Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

This whole thing is sad and the call for blood goes over the call of justice. Finally why would anyone praise God in this situation??

 
**TRIPOLI, Libya** (AP) -- A court on Tuesday convicted five Bulgarian nurses and a Palestinian doctor of deliberately infecting 400 children with the HIV virus and condemned them to death, provoking shouts of approval from the children's relatives.
 
"God is great!" yelled Ibrahim Mohammed al-Aurabi, the father of an infected child, as soon as the presiding judge finished reading the verdict in the Tripoli courtroom. "Long live the Libyan judiciary!"
 
Bulgaria swiftly condemned the decision, and reiterated its belief that the children were infected by unhygienic conditions in their Benghazi hospital.
"Sentencing innocent people to death is an attempt to cover up the real culprits and the real reasons for the AIDS outbreak in Benghazi," said parliamentary speaker Georgi Pirinski.
 
The Bulgarian and Palestinian defendants did not react as the judgement was delivered. They have the right to appeal to the Supreme Court.
The presiding judge, Mahmoud Hawissa, took only seven minutes to confirm the presence of the accused -- who all answered "yes" in Arabic -- and read out his verdict and sentence in the longest and most politicized court process in modern Libyan history.
 
The six defendants, detained for nearly seven years, had previously been convicted and condemned to death, but Libyan judges granted them a retrial last year after international protests over the fairness of the proceedings.
An international legal observer, Francois Cantier of Lawyers Without Borders, promptly criticised the retrial for failing to admit enough scientific evidence. Research published this month said samples from the infected children showed their viruses were contracted before the six defendants started working at the hospital in question.
 
"We need scientific evidence. It is a medical issue, not only a judicial one," Cantier said at the court after the verdict. ([Watch report of the sentencing](javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/world/2006/12/19/nzewku.bulgaria.nurses.itn','2007/01/02');))
Bulgaria's Pirinski made the same point in Sofia, saying: "The court has not taken into account the unquestionable judicial and scientific evidences for the innocence of the medics."
The long trial of the six foreign medical workers has held up the efforts of Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi's to rebuild ties with the West. Europe and the United States have called for their release, indicating that future relations with Libya would be affected by Tuesday's verdict.
 
But Libyans strongly supported a conviction. Some 50 relatives of the infected children -- about 50 of whom have already died of AIDS -- waited outside the court early Tuesday morning, holding poster-sized pictures of their children and bearing placards that read "Death for the children killers" and "HIV made in Bulgaria."
After the verdict, relatives at the court gates chanted "Execution! Execution!"
In Bulgaria, hundreds of people had staged peaceful protests in support of the five nurses on Monday.
Europe, the United States and international rights groups have accused Libya of prosecuting the six foreign staff as scapegoats for dirty conditions at the Benghazi children's hospital.
 
Luc Montagnier -- the French doctor who was a co-discoverer of HIV -- testified in the first trial that the deadly virus was active in the hospital before the Bulgarian nurses began their contracts there in 1998.
More evidence for that argument surfaced on December 6 -- too late to be submitted in court -- when Nature magazine published an analysis of HIV and hepatitis virus samples from the children.
 
Using changes in the genetic information of HIV over time as a "molecular clock," the analysts concluded that the virus was contracted before the six defendants arrived at the hospital -- perhaps even three years before.
Idriss Lagha, the president of a group representing the victims, rejected the Nature article, telling a press conference in London on Monday that the nurses had infected the children with a "genetically engineered" virus. He accused them as doing so for research on behalf of foreign intelligence agencies.
When the defendants were allowed to give evidence last month, they denied intentionally infecting children.
 
"No doctor or nurse would dare commit such a dreadful crime," said nurse Cristiana Valcheva, adding that she sympathized with the victims and their families.
 
A second Bulgarian, Valentina Siropulo, testified that of her seven years in Libya, "I've spent only 6 months working as a nurse and the rest of the time in prison."
 
Gadhafi, who has been trying to refashion his image from leader of a rogue state, got his government to ask Bulgaria to pay compensation to the children's families.
 
But Sofia rejected the idea as indicating an admission of the nurses' guilt.
 
 
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/12/19/libya.aids.ap/index.html

Re: Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

i bet the children were infected by rapists and pedofiles, and those same pedofiles are calling for the docs executions.. :hoonh:

Re: Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

why in the world would these nurses infect children with the virus? whats the motive? from reading this it seems like they were given an unfair trial.

Re: Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

and I bet you are dead wrong.

Re: Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

i knw its far out and wierd but then so are these idiots who are executing docs and nurses when theres proof the kids were already infected before they started working with them

Re: Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

They were given two trials…Deliberate negligence in the medical field sometimes tantamounts to murder…400 children have been infected with the HIV virus through the incompetency or maybe complicity of these nurses and doctor…

Mossaoui is serving 6 consecutive life terms for doing nothing…There are hundreds if not thousands who have been detained for years for doing absolutely nothing…

And this guy writes about injustice to those through whom 400 innocent children now face a slow and painful death? Typical American…

Re: Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

UTD,

stop over-dramatizing this situation. Here what is going to happen: at the 11th. hour, qaddafi will pardon the medics and send them out of the country garnering international praise for his munificence.

Re: Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

but if they were infected to begin with i dont see how you can trial them for
even negligence

well he is arguing that their slow and painful death is NOT due to the nurses. i dont see your point. he's doing SOMETHING no? the point is he's trying to provide someone justice. no doubt there are many awaiting justice in this world but u can open a different thread for them.

Re: Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

[quote]
Research published this month said samples from the infected children showed their viruses were contracted before the six defendants started working at the hospital in question.

More evidence for that argument surfaced on December 6 -- too late to be submitted in court -- when Nature magazine published an analysis of HIV and hepatitis virus samples from the children.
**
Using changes in the genetic information of HIV over time as a "molecular clock," the analysts concluded that the virus was contracted before the six defendants arrived at the hospital -- perhaps even three years before.**

Idriss Lagha, the president of a group representing the victims, rejected the Nature article, telling a press conference in London on Monday that the nurses had infected the children with a "genetically engineered" virus. He accused them as doing so for research on behalf of foreign intelligence agencies.
[/quote]

--There is clear evidence that says the virus was contracted before the six defendants arrived at the hospital. So why are htey being punished and executed?

--What proof does Lagha have, other than some ridiculous speculation?

Re: Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

They were given two trials...Deliberate negligence in the medical field sometimes tantamounts to murder...400 children have been infected with the HIV virus through the incompetency or maybe complicity of these nurses and doctor...
**
You make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Read the two points I highlighted. There is evidence that these children were infected before hte doctors and nurses arrived.
**
Mossaoui is serving 6 consecutive life terms for doing nothing...There are hundreds if not thousands who have been detained for years for doing absolutely nothing...
**
Massaoui has nothing to do with this case, those hundreds/thousands of people who've been detained have nothing to do wtih this particular case.
**
And this guy writes about injustice to those through whom 400 innocent children now face a slow and painful death?

*Six people have been locked up for years for something they did not do. Is that not injustice? Yes it's sad that the children have AIDS but it was not their fault. *

Typical American...
**
Again, that makes no sense. So the author is a "typical American" because he chose to write about this case and not some other case that might interest you?
**

Re: Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

Sara, don't expect much from anyone who uses the phrase 'Typical American".

Re: Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

piss off you typical american!!!!

Re: Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

It was, and is, common practice to reuse syringes in some third world countries. There are acceptable ways to sterilize the needles, but this is rarely done. Someone should offer a couple million dollars worth of disposable needles, enough for a couple of years use to the country in exchange for the prisoners. Unfortunately after they convict these poor healthcare workers, still more will die, and eventually Libya will have to confront some scientific fact.

AIDS has long been associated with ignorance and taboo. Both of these things guarantee that more will die. Libya has AIDS not because of foreign healthcare volunteers, but because Libyans are human beings and engage in risky infectious behaviors just like the rest of the world. Being Muslim does not protect you from AIDS. Denial will kill people.

Re: Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

OG true, its taboo to even discuss these things in many cases. I recall that in Pakistan when the NGO my sister had set up wanted to buy the first HIV screening machine, there was a lot of yipyap about why it was not needed because in Pakistan there was no HIV.

While incidence of HIV is much lower compared to our neighbours, its still there.

The move in Libya reeks of misdirection and frame these nurses and docs rather than admit that the healthcare system is poorly run and managed.

Lets not forget...after all this is Qaddafi we are talking about..

Re: Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

Well, the thread opener seems to insinuate that this incident is a nightmare of justice...What is truly a travesty of justice is that Bush still walks free and countless innocents still die in both Iraq and Afghanistan...If this was truly a just world we lived in, Bush as of this moment would have been sentenced for execution by an international tribunal for war crimes against humanity...But this is not an ideal world we live in...

However, we must keep in mind this happened in a Muslim country...In Muslim countries, the incidences of AIDS are very very rare...Because of a strictly monogamous society and religious sentiments, the spread of AIDS in Muslim countries is pretty much limited to red light areas or the rare occasional desi who has a foreign girlfriend abroad...

The infection of 400 little children is not a small matter to be taken so lightly...We tend to take it in a non-serious and trivial matter because the children infected were Muslims...

Imagine for a second if a Muslim doctor was found to have infected 400 American children with the HIV virus, what would happen then?

But for me, a Muslim child is just as important and precious as any child from anywhere...And their being infected by a deadly virus specially in a Muslim country where AIDS is present in almost negligible ratios, speaks volumes...

These nurses and doctor were entrusted to uphold the honor of the medical profession...Instead, due to their negligence, out of whatever reason, 400 kids now face certain death...

Whether the syringes were reused or not, it was their duty to protect the lives of these children, failing which, they should have left...

They were given due process, not once but twice, and it's time they faced the Maker for their deeds...

Re: Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

.

Re: Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

Well, the thread opener seems to insinuate that this incident is a nightmare of justice…What is truly a travesty of justice is that Bush still walks free and countless innocents still die in both Iraq and Afghanistan…If this was truly a just world we lived in, Bush as of this moment would have been sentenced for execution by an international tribunal for war crimes against humanity…But this is not an ideal world we live in…

**It is a nightmare of justice, especially since innocent people are being sent to jail for something they did not do. Bush is a travesty of justice, yes, but this article has nothing to do with Bush, again, stop bringing in events that have no direct relevance to this topic.
**
However, we must keep in mind this happened in a Muslim country…In Muslim countries, the incidences of AIDS are very very rare…Because of a strictly monogamous society and religious sentiments, the spread of AIDS in Muslim countries is pretty much limited to red light areas or the rare occasional desi who has a foreign girlfriend abroad…

**Read OG’s post: “being Muslim does not protect you against AIDS.” Muslims are human too and they DO engage in risky behaviors that leave them vulnerable to HIV/AIDS. Simply being Muslim or coming from a “Islamic” country does not protect you against such diseases. Sound mind, knowledge and education and values do. Unfortunately in alot of countries, knowledge and education on AIDS and STDs are absent. And you cannot assume that all Muslims have values and ethics. **

The infection of 400 little children is not a small matter to be taken so lightly…We tend to take it in a non-serious and trivial matter because the children infected were Muslims…

**Yes it’s sad. But who here is taking it as a non-serious and trivial matter? The only one who’s doing that seems to be you, by turning this into a Muslims vs, non-Mulsims battle, when it’s not. **

Imagine for a second if a Muslim doctor was found to have infected 400 American children with the HIV virus, what would happen then?

But for me, a Muslim child is just as important and precious as any child from anywhere…And their being infected by a deadly virus specially in a Muslim country where AIDS is present in almost negligible ratios, speaks volumes…

Do you ahve statistics to back up your claim that the rate of AIDS is very small in Muslim countries? Again, this is not a “us” vs “them” battle that you are so desparately trying to make. While children (Muslim or NOT) being infected IS a sad thing, your arugment is just too emotional and doesn’t make any sense.

These nurses and doctor were entrusted to uphold the honor of the medical profession…Instead, due to their negligence, out of whatever reason, 400 kids now face certain death…

**And they did the best htey could. They’re doctors, not miracle workers, how can they be held responsible for something that was already there? You conveniently ignored this:

**

Whether the syringes were reused or not, it was their duty to protect the lives of these children, failing which, they should have left…

**Once again, the argument is that the doctors and nurses were accused of infecting children with AIDS,when that is not true. **

They were given due process, not once but twice, and it’s time they faced the Maker for their deeds…

**They were given a retrial due to international outrage, and rightfully so. If they are put to death, yes they will face the consequences and so will the people who put them to death.

And they say only women are so over-emotional :hoonh:

**

Re: Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

^^

The story appears in Washington Times...A truly biased and one dimensional, American patriotic newspaper...

You can believe it, I don't...Its bias will portray the accused as innocent and portray their incarceration as a 'a justice nightmare'...

Keep in mind, there have been two trials...Unlike American justice systems where the lawyers aren't even allowed to meet with their clients, the defense had full access to every possible thing that could be used to save these people...

It is only safe to assume that the defense failed in producing any significant defense...

Re: Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

You can believe it, I don't...Its bias will portray the accused as innocent and portray their incarceration as a 'a justice nightmare'...

*No, I don't believe that everythign is a "us" vs "them" battle. *

Keep in mind, there have been two trials...Unlike American justice systems where the lawyers aren't even allowed to meet with their clients, the defense had full access to every possible thing that could be used to save these people...

*Sorry, i've never been arrested, therefore have never needed to hire a lawyer, but I am pretty sure that lawyers ARE allowed to meet with clients. Maybe that's just me.
What motive would they have had to infect these children wiht the virus?
*

It is only safe to assume that the defense failed in producing any significant defense...

** Unfortunately teh evidence that the defense had (which btw, I quoted twice but you've ignored) could not be handed in on time. What did the prosecutors have to go on other than some farfetched speculations?

***If you can find other articles highlighting this case, and the "other side", please post them, i'll gladly read those (need something to do once finals are over). *

Re: Libya to execute HIV medics. (A Justice Nightmare)

Here is a link that maybe even the biased and blind can relate to. A
Attempting to discuss Bush, Iraq and the piety of Muslims in relation to this case is disingenuous, diversionary and intellectualy dishonest.

**Libya Aids evidence ‘worthless’ **

A British science journal has said that the evidence against six foreign health workers, accused in Libya of deliberately infecting more than 400 children with the Aids virus, is worthless.

The defendants could face death penalty if found guilty

In a news report on Thursday, Nature, one of the world’s most prestigious science publications, said that it had acquired a copy of a document written by five Libyan physicians in 2003 that is the cornerstone of the case against the five Bulgarian nurses and a Palestinian doctor.

The journal had the document translated into English and asked independent experts to assess it.
Consensus

All agreed that its accusations were unsupported by fact and riddled with suppositions, the weekly said.

Janine Jagger, an expert in blood-borne pathogens who heads the International Health Care Worker Safety Centre at the University of Virginia at Charlottesville, was quoted as saying: "I don’t see any evidence in it.

“It wouldn’t meet the lowest standards of epidemiological evidence for establishing any causal relationship.”

Robin Weiss, an Aids virologist at University College London, said: "There are no grounds for suspicion of deliberate infection by any staff, and strong evidence of hospital-acquired infection before the arrival and after the departure of the foreign health workers.

**"If the accused are found guilty, it will be a travesty of justice. **

“Moreover, it would be foolhardy for any expatriate healthcare workers, whether from the Arab world or elsewhere, to work in Libya.”

Criticism

The experts were also critical that the Libyan court had dismissed a report written by Luc Montagnier, who co-discovered the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), which causes Aids, and by Vittorio Colizzi, an Aids researcher at Tor Vergata University in Rome.

That report had concluded that the infections began in 1997, before the medics had arrived in Libya, and were caused accidentally by reused and unsterilised needles at the Benghazi hospital.

The evidence for this was that many of the children were also infected with hepatitis B and C and that two nurses at the hospital were infected with the same HIV strain as the children themselves, the Montagnier-Colizzi report said.

In addition, the virus responsible was of the A/G subtype of HIV-1, a recombinant strain common in Central and West Africa, and not a genetically modified strain as the Libyan prosecutors had alleged, it said.

The report by Nature adds to a swelling international outcry about the case, which resumes in a retrial next Tuesday.

The six could be sentenced to death if found guilty. A group of US, Canadian and European experts, including Robert Gallo, the other discoverer of the Aids virus, made a joint appeal in the US journal Science this week.

They said confessions signed by two of the accused were made under torture, criticised the court for excluding independent expert testimony and called on their governments to pressure Libya to release the six.

The defendants are accused of infecting 426 children. Fifty-two of them have died