light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju' ilal-Allah ?

[TLK]

Re: light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju' ilal-Allah ?

@Aceones

its purely a Christian and Jewish Religious practice not a cultural thing.

No its not bro. Mazaaraon, dargaahon aur qabron pe diye, chiragh aur agar batti tou hamaaray culture main bhi bohut aam hain

[Aceones]

Re: light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju’ ilal-Allah ?

@TLK

Ulema ka jawaab tou iss pe munhasir hai ke hum oon se sawaaal kaisay poochtay hain. Candlelight Vigil is not a replacement of fateha and dua. Its a way of universal way of showing your respect to a cause or a suffering. Its a message for the love ones that we are with you. Mera nahi kahyaal ke yeah koi biddat hai, na hi yeah kisi quom ke mazahabi tareeqon kee pairvee hai.

In fact if you think of it, roshni is a symbol of eliminating zulm ke andharay. Its just a way of raising your voice against the unjust. If you think if it that way, its 100% in line with the hadees of Prophet Mohammed where he described three ways of how to fight unjust (Talwaar, zabaan, ya kam az kam dil main hee buraa samajhnaa)

a little research and it turns out to be a religious practice

[Aceones]

Re: light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju' ilal-Allah ?

@TLK

No its not bro. Mazaaraon, dargaahon aur qabron pe diye, chiragh aur agar batti tou hamaaray culture main bhi bohut aam hain

Brother, i would like to take your word for it. but unfortunately wherever i searched, its roots ended up in religion other than Islam.
hamaray mazaroon par jo diye jalaye jatay hain aur doosri jo practices hoti hain, unkay baray main aap yaqeenan mujhsay behtar jantay hain.

[TLK]

Re: light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju' ilal-Allah ?

a little research and it turns out to be a religious practice

It could be. Everything that is a rasam and riwaaj of any society probably has some religious ties, because after all, till only couple of hundred years ago, religion and culture were one and all for almost every society.

[muqawwee123]

Re: light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju' ilal-Allah ?

It could be. Everything that is a rasam and riwaaj of any society probably has some religious ties, because after all, till only couple of hundred years ago, religion and culture were one and all for almost every society.

Exactly. Lighting and burning fire was a custom in all the cultures to keep ferocious animals away. It was a symbol for finding way / guidance in old times. Remember story of Musa (AS) in Quran:

When he saw a fire and said to his family, "Stay here; indeed, I have perceived a fire; perhaps I can bring you a torch or find at the fire some guidance."

20:10

[Aceones]

Re: light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju' ilal-Allah ?

^ : S maroon ghutna pootay aankh wali bat hogai

[muqawwee123]

Re: light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju' ilal-Allah ?

^ : S maroon ghutna pootay aankh wali bat hogai

wo kaise? almost all rituals in religions across the world have cultural impact. Even doing iftar with khajoor got Arabic cultural roots as it was the easily available best food in Arab.

[Aceones]

Re: light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju' ilal-Allah ?

^ chalain thik hay, i have nothing more to say.

[Muzna]

Re: light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju’ ilal-Allah ?

@Aceones

dost, awwal to ghaibana namaz-e-janaza ka kahin zikar nahi huwa thread main, lekin aap khud jantay hain kisko kitni coverage mili. aur baat coverage ki hay hi nahi, jis ALLAH say maafi aur madad mangi jati hay wo media coverage ka mohtaj nahi hay, wo apnay ghar main bethay fateha parhnay walay ko bhi janta hay aur candle-light vigil walay ko bhi. bat nabi kay tareeqay ki hay. aur dua mangnay ka, ijtemai-astaghfar ka jo tareeqa ALLAH kay nabi S.A.W. nay btaya hay, koi doosra tareeqa usko replace nahi kar sakta

beshak aap sahi hain.
magar kissi nay replace karnay ki baat nahin ki tau objection kya hai?

@Aceones

From wiki: Vigil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I know Wikipedia is not an authentic source, but its good enough for a generic reference like this one, its not a research paper.
point is, its not a cultural thing, its a religious thing which we are introducing in our culture, and slowly it will creep into religious practices just like things we do on Milaad-e-nabawi and Aashoora-e-moharram. and dont tell me we report it as “aaj mulk main xyz saqafati jazbay say manaya gya” we say “aaj mulk main xyz mazhabi josh-o-jazbay say manaya gaya” and thats how deen changes, not in one day, in 100s of years.

by the way, i for one didnt even know this word vigil till last year, people did this practice before, but this has just become viral in pakistan now.

as far as I can understand the objection is that we should not incorporate new rituals into our deen.
I’m sure that we haven’t done that either.
nobody sat with the bodies with candles…nobody is making a practice of lighting candles each time someone passes…
we are simply speaking in a language that the global community, which is comprised of various faiths, understands.
we are expressing our grief and showing our solidarity with the victims’ loved ones.
surely showing compassion and offering comfort to the suffering cannot be wrong.

(btw…I recall many Muslims do not leave a dead body unattended either…)

@Aceones

secondly, ghaibana namaz-e-janaza is no response way of collective repentance. and don’t know if its ok to say or not, but har kisi nay apni dairh eent ki masjid bhi banai hui hay, most of these people who offered ghaibana namaz-e-janaza at their own places they could have easily joined namaz-e-janaza in Peshawar itself.

JI nay apnay markaz par ada ki, IK sahab nay D Chowk main aakar, aur N$ nay shaid kaheen shamil hona munasib hi nahi samjha. Even though they all were in Peshawar that day, and could have joined prayer in Peshawar just like COAS did.
but then many will say its easy to criticize and “what you have done that you are criticizing them?” so i better leave it here.

once again, I agree with you on all but the last line.
I don’t think that anyone should object to such discussions or turn the tables and ask what you have done because only through such interaction will we be reminded that we should not allow changes to our deen…only through gentle voices like yours’ and the OP’s will we remember to draw the line between traditions/rituals and Islam.

[Aceones]

Re: light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju' ilal-Allah ?

beshak aap sahi hain. magar kissi nay replace karnay ki baat nahin ki tau objection kya hai?

my point was not about mere replacement, but choosing the best way of collective repentance and showing solidarity with the victims.

if we were to show solidarity for people of other faiths and culture i could understand choosing a global way because they may not understand our way. but here victims are our own people, belong to our own country and our religion. are we showing solidarity to the victims or the world?

[Muzna]

Re: light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju' ilal-Allah ?

my point was not about mere replacement, but choosing the best way of collective repentance and showing solidarity with the victims.

I think we have no choice but to follow the prescribed method for repentance.

if we were to show solidarity for people of other faiths and culture i could understand choosing a global way because they may not understand our way. but here victims are our own people, belong to our own country and our religion. are we showing solidarity to the victims or the world?

by doing the dua and having khatms we show our own people that we are with them
by lighting candles we show the world that Pakistanis around the world stand together at a time of grief.

both are necessary.

another question just came to mind....
what about laying flowers on a grave....what is the background on that?

[TLK]

Re: light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju' ilal-Allah ?

another question just came to mind.... what about laying flowers on a grave....what is the background on that?

in our religion, it probably stemmed from the (mis)belief that any possible punishment inside the grave will remain at halt till the flowers are fresh.

[Aceones]

Re: light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju' ilal-Allah ?

by doing the dua and having khatms we show our own people that we are with them by lighting candles we show the world that Pakistanis around the world stand together at a time of grief.

both are necessary.

i was talking about people who do vigil in Pakistan, its exceedingly getting popular.

another question just came to mind.... what about laying flowers on a grave....what is the background on that?

many people give reference of a hadees for this practice
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) passed by two graves and said: “They are being punished, but they are not being punished for something that was difficult to avoid. One of them used not to take precautions to avoid (his body or clothes being soiled by) urine, and the other used to walk around spreading malicious gossip.” Then he took a fresh palm-leaf stalk and split it in two, and placed one piece on each of the two graves. They said: O Messenger of Allaah, why did you do that?” He said: “Perhaps the torment will be reduced for them so long as this does not dry out.” al-Bukhaari (218) and Muslim (292)

but ulema karam saay that it was a one-off occasion, Rasool Allah (S.A.W.) never repeated it after this for anyone else
also some say it was the barakah of Rasool Allah (S.A.W.) hand which placed the leaf on grave, not a property of leaf itself.

but then covering whole grave with flowers and expensive decorated chadars is nothing but israaf. if someone has to follow sunnah, do it the sunnah way.

[P_G]

Re: light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju' ilal-Allah ?

Tlk n Muqawwee123> . .ap döno nay candle jalanay par jo dalaail deye hain .us main yeh point bi shaamil kar lain k jub bijjli jate ho to bhi hum candel jaltay hain. . Jub birthday cake kat'tay hain tub bi hum candel jalatay hain or candel light dinner main bi candel jalatay hain ..:bang head

[Muzna]

Re: light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju' ilal-Allah ?

i was talking about people who do vigil in Pakistan, its exceedingly getting popular.

I understand your concern and I can see how this may lead down the path that you are referring to.

I would console myself by saying that as long as they are also fulfilling the "prescribed" requirements, having a vigil at the time of tremendous tragedy to show solidarity to the world is not interfering with the deen. However, I am not an authority and this is nothing more than merely my opinion. Allah knows best.

many people give reference of a hadees for this practice The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) passed by two graves and said: “They are being punished, but they are not being punished for something that was difficult to avoid. One of them used not to take precautions to avoid (his body or clothes being soiled by) urine, and the other used to walk around spreading malicious gossip.” Then he took a fresh palm-leaf stalk and split it in two, and placed one piece on each of the two graves. They said: O Messenger of Allaah, why did you do that?” He said: “Perhaps the torment will be reduced for them so long as this does not dry out.” al-Bukhaari (218) and Muslim (292)

but ulema karam saay that it was a one-off occasion, Rasool Allah (S.A.W.) never repeated it after this for anyone else also some say it was the barakah of Rasool Allah (S.A.W.) hand which placed the leaf on grave, not a property of leaf itself.

but then covering whole grave with flowers and expensive decorated chadars is nothing but israaf. if someone has to follow sunnah, do it the sunnah way.

Thank you for this explanation.
And I have to agree with the suggestion that it was the barakah of the Rasool (pbuh) that caused relief rather than the leaf itself. Allah knows best.

[P_G]

Re: light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju' ilal-Allah ?

1> i m not saying this is Bidda't ..or haraam or gunaaah or religious practice

2> mainay yeh first time daikha tha ....or main is per sub ki raaye janna chah 'tee thee ( yeh jawab mahool k ley hay jin ko laga k main issue bana rahee hoon ..halnkay GS main mainay ayse koi pabandee nahi dekhee..her koi bat kernay main azaad hai ...)

3> mera sawal sirf yeh hay k is waqt pareshani ya affat hamare qoom per hai humain agar kuch kerna hai to sub say pehlay ALLAh say nusrat or Aafiat talab kerna hay

Unity humain is waqt Allah ko dikhanee hai ...DUNIA ko nahi ....app agar kisi dosray mazhab ya mulk k kisi saanihay per un kay sath unity show kerna chahtay hain to yeh bat samjh aata hay k GLOBAl Expression hai ....lakin yahan app k MUSLMAN bachay shaheed hoyee hai ..APP k Muslman behan bhaaioon k Ghar saf-e-matam bicha hay app is waqt UN k ley apnaee QOOM k ley kcuh kerna chahtay hain to app wohe kerain jo is waqt APP ka mazhab app ko sikha raha hai

hamaray mazhab Moot k sanihay per kafan dafan janaza sog khana peena her her cheez is moqay per humain sikha raha hai

ab aysee kon see kammi hay hamaray Diloon main k humain yeh sub ker k Aytmanan nahi ho raha jub tak hum Maghrib kuffar k raaij kerda tareeqay ko GLOBEL EXPRESSION k nam per apnay Culture main apna nahi laytay

*mazhab main her cheez farz wajib k hukam main nahi hotee lakin pasandeeda or Afzal k hukam main bhi hai
*
or yeh kehna k fatiha ,duaain bhi keen or yeh bhi kia takay Duniya main Unity show ho ...to UNITY show kernay k ley app apnee Masajid or Duaaon k manazir bhi MEDIA per dikha dain ...

kia is say UNITY show nahi hoteee?

ajj app ka culture hay kal anay wale NAsal k ley yehee sawab ka kam ho ga....

jaysay culture k nam per Valentine Muhabbat k izhar ka tareeqa ban gaya ..ab yeh naye cheez Gham k izhar ka tareeqa ban gaya ...

jaisa k main hazrat Nooh alyhi salam k qoom ka waqia bayan ker chuke hoon !

[TLK]

@P_G:10212903

3> mera sawal sirf yeh hay k is waqt pareshani ya affat hamare qoom per hai humain agar kuch kerna hai to sub say pehlay ALLAh say nusrat or Aafiat talab kerna hay
!

Is baat pe tou ikhtelaaf ho hee nahi saktaa. Is baat pe yaqeen tou hamaaray eeman ke darjay main shamil hai

[P_G]

Re: light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju’ ilal-Allah ?

@TLK

Ulema ka jawaab tou iss pe munhasir hai ke hum oon se sawaaal kaisay poochtay hain. Candlelight Vigil is not a replacement of fateha and dua. Its a way of universal way of showing your respect to a cause or a suffering. Its a message for the love ones that we are with you. Mera nahi kahyaal ke yeah koi biddat hai, na hi yeah kisi quom ke mazahabi tareeqon kee pairvee hai.

In fact if you think of it, roshni is a symbol of eliminating zulm ke andharay. Its just a way of raising your voice against the unjust. If you think if it that way, its 100% in line with the hadees of Prophet Mohammed where he described three ways of how to fight unjust (Talwaar, zabaan, ya kam az kam dil main hee buraa samajhnaa)

acha to talwar ya zaban ya dil ..is candil light Vigil main ko say hissay per ammal hoa ?

agar app thore see tawajhu dain to app mera nuqat-e-nazar ki hassasiyat ko shaid samjh paain …let me clear again is ko gunah haram biddat nahi keh rahee…

jub Azan ka tareeqa raaij hoa to app k ilm woh hadees ho gee k sub nay mashwera dia k dhhol baja ker namaz ka aylan ho kisi ay kaha Aag jalaye jayee kisi nay kuch ..lakin woh sub kuffar ki tareeqay thay ,Nabil Salal Allaho Alyhi wasalm nay sub ko isee BUNYAAD per rad k … or AZAN ka tareeqa raaij hoa

[Muzna]

Re: light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju' ilal-Allah ?

but again we are focusing on differentiating......that was necessary when the new method being prescribed was a change to the way we practised the faith.

in this case we are not changing the faith....we have already agreed upon following the rules laid out in our deen that differentiate us......we have already done the salats and the duas.

please help me understand.
it sounds to me like you are saying that we should do nothing except that which has been prescribed even if it does not interfere with our faith.

is this correct?
if yes, then please suggest a practical alternative for those that live in a community where they are either a minority or where interaction with people from various faiths is a daily way of life.....

[TLK]

Re: light a candle in memory of victims or Ruju' ilal-Allah ?

acha to talwar ya zaban ya dil ..is candil light Vigil main ko say hissay per ammal hoa ?

Zaban pe.

Its a universal language. Just like tou dont say that I will not use english words, kyun ke ye kuffar kee language hai, similarly lightning candles is a universal symbol for reaction against suffering