Loaded Topic...

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1

I knew it was a loaded topic…and probably demands a separate thread.

Again, if intention is to keep saying that it was just another off day or other teams did equally bad, fine…go ahead…but you know very well that no one crumbles under pressure the way we do and that too for a very very long time…and now other teams are openly talking abt it and trying to take advantage of it…so the question is what can we do to address the issue

at least we can look at it and try to find some trends…that is all…no name calling please!

if you guys really think that PD was suggesting to stop selecting players if they are not properly educated… then for god sake, you really need to think again…lol plz!

Ofcourse players should always be selected purely based on talent and nothing else … that is a given

but we have an issue and just like what we do in consulting projects (and no i am not a consultant for god sake ..i am an M&A guy..so dont label me as another consultant lol)..we try to deduct some trends and then correlate it with performance and try to reason it… that is all i am doing..trying to look at the mental weakness issue with a certain perspective ( an issue which is getting worst now)

so what is data telling us…it shows that Pakistani team mix has been shifted dramatically from urban base to rural base…

50s to 80s, kardar, fazal , imtiaz mahmood, imrann khan, majid, zaheer, asif iqbal, inthikan alam, wasim bari, iqbal qasim, wasim raja, taslim yusaf and the list goes on and on…almost 90% of our teams used to come from urban base..i am not saying it is good or bad..i am pointing out a trend…

around mid 80s it started to shift…gradually towards rural base…salim malik, ijaz ahmad, inzi, mustaq ahmaad, abdul qadir, salim ysusaf, waqar, aaqib javed., ata rehman, basit ali, yousaf youhana…but we also had wasim akram, ramiz raja, aamir sohail, rashid laatif…so teams had some balance

and then starting 2005 mix completely shifted towards rural base…hafeez, mohammad aamir, M. asif, kamran akmal, umar akmal, ahmad shezad, mohaammad hafiz, gul, saeed ajmal, malik ..with some exceptions ofcourse.

now that is a reality…shift of the base…it would be so interesting to actually take some data (important matches lost, lost batting second, sudden collapse etc) and plot against these 3 time zones and i can guarantee you that you will see some correlation…in last 10 years our team’s ability to think strategically, make fast decisions in the field, perform under pressure, sudden collapses… all have become worst…it was never great but it is becoming worst

that does not mean at all, that I am saying to stop selecting players from urban base … that is plain stupidity if you think that way… but we definitely need to train these players mentally as well…you will not believe me but some of them can hardly read and write. I do not expect from these players to think strategically…

away, sick of keep hearing comments, oh we are mentally weak…ok fine try to address issue…do something abt i

that is all

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Re: Loaded Topic...

and there will always be exceptions
Minadad...the best one...most smart and shrewd cricketer and street smart

but in diucssions like this one, you talk about massive trends not exceptions

and no one is saying we need educated players so to speak....so stop and dont deviate discussion

FIND THE BEST TALENT WHEREVER IT IS....villages, ponds, graveyyards, cities....does not matter but the point is we need to work on mental aspect ...i feel our dressing room is too one dimensional with very little strategic thinking, little mental strength, no ability to adapt..or to think out of box...thy are all from same background

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Re: Loaded Topic...

In my humble opinion, what is missing in Pak cricket is good role models in the form of senior, experienced players. The talent is there, but it needs honing and direction, which senior team members can provide. Unfortunately a lot of seniors themselves have uncertain futures, or are not putting their country first.

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Re: Loaded Topic...

sure ...

look talent is simply god gifted and we need to grab it all the time

but leadership and thought leadership is a different play...some of the thought leaders that we saw in sri lanka and india are players with good grooming ..ranatunga, sangakara, jaywardna, dravid and what not....

we need some players in the dressing room who can actually analyze situations before the game, during the game, strategize it.....dont fall for petty racial games... life themselves and provide leadership...

misbah has done such a great job because of his better background and we can see it..

and guys it is not abt your talent as a sportsman....i am not saying that educated players will be better btasmen..LOL....for god sake

i am talking abt social skills, soft skills, strategic skills, mgmt skills.....we need to prepare our players or at least core for these qualities because hey have none ... usually it is a long process and education of 12-15 years give you some of it slowly but gradually

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Re: Loaded Topic...

I didn't know Lahore, Sialkot, Faislabad are classified as rural areas.

It's okay PD, you can use the term working class.

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Re: Loaded Topic...

lo karo analyze:

Batting 1st 1975-1986
26 won
33 lost

Chasing 1975-1986
25 won
26 lost

Chasing 1986-2003
118 won
91 lost

Batting 1st 1986-2003
152 won
105 lost

Chasing 2004-2014
68 won
56 lost

Batting 1st 2004-2014
60 won
50 lost

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Re: Loaded Topic…

Restored attachments:

CricketChaseAnalysis.jpg
CricketChaseAnalysis.jpg800×600 30.9 KB

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Re: Loaded Topic...

you are the best..that is exactly what my intention was...try to go deep and see some trend

so clearly we did better in 1986-2003

chasing 2004-2014 seems odd...i am sure many of these chasing wins 2004-14 got Bangladesh, ICC associates, Zimb type matches baked in there. Strip them out and we may not be doing that well..we have started to play against minnows much more often than we used to do post 2000

plus issue of mental weakness or crumble in big matches is a bit hard to quantify but at least we are trying to see some trend

thx for the data

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Re: Loaded Topic...

Jolie...dont!

Anyway, here is my vision for Pakistan Cricket...be one of THE BEST like WI of 80s and Aussies of 90s....seems wishful, sure but that is the vision..so you obviously need a clive loyd!

for that i need an exceptional leader and at least 2-3 mature thoughtful players but when I look around i find mohammad haffeez, mohmmad aamir, mohammd irfan, momammad asif, umar akmal, saeed ajmal, shezad, kamran akmal, shoaib malik, junaid khan, umar gul and on and on......

now some of them are exceptionally talented (saeed ajmal, aamir, asif, shezad, umar akmal etc) but none of of them have it what it takes to lead in today's modern cricket...my younger brother played some serious cricket and knows many pakistani players of 2000s and he told me that many of these players hardly know how to read urdu...

they have no one in the dressing room to look up to, who can think strategically and use them to their best potential...many of these players simply say in team meetings "allah malik hai....jo ho ga dekha jayee ga".... they cant think or strategize beyond a limit...you need someone to look into their eyes and tell Allah to hai hee ha... butyou own your freakin goddamn luck tomorrow in the ground..and then sit with them and strategize each and every angle of the game

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Re: Loaded Topic…

now speaking of salman butt..

guys dont confuse the topic…what butt did was morally pathetic but we are talking about leadership and mental strength to lead the team in the ground…now tell you what…Pakistan had lost 11 consecutive test matches to Aus when Butt took over (and 4 in last 12 months)…with the exact same team, he kicked Aussies ass and defeated them in the very first test match in tough english conditions…BOOM..take that ponting

and then with the same team he kicked english ass and won the test match for pak on English soil

http://www.espncricinfo.com/england-v-pakistan-2010/engine/match/426415.html

actually butt is a great example of what i am saying…mediocre player but much smarter, confident, media savvy, shrewd, and hence led the team well and started to give results right away… too bad he was morally corrupt
youhanna much much better player than him was his predecessor and was a complete disaster!

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Re: Loaded Topic…

making big deal of the two matches he won as a captain the main credit for which should go to two jahils uneducated, Aamir and Asif and not Salman. Yes he was smart and savvy when it came to sattay baazi. An atttempt to make him look good just because he has a degree and ignoring the fact that what he did landed him in jail and that he is a convicted criminal. Yes very smart and savvy.

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Okay!

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Re: Loaded Topic...

oh sure...yeah why not!!

like aamir and asif were not playing all 4 test matches that we lost miserably to Aus under yousaf (one under afridi)...for sure they were playing. Ajeeb baat hai

lets keep things separate sir jee...no one is glorifying Butt for his heinous act and for which he ended up in jail thankfully. God knows i dont want him back for what did but you are very smartly mixing up the stuff.

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Re: Loaded Topic...

off topic but why don't you have same attitude for amir, he did the same when everyone is ready to forgive amir than why not others

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Re: Loaded Topic…

1975-1986 era:

[TABLE=“class: grid, width: 865”]

[TABLE]
[TR=“class: grid”]
Grouping

Span
Mat
Won
Lost
Tied
NR
W/L
Ave
RPO
Inns
HS
LS
[/TR]

v Australia
1975-1986
17
8
7
0
2
1.14
29.36
4.32
17
286
140

v Bangladesh
1986-1986
1
1
0
0
0

32.66
3.04
1
98

v Canada
1979-1979
1
1
0
0
0

70
3.48
1
140

v England
1977-1985
14
4
10
0
0
0.4
23.32
3.63
14
250
85

v India
1978-1986
18
9
8
0
1
1.12
27.77
4.48
17
263
87

v New Zealand
1976-1986
13
6
6
0
1
1
28.06
4.45
13
261
186

v Sri Lanka
1975-1986
17
13
3
0
1
4.33
36.69
4.93
17
338
197

v West Indies
1975-1986
31
7
24
0
0
0.29
24.77
3.86
31
266
113

1986-2003 era:
[TABLE=“class: grid, width: 865”]

[TABLE]
[TR=“class: grid”]
Grouping

Span
Mat
Won
Lost
Tied
NR
W/L
Ave
RPO
Inns
HS
LS
[/TR]

v Australia
1986-2003
51
19
30
1
1
0.63
24.4
4.38
51
315
108

v Bangladesh
1986-2003
16
15
1
0
0
15
46
5.37
16
323
161

v England
1987-2003
37
15
21
0
1
0.71
28.76
4.43
37
323
74

v India
1986-2003
70
45
22
0
3
2.04
31.69
5
70
327
116

v Kenya
1996-2003
4
4
0
0
0

32.6
4.61
4
286

v Namibia
2003-2003
1
1
0
0
0

28.33
5.1
1
255

v Netherlands
1996-2003
3
3
0
0
0

45.5
5.62
3
253

v New Zealand
1986-2003
60
42
17
1
0
2.47
32.54
4.64
60
328
116

v Scotland
1999-1999
1
1
0
0
0

43.5
5.22
1
261

v South Africa
1992-2003
41
13
28
0
0
0.46
24.81
4.45
41
335
109

v Sri Lanka
1986-2003
88
51
34
1
2
1.5
31.76
4.81
88
371
131

v U.A.E.
1994-1996
2
2
0
0
0

129
6.26
2
146

v West Indies
1986-2002
74
31
41
2
0
0.75
26.57
4.35
74
294
43

v Zimbabwe
1992-2003
32
28
2
1
1
14
39.25
5.1
32
344
148

2004-2014 era:
[TABLE=“class: grid, width: 865”]

[TABLE]
[TR=“class: grid”]
Grouping

Span
Mat
Won
Lost
Tied
NR
W/L
Ave
RPO
Inns
HS
LS
[/TR]

v Afghanistan
2012-2014
2
2
0
0
0

40.54
5.11
2
248

v Australia
2004-2012
22
5
17
0
0
0.29
25.21
4.57
22
274
127

v Bangladesh
2004-2014
16
16
0
0
0

38.09
5.57
16
385
177

v Canada
2011-2011
1
1
0
0
0

18.4
4.27
1
184
184

v England
2005-2012
19
7
11
0
1
0.63
27.55
4.93
19
353
130

v Hong Kong
2004-2008
2
2
0
0
0

45.07
6.31
2
343

v India
2004-2014
40
20
20
0
0
1
34.74
5.53
40
344
157

v Ireland
2007-2013
5
3
1
1
0
3
31.19
4.44
5
266
132

v Kenya
2004-2011
2
2
0
0
0

41.2
6
2
317

v New Zealand
2004-2011
17
5
11
0
1
0.45
26.48
4.99
17
303
124

v Scotland
2006-2013
2
2
0
0
0

36.33
4.64
2
231

v South Africa
2006-2013
30
10
19
0
1
0.52
24.05
4.73
30
351
89

v Sri Lanka
2004-2014
40
20
18
0
2
1.11
31.28
4.95
40
326
75

v West Indies
2004-2013
28
19
8
1
0
2.37
31.42
4.81
28
307
131

v Zimbabwe
2004-2013
15
14
1
0
0
14
48.16
5.58
15
349
349

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Re: Loaded Topic…

awesome..you are the man!

did it really fast using brain cells!!! so apologies for any mistakes

so stripping out BD, Zim and all other associates:

1986-2003
total Played 412 matches
won 216 matches
Won 53%

2004-2014
Played 192
Won 86
Won 45%

so my observation was directionally correct…2004-14 vs 1986-2003; our win ratio has dropped from 53% to 45%… and the way we are performing against good teams these days, by 2021 I doubt our overall win margin will be more than 35%

and once misbah retires, it will be a bigger ****show.

we dont have the data but if we compare “batting second” option after stripping BD, ZIM, and associates, it will be even more worst 2004-14 vs 1986-2003

thx kaptan jee! you shd be my analyst/aasociate!

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Re: Loaded Topic...

is it just me or someone like inzi would really help? i know his record in aus/sa/england isn't good but that guy almost always played good in big games/moments. Always had a good structure to his innings esp chasing a target.

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Re: Loaded Topic...

BUTT also had mohammad amir/asif on his team. makes a huge difference

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Re: Loaded Topic...

thread dobara parho

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ODI Era 1:
Played 97, won 41, lost 52 (ignoring BD, Canada)

ODI Era 2:
Played 421, won 216, lost 193 (ignoring BD, Kenya, Namiba, Scotlan, UAE, ZIM)

ODIE Era 3:
Played 196, won 86, lost 104 (ignoring Afg, BD, Can, HK, Ire, Ken, Scot, Zim)

Now in era 1 it was WI time if we ignore WI we played 66, won 34, lost 28
Era 2 WI was fading and Aus was picking up so we keep the results as they are
In Era 3 it was Aus power time, if we ignore Aus we played 174, won 81, lost 87

Again, these era were made up by myself considering beginning of ODI. Era 1 included IK, Javed Miandad, Abdul Qadir and many others. Era 2 included Wasim, Waqar, Saqlain, Saeed Anwar, Inzi, Saleem Malik, Shoaib Akhtar, Saqlain, Mushtaq etc.. Era 3 included fading Inzi, Yousuf, fading Shoaib Akhtar, parts of Aamir, Asif.

In my opinion Era 2 had just too many brilliant ODI players both bowlers and batsmen compared to post 2003 and not all of them were intellectuals/brilliant as captain/tactician. I could be wrong.