Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
'Bloody Civilians' are not allowed to interfere.
The Intermediate pass intellectuals are not qualified for this.
So we face the same from Operation Gibraltar of 1965 up to this era.
Rememeber Qasab and Raymond.
Same story every time.
Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
Most articles are now saying Afghanistan. Some are also suggesting that Pakistani Jets were alerted and scrambled.
This seems to tow the official line of BOTH nations, so the real question is what evidence is there to suggest otherwise?
This does not bode well for Pakistan. It's soverignty violated, it's army possibly humiliated in the worse possible way. If indeed these helicopters were flown in from Afghanistan, and pak jets were scrambled, then why were these helicopters not shot down as a matter of reflex?
It makes no sense that Pakistanis wish to hide their involvement to placate militant groups...you know, the groups who bomb with impunity and for little or no cause.
I think we need to look at a cold hard possibility: the much mythologized pak military is a paper tiger, incapable of defending the nation. It's perhaps no better than Saddam's army. It's all too apparent that even the Indians, with a few more years, will possess the capability to emulate this sort of raid, probably targeting facilities with real value to Pakistan.
Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
Military is not serious since it is filled with the same extremist deobandi / wahabbi taliban & alqaeda that they have to fight. Pakistanis have yet to own Pakistan, instead of living in it like a hotel, and understand that islamofascism is one of the things that has to be eliminated before Pakistan can grow.
But forget it, nothing is going to change right now.
'Islamofacism'? You sound like the average moron from the fox network. And please, spare us the use of the term fascism lest you start another runaway thread on the meaning of the term.
Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
'Islamofacism'? You sound like the average moron from the fox network. And please, spare us the use of the term fascism lest you start another runaway thread on the meaning of the term.
If this extremism is not fascism with an "islamic" bent given to it by its supporters, then what is it? Don't try to attack the messenger, as it won't solve any problems for Pakistan or for the 1 billion muslims / ants who get crushed by everyone around them.
Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
^ we’ve been through this discussion when idiots tried to popularize the equally vacuous phrase ‘secular fascist’. fascism isnt just people we dont like. it has a particular meaning that does not correspond with most of the goals of Islamists. a more thorough commentary here.
back on topic, Haqqani promises intelligence review. Hope its not just lip service (as it most likely is)
http://www.dawn.com/2011/05/03/haqqani-promises-bin-laden-intel-inquiry.html
Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
'Bloody Civilians' are not allowed to interfere. The Intermediate pass intellectuals are not qualified for this. So we face the same from Operation Gibraltar of 1965 up to this era. Rememeber Qasab and Raymond. Same story every time.
Can "bloody civilians" atleast make a statement? Or are they out of testosterone enough to say it? Truth is those civilians who can make a difference (read govt) are in the same bed but for different reasons. Military is in bed for "strategic plan" while civilians are in for the cha-ching $$$.
Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
You are right .
But correct it .cha-ching $$$.is common
See the bad results for us.
Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
a good description of the events, describing both the (limited) pakistani involvement, and specifying the base where they launched from as in afghanistan:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704569404576299500647391240.html?mod=
Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
^ good read, thanks for posting it
Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
Can you copy and paste the article for people who dont have membership at ssj site?
Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
Here you go
**
U.S. Rolled Dice in bin Laden Raid**
**
As two Black Hawk helicopters packed with American special forces skimmed their way across a moonless sky toward Osama bin Laden's lair, the mission's planners still weren't even sure their target lived there.
Some of the analysts who assessed the intelligence put the chances as low as 60%.**
President Barack Obama had also chosen a risky attack option: A direct raid on the house, deep within Pakistan—potentially putting American fighters in face-to-face combat within a maze-like compound—instead of simply bombing the place from a stealth aircraft.
In Abbottabad, a prosperous enclave an hour's drive outside of Islamabad, the helicopters came in low Sunday over the sprawling property, spread over an acre of lush farmland covered with eucalyptus trees. At its center, a three-story building stands, surrounded by concrete walls some 14 feet high and topped by barbed wire and security cameras.
One helicopter was badly damaged after hitting the ground hard in a "vortex" created by the high walls—a heart-stopping moment that encapsulated the U.S.'s biggest fears about the mission.
The team of about two dozen U.S. Special Operations Forces spent 40 minutes, with guns blazing, charging through each of the structures on the property. Bin Laden and his family were found on the second and third floors of the large main structure, the final building to be searched.
According to U.S. officials, bin Laden tried to defend himself before being shot through the left eye. One of the team sent word to the U.S. that "Geronimo"—the code name for bin Laden—was believed to have been killed in action.
After a decade of frustration, chasing bin Laden's shadow from the caves of southern Afghanistan to the lawless provinces of eastern Pakistan, the risky decision by U.S. officials to attack the Pakistani compound had proven its worth. An examination of the American decision shows the extent to which it was built on months of tenacious planning, but that ultimately, it came down to gut instinct.
"What swayed people was there was no other plausible explanation" for who else might be living there, one U.S. official said. The other possibility, some said, was al Qaeda No. 2 Ayman al-Zawahiri.
In December, the Central Intelligence Agency called a secret meeting with lawmakers to line up tens of millions of dollars in funding, kicking off a five-month scramble that climaxed in Sunday's events. This account is based on interviews and briefings with nearly a dozen officials from the White House, intelligence agencies, Pentagon and Congress.
**Clearly, the focus of the U.S. spy community's interest—the walled compound in Abbottabad—was built to shelter someone who didn't want to be seen. By last fall, the U.S. had figured out that most of its 22 residents were relatives of one of bin Laden's most trusted "couriers," a close confidant responsible for shuttling messages among al Qaeda leaders and friends world-wide.
But there was also another family in the sprawling, three-story building, and it remained a deep mystery. Intelligence officials knew there was an adult male in there, but they couldn't catch a glimpse. He never stepped in to view.**
For more than a decade, the U.S. had sought bin Laden, and missed half a dozen times. Amid these frustrations, the seeds of last weekend's mission were sown.
In 2002 and 2003, not long after bin Laden had escaped in the cave-riddled mountains of Tora Bora in Afghanistan, interrogations of CIA detainees revealed the nom de guerre of one of his couriers. The man, who hasn't been named by U.S. officials, was a protégé of the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, and a trusted assistant aide to Abu Faraj al-Libbi, a former al Qaeda No. 3 previously captured.
The key tip on the courier came from an al-Qaeda operative apprehended in Iraq in 2004, Hassan Gul. Mr. Gul pointed to a man known as Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti. In the interrogations of Messrs. Mohammed and al-Libbi, the two Qaeda operatives appeared to go to great lengths to hide any connection to the courier, which indicated to intelligence officials that Mr. al-Kuwaiti was a key player.
It took several more years simply to learn the courier's real name. In 2007, CIA analysts finally obtained it. Still, the trail remained cold. Leon Panetta's first briefing on bin Laden as CIA chief, in February 2009, was discouraging. Spies around that time had "caught a glimpse" of the courier, who was working with his brother. But the two men had been extremely careful about covering their tracks.
The big break took more than a year.** In August 2010, the CIA was able to follow the courier directly to the place where he lived: the Abbottabad compound. Intelligence officials had locked on to him when he made a phone call to a number they were tracking.**
His property came in for intense scrutiny. Teams from the CIA, National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, and National Security Agency studied it with satellite and other surveillance equipment. Mr. Panetta got weekly updates.
Built in 2005, the compound was on the outskirts of the town center, at the end of a dirt road. The main three-story building had few windows facing outward. There was a terrace on the third floor with a seven-foot wall, preventing people from seeing inside.
"Once they saw it, they knew they were on to something," a U.S. official said.
Spies couldn't even rustle through the trash for clues. Unlike almost all the neighbors, the residents of the compound burned their garbage.
In September, Mr. Obama was told about the compound and informed that it might be housing valuable targets in the war on terror—the courier and his family, as well as the family of the courier's brother.
In addition, "There was a mysterious third family living there," a U.S. official said. "There was an adult male they couldn't visualize but knew he was there. There was also a female, potentially a wife and children, whose family matched Osama bin Laden's potential family." Members of the third family never left.
In November, Mr. Panetta directed the Counterterrorism Center to provide 10 proposals to gain better intelligence on who lived there. They delivered 38, but only a few were viable. "That was the balance, the more you creep in, the more you risk tipping him off," a U.S. official said.
Looming over the operation was an equally pressing worry: The U.S. might tip off the Pakistanis, who weren't deemed trustworthy enough to keep the secret. The Pakistanis had provided the U.S. some information on the courier, but may not have realized his significance, a U.S. official said. Some U.S. officials had long suspected elements of the Pakistani government or military were aiding bin Laden.
The evidence remained circumstantial. Nevertheless, in December, the CIA's Mr. Panetta decided the intelligence in hand was compelling enough to act. He called a secret meeting with lawmakers to seek tens of millions of dollars to fund a program aimed at intensive collection of intelligence about the property.
After Mr. Panetta secured the money from Congress in December, CIA analysts remained split on the likelihood bin Laden was even there. Some put the chances at 60%; others said 80%. Mr. Panetta struggled with the uncertainty, one official said, but concluded the American public would back an operation even if the odds were only 50-50.
**In February, Mr. Panetta believed it was time to begin planning an operation. He met with Vice Adm. William McRaven, who heads the military's special operations command, and asked for a small team to game out the options.
An early favorite: a bombing raid. That approach would minimize risk to American troops and maximize the likelihood of killing the residents of the compound. But it might also have destroyed any proof bin Laden was there.
A helicopter raid would be more complex, but more likely to deliver confirmation. Some officials were wary of repeating a fiasco like "Black Hawk Down" in Somalia, when U.S. forces were killed after a botched raid on a warlord.**
John Brennan, the White House chief counterterrorism adviser, said Obama advisers were divided given the risks, the circumstantial evidence, and the uncertainty about the true identities of all the residents. Top national-security advisers briefed the president in the Situation Room on March 14. They told him there was a high-value target at the compound, and most likely it was bin Laden.
"This is a go," Mr. Obama told the principals.
Two weeks later, Mr. Obama told his team he wanted them to start rehearsing a raid on the compound. The team built a mock-up of the compound in Afghanistan to test out dry runs of possible attacks.
**In April, Mr. Panetta was holding daily meetings. "This it the best lead we have," he told his team at one meeting. "We've got to find out what the hell is in that compound."
On April 19, Mr. Panetta told the president the CIA believed bin Laden was there. Other advisers briefed Mr. Obama on preparations for an assault, including the outcomes of the dress rehearsals. Mr. Obama told them to "assume it's a go for planning purposes and that we had to be ready," an administration official said.**
That same day, Mr. Obama gave provisional approval for the commando-style helicopter assault—which was launched from Jalalabad, Afghanistan—despite the added risk. Senior U.S. officials said the need to get a positive identification on bin Laden became the deciding factor.
At 8 a.m. Friday, April 29, in the White House Diplomatic Room, Mr. Obama summoned National Security Adviser Tom Donilan, Chief of Staff William Daley and Mr. Brennan, and authorized the operation.
Mr. Panetta called Adm. McRaven. "It's in your hands, friend," he told Adm. McRaven. "I wish you the best. All I can do is pray a hell of a lot."
On Sunday morning, Mr. Obama gave the mission a final go, after a 24-hour delay due to bad weather. Mr. Panetta went to church. Mr. Obama played nine holes of golf.
National Counterterrorism Center Director Michael Leiter, who got married on Saturday night in Washington, had to postpone his honeymoon due to the attack. Back in 2009, Mr. Leiter caught some flak when he took a planned ski vacation after the Christmas Day underwear-bombing attempt of a Detroit-bound airliner. (The White House defended Mr. Leiter's decision.)
As Sunday's operation unfolded, Mr. Panetta monitored it from his seventh-floor conference-room-turned-war-room. And at the White House, Mr. Obama and his top aides monitored the unfolding action in real time from the Situation Room. "The minutes passed like days," Mr. Brennan said.
**After the firefight, bin Laden's body was initially identified by members of the military strike force, and by a woman at the compound identified as one of his wives.
The assault team also had orders to remove items of intelligence value. "They picked up anything they could get their hands on," including computer hard drives, said a U.S. intelligence official. "They're being exploited to find anything we can on them."
Video footage on local TV following the attack showed a bloodstained bed inside the house. A senior defense official said bin Laden was killed by "U.S. bullets," ruling out that he was killed by his own guards to prevent his capture.**
Three other adult men were killed, including the two couriers and one of bin Laden's adult sons. One woman was killed when she was used as a "shield" by one of the men. Two other women were injured. The disabled helicopter was destroyed by the U.S. crew before the strike team left.
At 3:50 p.m. Sunday, the president first learned that bin Laden's body was tentatively identified. At 7:01 p.m., Mr. Obama was told there was a "high probability" the body was bin Laden's.
To identify him, CIA specialists also compared photos of the body to known photos of bin Laden and were able to determine with 95% certainty it was him. Monday morning, an initial DNA analysis showed a "virtually 100%" match of the body against DNA of several bin Laden family members.
Bin Laden was buried at sea Monday, in accordance with Islamic tradition that burial take place within 24 hours of death. A senior U.S. defense official said religious rites were read on the deck of the USS Carl Vinson. The body was placed in a weighted bag.
"After the words were complete," a senior defense official said, "the body was placed on a prepared flat board, tipped up, whereupon the deceased's body eased into the sea."
—Julian E. Barnes and Zahid Hussain contributedto this article.
Write to Siobhan Gorman at [email protected]
Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
If he doesn't resigned they should fire him.
Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
One more question.
Who got the prize money?
Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
Such a monumental failing of intelligence as not detecting Bin Laden in such a military city represents a total military intelligence failure - the very reason for ISI's existence.
As leader of the agency, Lt. General Pasha bears responsibility for its failure and should step down immediately.
He might, not immediately though. After about 4 months when he gets another plot in DHA.
Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
One more question. Who got the prize money?
Zardari.
Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
On the other hand, BBC says:
Once again, Pakistan Army’s image can only improve if it acknowledges it’s role. Cooperating even with incomplete knowledge to take this guy out is much better than we had no clue and we let commandos of another country operate in our country for 40 minutes after flying in from another country before we started scrambling our jets.
Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
Lol that means even Pakistani army doesn't trust isi
Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
True, and not to mention the fact that it was 100 meters from PMA,
Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
On the other hand ISI admits to intelligence failure (both wrt knowledge of Bin Laden’s hideout, and wrt the slow reaction to the operation), and denies reports of soldiers telling residents to turn the lights off.
I cant imagine they’d choose to be characterized as impotent rather than complicit.
Re: Lieutenant-General Ahmad Shuja Pasha should do the decent things and resign
Such a monumental failing of intelligence as not detecting Bin Laden in such a military city represents a total military intelligence failure - the very reason for ISI's existence.
As leader of the agency, Lt. General Pasha bears responsibility for its failure and should step down immediately.
Simply stepping down will not solve any issue. They should come clean about whatever happened and be willing to be investigated upon so the truth can be known.