final against the vaunted West Indies after setting a meagre 184 runs in 60 (not 50) overs target. West Indies toured India immediately after and handed India their backside on their own turf (winning all ODIs). Nobody will remember that. They only remember “Kapil’s Devils”.

This is called “Partial Amnesia” in medical parlance I think.

[GoldenAsif]

Re: Loaded Topic…

Thanks. My cousin and I often wonder how lucky we were that day esp. the dropped IK catch (it was a dolly) + those 2 close LBW shouts against Miandad (one of them looked dead plumb). We watched the game together in North London. Time flies…