Lets settle beard issue once and for all

Society Religion & Philosophy
81

Re: Lets settle beard issue once and for all

So what is the end result?

Do we all agree that Beard is a wajib ? ...

Bearded people here(mostly-including me) do not enforce rather encourage others to grow beards as other wise they (clean shaved people0 are in continous breach of an islamic hukam, a conitnous gunnah - and that is all --

There have been clean shaved people who have much respect in islamic religious circles, one such example is aamir cheema shaheed, and there have been many bearded people who are made symbol of hate in reiligious circles, example- Mirza Ghulam ahmed qadiyani--

So IMHO we should encourage people to grow beard but should not think clean shaven people as inferior and similarly if you do not have beard you should fee a guilt of not growing beard and should not try to justify your gunnah--

wasalam

82

Re: Lets settle beard issue once and for all

yes i agree. through this thread i came to know the opinion of 4 schools of thought that i didn't know before...........jazakAllah khair everyone.

83

Re: Lets settle beard issue once and for all

Peace

FAO USResident

I see your example above of the siwak (toothstick) which we wrongly call miswak in Pakistan which means (brushing) is not adequate to be compared to growing of the beard.

Yes, people do brush their teeth with paste and manufactured brushes, but do they do this to meet the criteria of the hadith or not? Do they intend to meet the hadith or do they do so to fit present cultural norms? Also, there is an exceptable method of ijtihad present there also. That is the question, 'does the act perform the same result?' People can argue that brushing the teeth is the sunnah so that the result is to have clean teeth.

However, the instruction for growing the beard cannot possibly be replaced with shaving the beard as a feasible ijtihad as the end result is completely opposite the original instruction.

84

Re: Lets settle beard issue once and for all

Miswak and Toothpast both serve the same purpose i.e cleaning of teeth, keeping a beard and shaving it don't serve the same prupose; so wrong argument.

85

Re: Lets settle beard issue once and for all

ASA Br. Psyah

I know both terms, just used miswak since most of the crowd is Paki.

As you pointed out people are concerned with the principle behind the hadith regarding siwak. No one argues about its literality then why is it that we argue about the literality of the ahadith concerning beard. I think you might have missed my earlier posts. I had mentioned beards were to norm of that time. Then why the hadith to grow a beard. I am not aware that people used to shave back then anyway. When people already had beards then why a hadith to grow one. It meant to grow it longer or in a way that is more distinct compared to others (by shaving your mustache). Even Abu Jahl had a beard.

(Bukhari) Volume 5, Book 59, Number 300:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet said, "Who will go and see what has happened to Abu Jahl?" Ibn Mas'ud went and found that the two sons of 'Afra had struck him fatally (and he was in his last breaths). 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud said, "Are you Abu Jahl?" And took him by the beard. Abu Jahl said, "Can there be a man superior to one you have killed or one whom his own folk have killed?"

(Muslim) Book 019, Number 4434: It has been narrated on the authority of Anas b. Malik that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said (after the encounter at Badr): Who will ascertain for us what has happened to Abu Jahl? Ibn Mas'ud went (to gather this information). He found that the two sons of 'Afra' had struck him and he lay cold at the point of death. He caught him by his beard and said: Art thou Abu Jahl? He said: is there anybody superior to the person you have killed, or (he said) his people have killed him. Ibn Mas'ud says that, according to Abu Mijlaz, Abu Jahl said: Alas! a person other than a farmer would have killed me.
Having a beard or not having one was not the real issue, it was about establishing an identity which can be visibly distinguished.

(Bukhari) Volume 7, Book 72, Number 780:

Narrated Nafi': Ibn Umar said, The Prophet said, 'Do the opposite of what the pagans do. Keep the beards and cut the moustaches short.' Whenever Ibn 'Umar performed the Hajj or 'Umra, he used to hold his beard with his hand and cut whatever moustaches. Ibn Umar used to cut his moustache so short that the whiteness of his skin (above the upper lip) was visible, and he used to cut (the hair) between his moustaches and his beard.
(Bukhari) Volume 7, Book 72, Number 781:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "Cut the moustaches short and leave the beard (as it is)."

(Muslim) Book 002, Number 0498:Ibn Umar said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Trim closely the moustache, and let the beard grow.

(Muslim) Book 002, Number 0499: Ibn Umar said: The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) ordered us to trim the moustache closely and spare the beard.

(Muslim) Book 002, Number 0500: Ibn Umar said: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be opon him) said: Act against the polytheists, trim closely the moustache and grow beard.

(Muslim) Book 002, Number 0501: Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Trim closely the moustache, and grow beard, and thus act against the fire-worshippers.
This is the only hadith that supports the common POV here but no where is it evident that you are sinning by not doing it as many people here are claiming to be:

(Abu Dawood) Book 1, Number 0052: Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:

The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: Ten are the acts according to fitrah (nature): clipping the moustache, letting the beard grow, using the tooth-stick, cutting the nails, washing the finger joints, plucking the hair under the arm-pits, shaving the pubes, and cleansing one's private parts (after easing or urinating) with water. The narrator said: I have forgotten the tenth, but it may have been rinsing the mouth.
Now for people who grow it out of pure love for the Sunnah and imitation I can understand that and respect it as well but you can't be declaring it as Un-Islamic or sinful:

(Abu Dawood) Book 32, Number 4053: Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar:

Zayd ibn Aslam said: Ibn Umar used to dye his beard with yellow colour so much so that his clothes were filled (dyed) with yellowness. He was asked: Why do you dye with yellow colour? He replied: I saw the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) dyeing with yellow colour, and nothing was dearer to him than it. He would dye all his clothes with it, even his turban.
In all the ahadith I have posted no where is it evident that you are sinning by shaving your beard. Its mostly about distinguishing yourself from non-muslims. And no where did it say to grow the beard to look distinct as mostly every other man had a beard (as I said it was the norm) but it emphasized to trim the moustache to achieve the disinctness.

I am not against beards but people take it too far without understanding the purpose behind it and even take the liberty to hand out sins for it.

86

Re: Lets settle beard issue once and for all

If you go through these hadiths once again you will read, Muhammad sallAllahu 'alayhe wasallam COMMANDED people to grow beard. You don't keep a beard you don't carry out Muhammad's command which makes you a sinner.

87

Re: Lets settle beard issue once and for all

Unless you have reading comprehension problems I cannot make it any clearer for you. It says leave the beards alone or let them grow meaning they were not grown into a beard in the first place by the Prophet SAW command, people had pre-existing beards as I have been stating all along. The command was to specifically trim the moustaches short and let the beards grow or in other words don't trim them short like the moustache. Everyone had a beard, its not having a moustache that made the muslim look distinct.

Thank you for your fatwa btw. I can probably extend this analogy of yours to prove you are a sinner in a dozen different ways. We could start at by you wearing dresses that non-muslims wear. Your sinning because you are imitating them. Go wear a disdasha now and wear a turban to work. Please do not come back with more idiotic replies if you want to have a discussion.

88

Re: Lets settle beard issue once and for all

People had many things before Islam, e.g they had pubic hair before (and of course after Islam) but we were commanded to trim that.

Isn't it better to comprehend what Prophet Muhammad sallAllahu 'alayhe wasallam said than what you do?

(Bukhari) Volume 7, Book 72, Number 780:

Narrated Nafi': Ibn Umar said, The Prophet said, 'Do the opposite of what the pagans do. Keep the beards and cut the moustaches short.' Whenever Ibn 'Umar performed the Hajj or 'Umra, he used to hold his beard with his hand and cut whatever moustaches. Ibn Umar used to cut his moustache so short that the whiteness of his skin (above the upper lip) was visible, and he used to cut (the hair) between his moustaches and his beard.In fact Pagans must do many things e.g they worshipped Idols, but the Prophet Muhammad sallAllahu 'alayhe wasallam didn't talk about worshipping Allah. The above command of Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhe wasallam doesn't say anything about what Muslims did before; either some of them shaved their beards or not, we don't read anything of the kind. The Prophet could give a command for something even if people were already practising it.

Pagans must wear the same kind of dresses which Muslims wore those days, we don't read any Command of the Prophet in this narration about clothing. Which means the clothes which Muslims or Kafirs (men) wore those days fulfilled the requirement of covering and modesty, so Prophet didn't ask people to wear differently from Pagans. But he exclusively talked about Beards.

[quote]
The command was to specifically trim the moustaches short and let the beards grow or in other words don't trim them short like the moustache. Everyone had a beard, its not having a moustache that made the muslim look distinct.
[/quote]

I only want to know if Prophet Muhammad sallAllahu 'alayhe wasallam COMMANDED to keep a beard or not?

[quote]
Thank you for your fatwa btw. I can probably extend this analogy of yours to prove you are a sinner in a dozen different ways. We could start at by you wearing dresses that non-muslims wear. Your sinning because you are imitating them.
[/quote]

I would prefer if you show me a hadith which COMMANDS us not to wear clothes which Pagans do.

[quote]
Go wear a disdasha now and wear a turban to work. Please do not come back with more idiotic replies if you want to have a discussion.
[/quote]

Please show me a hadith of Prophet Muhammad sallAllahu 'alayhe wasallam where he COMMANDED people to wear a Turban as he COMMANDED people to keep or grow Beards.
And please find another hadith of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w where he COMMANDED Muslims to wear an Izaar, as I am sure Pagans did wear Izaar those days like Muslims.

89

Re: Lets settle beard issue once and for all

Yes and this relates to Taharat.

The emboldened sentence has to be a typo or it hasn't been explained very well. If you read the emphasis is on trimming the moustache.

How could you take one hadith and try to derive the context for other things from it. Clothing was reformed i.e. hijab, clothing covering aura.

Yes he did but show me one hadith where it says that not keeping one is sinful. For if something is a fard/wajib then not doing it is sinning.

90

Re: Lets settle beard issue once and for all

Originally Posted by binAadam

I only want to know if Prophet Muhammad sallAllahu 'alayhe wasallam COMMANDED to keep a beard or not?

That is what I want to prove which you accepted above. Now you can ask a scholar if doing opposite to what Prophet Muhammad sallAllahu 'alayhe wasallam COMMANDED is a Sin or Not?

91

Re: Lets settle beard issue once and for all

This is where I differ from you, not doing it is not a sin unless it carries religious significance in the eyes of Allah SWT. The only reason given by the Prophet SAW to grow or leave the beard is to look different from the Pagans, there is not a single hadith that suggests it is sinning to not look different from a Pagan, or that Allah SWT will not accept your good deeds should you not have a beard, or not having a beard invalidates your prayers, fasting, charity or hajj. Show where it says not having a beard makes you liable to punishment or it is an obligation to keep a beard.

Should non-muslims start imitating muslims in there beard and moustache style what will you do next? Amish people in USA grow beards and often shave their moustaches. What makes them appear different then is their dress.

I heard your argument before about no command to change their dress, why would they do that, it didn't make sense because they were all from the same culture and race.

The whole principle behind it is to look different from non-muslims or be recognizable as a muslim. Among Arabs you couldn't tell one Arab from another Arab and hence you coudn't tell whether he was muslim or not, having a beard and no moustache did that. For me I would stand out in a group of foreigners anyway with or without a beard.

Anyway I see both of us have our POVs and do not want to budge so this discussion will not go anywhere.

92

Re: Lets settle beard issue once and for all

I completely agree in this matter. As I’ve pointed out already, religious Jews (especially in those times, and you still see it today) and Christians had big bushy beards. They also had long moustaches. You can see something similar with Sikhs of today. What differentiates us from them? Our shortened moustaches, not our beards. I think in those days non–Romans would grow beards regardless, and see it as a given. People only see beards as a special thing today because a lot of us grow up in Western/Secular societies where people shave all the time…