If you are against liberation of Iraqis, then you by default are in favor of the torture murder and rape of Iraqis at the hand of Saddam and gassing of Kurds. Take you pick. In case of Thap, take a date-palm stick.
NYA,
Please stick to the topic of the thread we have oceans of chestnuts to discuss. Lets put Iraq aside for a minute and lend a hand to the oppressed masses of the US.
I don't think it's a lack of date palms that are contributing to the mind-controlling media and freedom within limits.
Your regime is telling you that you can have freedom as long as it's defined by us and subject to change at no notice. How do you feel about that man...I'd be gutted. But then again I guess you’re an acquiescent sort of peoples, I just hope you snap out of it before it’s too late.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *
Speak for yourself if you can, and challenge the facts that I presented i.e. on how the American regimes treated the dissenting Native American's and later the African-American's?
[/QUOTE]
There's nothing to challenge, I agree that both groups were treated horribly. As the American society grows it evolves with the hope that someday race, nationality, and class won't be factors on how persons are treated. The Civil rights movement helped assure this, as did the women’s right movement. There is still much work to be done, one reason I support affirmative action. Past generations made mistakes Malik, what are you looking for here, a declaration of guilt?
Thap, so examples of how liberated regimes in Europe differ from the oppressive regime of the U.S. would be helpful. Also do you pay Egyptian taxes? After all wouldn't want to support that type of government.
Thap, Never really knew anyone who would worry about me that much. What the hell are you talking about? I see dozens demonstrations on daily basis. What authorities are you talking about? Everyone is free to voice his/her opinion. If you don’t get quality press where you are, I don’t blame you. Every day, half of the op-ed in the NYTimes is anti-war and anti-business/imperialism. You only get a skewed coverage of the developments in the US. In other words, you have only half the idea. Not a single case of institutionalized retaliation has been done to any of the dissenters.
I wont even bother to talk about what kind of liberties are available where you live. Caz there's nothing much to talk about.
I also hope, that you snap out of this anti-Americanism too. It is not healthy (even though it is fashionable).
The First Amendment protects the right of Americans like me to humiliate, disagree with, boycott, urge non-violent action against, etc., etc. anyone who uses his/her freedom of speech to voice an opinion we disagree with. The fact is that the left wing fringe of actors and actresses are voicing opinions that more than 80% of America strongly disagree with. If 80% of America decides that they won't go to another Susan Sarandon film because of her opinion, that's their right. If they want to tell a producer about their decision, that's their right too. And if a producer doesn't want to make another film starring Susan Sarandon because it will bomb at the box office, that's his right. Susan's freedom of speech gives her the right to mouth off all she wants but that's all it does.
I really don't recall any liberals lining up to defend Trent Lott's freedom of speech when he was being pushed to vacate his leadership post because of his speech. (By the way, I didn't raise a free speech argument in support of him either.) Nor did I see Hollywood or anyone else come to the aid of actor Michael Moriarty who essentially lost his job on Law and Order and has been Hollywood's blackballed sheep since for his anti-Janet Reno remarks during the Clinton administration.
Talk all you want. But don't whine and cry when the people who disagree with you take action protesting your opinion.
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by underthedome:
Past generations made mistakes Malik, what are you looking for here, a declaration of guilt?.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, as matter of fact, because only then would people start taking American claims that they are promoting "freedom" in the world seriously. The fact remains that the United States spent the first 175 years of it's 214 year history carrying out a genocidal campaign against Native American's who dissented i.e. opposed the Anglo-American invasion of their country, and persecuting African-American's denying them the human rights enjoyed by others. That is not "evolution" of American society but clear and factual examples of widespread brutality against anyone who dissented against American imperialist policies.
But more starkly after 9/11 we have seen the gradual erosion of the freedoms and liberties that the American's are promoting to the rest of the world, under the Patriot Act, and a growing band of apologists or defenders of this kind of muzzling of dissenters. Even you have failed to condemn the arrest, defamation, threats and humiliation of those who dare to oppose this illegal war in the USA?
NYA yaar,
Sorry for the delay in replying I was making carrot juice, after reading your last post it seems I missed the American revolution, I also missed the Berlin wall coming down I was out breaking into cars.
I don't doubt that a few free-thinkers are allowed a column or two in such esteemed rags but I would love the message to filter down to the 'muddled' masses.
NYA yes I do care about you.
Anywhere is as free as you make it, NYA make your little bit of the US free!
Thap, in free societies "what you would 'love' to see" doesn't work. What masses are you talking about? Are you suggesting that if they don’t think along your lines, they are somehow not voicing their freedom to express? Just ask yourself, why do you have to be so angry about the liberation of the oppressed people. If you don’t like them being free, just deal with it. Decades of oppression results into the outburst of emotions that they are feeling now. The term 'free' wasn't part of their vocab for the longest time.
Happy Good Friday and Happy Easter to you. You can help fellow Copts with some of your freedom loving ideas. And enjoy your carrot juice. I have heard it is good for bowel. It will help you with regularity and ease of passage into happiness and satisfaction.
Free societies don't work?
I'm less angry and more downcast at the plight of US citizens, with the damned if we do and damned if we don't attitude it's no wonder there so many God-damned confused souls around.
Freedom is ticker tape. Thinking outside the box is a corporate term that isn't really applied in everyday life in the US; I'm downcast about that too.
Man every Friday is good and Saturdays too, it’s the weekend out here, Coptic’s get some days off too.
It was overcast today, that’s almost like rain here so moods are high.
The greatest freedom anyone can enjoy is the freedom to think and form unbiased opinions, not conforming to any party line, I just want the same for my American brethren…one shouldn’t really have to apologise for the mistakes of others.
A free bowel is also a joy, but at your age prunes are best prescribed.
Think free brother.
Since the focus of discussion seems to be partially on the Patriot Act, thought i would post a few references so we can all have a clearer understanding of what exactly that Act signifies for civil liberties (or lack of) in the US.
The first reference is a speech that Tim Robbins (better known perhaps as Susan Sarandon’s husband) gave to the the National Press Club in Washington on 15 April 2003, (after Dale Petroskey, the president of the Baseball Hall of Fame, cancelled a conference due to Tim R’s anti-war views).
‘A Chill Wind is Blowing in This Nation…’](http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0416-01.htm), Tim Robbins
McCarthy’s ghost, Gary Younge
The Guardian, 27 March 2003
**Emperor George**, Jonathan Freedland
The Guardian, 2 April 2003
Someone to watch over me, Ian Buruma
The Guardian, 19 November 2002
Rough justice for many in US mood of mistrust, Duncan Campbell and Oliver Burkeman
The Guardian, 9 September 2002
US court balks at new spy powers, Matthew Engel
The Guardian, 24 August 2002
From an article posted by Nadia:-
**Increasingly though it is becoming consistent. The harassment, arrest, detention and frustration of those who are against the war is becoming routine. **
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Thap: *
....…one shouldn’t really have to apologise for the mistakes of others.....
[/QUOTE]
But someone has to "admit" the mistake first, right?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
But someone has to "admit" the mistake first, right?
[/QUOTE]
Well I am sure it was Anglo-American invaders who started killing Native American's first when they started dissenting, so they can start with the apologies etc...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Malik73: *
Well I am sure it was Anglo-American invaders who started killing Native American's first when they started dissenting, so they can start with the apologies etc...
[/QUOTE]
Malik, serious question, please to advise as to what nations during the same period in history were any better? America continues to grow and prosper because it has learned (with an occaisonal black eye) from past mistakes in World history. I see no other nation that has done better!
Otherwise, you should show all those trying to get into America the error of their ways! They should be lined up to get into Syria!
Peace To All Who Read This....
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by mrpockets:
America continues to grow and prosper because it has learned (with an occaisonal black eye) from past mistakes in World history.
[/QUOTE]
After carrying out a GENOCIDE against the Native American's and enslavement and persecution of the African American's let's not forget. That is not called "evolving" as a nation but clear historical facts as to how dissenting opinions have always been crushed in America until very recently (i.e. the 1960's). If America had "learned" from these mistakes (if it regards them as such?) then surely it would apologise, and not leave the Native Americans to still largely rot away in third-world style reservations even today.
Now those recently won freedoms (well after many other western nations accorded people equal/civil rights btw) are being on trampled again on after 9/11, and those who dissent against such policies are once again being arrested, defamed, threatened and humiliated. Yet with this sort of crushing of dissent and freedoms is going on in the USA when we have the US regime talking about promoting "freedom" across the world. Fix your own problems, apologise to the peoples you annihilated in the USA, and make it up to them before preaching to the rest of the world.
Malik, you didn’t answer my question! Please to advise as to what nations during the same period in history were any better?
Historically, genocide is NOT a failing exclusive to the US. We cant “turn back the clock” and much remains to be done. However, I think we continue to endeavor to ensure that the Native Americans get fair, sometimes even preferential, treatment:
http://indian.senate.gov/107legtabletext.htm
No one said it’s easy to redress past wrongs, but, the US makes a sincere effort to do so.
The US government HAS apologized to both groups. Does every generation hereafter have to apologize every 25 -50 years or so - would that make you happy?
Americans ARE free to say what they want - they are also free to accept the consequences of public reaction to their statements. I freely choose not to patronize actors/actresses whose opinions I disagree with. I choose not to buy products from France and Germany. I choose to be a part of GupShup and engage in the free discussion of ideas and opinions that may or may not agree with my own experience and upbringing.
While I wish the the war had not come, Saddam, and Saddam alone, is the proximate cause. The outcry against the war is like an abused wife, beaten and bloody, screaming as police haul her husband away! A comfortable known always initally seems better than an uncomfortable unknown. Never having not been beaten, she doesn’t know how to react and what it will be like. It’s uncomfortable and foreign. At least with the beatings she knew what to expect. But, eventually the bruises fade and new inner strength is found. Once that happens, she will never allow herself to be beaten again, God willing! May the Iraqi people find that new inner strength!
However, the process takes time…it’s not like flipping a switch!
Peace To All Who Read This…
Seminole,
Don't you just feel like giving Thap an uppercut? I do sometimes, and I apologize.
But sometimes I just feel like smacking him.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Thap: *
NYA yaar,
Sorry for the delay in replying I was making carrot juice, after reading your last post it seems I missed the American revolution, I also missed the Berlin wall coming down I was out breaking into cars.
I don't doubt that a few free-thinkers are allowed a column or two in such esteemed rags but I would love the message to filter down to the 'muddled' masses.
NYA yes I do care about you.
Anywhere is as free as you make it, NYA make your little bit of the US free!
[/QUOTE]
Thap,
Your number 1 rag seems to be a Tabloid.
I know bunches of folks who will not vote for GBJ and Co.
Lots.
Gobs.
I know many democrats and labor people who wouldn't step one foot into vote for that guy. Ever.
Watch the U.S. politics...
allready started questioning Cheney's ties with oil companies.
Now now AAG violence won't accomplish anything I'm sure this can be resolved through peaceful means....now where have I heard that before...
The last newspaper I read came wrapped around a piece of battered cod. Broadsheets tend not to be sized correctly for this purpose.
I still very much believe that true liberation lies in truly liberated thinking. How can you ever be truly free unless you know what it is to be oppressed.
Looking in from the outside gives a unique perspective to the ‘freedoms’ of America; this should fit in well with the logic and values of most Americans as they constantly look into the world for their ills rather than taking a look at themselves.
Think free!