Let us discuss

Abdulla · December 10, 1998, 5:13am

Assalam O Alaikum

Brother Imran and other, let us discuss here the differences which separates us. Let us first start with basic differences, i leave it up to you to choose the topic.

Assalam O Alaikum

Imranz · December 10, 1998, 2:50pm

Brother Abdullah,

                Your opinion of history is somewhat personal, as the fact remains that whatever you
                have in your hands right now in form of books, hadiths, sayings etc etc, fit in the
                description of Historical data, of course, logically speaking..

                If you want to base the discussion on Quran and two Sahih books, that is fine,
                although I do wanna mention that Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim may be considered
                the error-proof books from majority of muslims, but throughou the history many many
                scholars have provided valid proofs to invalidate that perception. Before we start on
                Sahih books, or for that matter any book, as a neutral reader/critique, it is inevitable
                to search and find out the information about the author and how he has known by his
                counterparts and his character to see if there were any biased output or literature
                due to weakness either in his personality or cultural forces which made him unable to
                write the just and neutral findings. Do you agree with that??? 

                I don't know the grasp of your knowledge in Islamic studies/history/Fiqah/Hadiths, but
                I can assure you that these types of discussions called , Mazakaras Aur
                Mounazarass, have been done many many times in recent past like few decades ago
                as well as way back several centuries and there have been volumes and volumes of
                books written on this subject, i.e, Aqeedas of Shias Versus Sunnis or Five disciplines
                of Islam such as Hanafi,Malaki, Shahfayii,Hanubali, Jafari

I am sorry, I posted this in other thread. Before we start this discussion, I would like to know your input on the rules of discussions and what will be the base of it. Plus, what evidence you would consider valid enough in regards to different topics such as Sayings/Fatwas of Learned Scholars, Al-azhar University's Grand Mufti, religious books etc etc.

[This message has been edited by Imranz (edited December 10, 1998).]

AliAbbas · December 10, 1998, 4:17pm

In the name of the ar Rahman and ar Rahim

Quran, Hadith and History
The Ahl al bayt

THE FORMER PROPHETS AND THEIR AHL AL BAYT
In the lives of the past prophets, their families have had played a prominent role in supporting them against their opponents. Musa, when commanded by God to go and preach Pharaoh (Quran, 20:24), makes this prayer:

'(Moses) said: “O my Lord! Expand me my breast: easy my task for me; and remove the impediment from my speech. So that they may understand what I say: And give me a minister from my family (waziiram min ahlii), Aaron my brother; and add to my strength through him, and make him share my task.’ (Quran, 20:25-32). God answered his prayer: ‘(God) said: “Granted is thy prayers, O Moses!” (Quran, 20:36). In another place God says: ‘(Before this), We sent Moses the Book, and appointed his brother Aaron with him as minister’. (Quran, 25:35).

We also find in the Quran, that after the death of the prophets, their descendants become their spiritual and material heirs. God says:

'God did chose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham and the family of Imran above all people – offspring, one of the other; and God heareth and knoweth all things.’ (Quran, 3:33-4) At another place in the Quran, God says:

‘Those were some of the prophets on whom God did bestow His grace – of the posterity of Adam, and of those whom We carried (in the ark) with Noah, and of the posterity of Abraham and Israel – of those whom We guided and chose; whenever the signs of (God) were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears.’ (Quran, 19:58).

The chain of the prophets and their families is described in more detail in the following verses: ‘And we gave him Isaac and Jacob: all (three) were guided: and before him we guided Noah, and among his progeny, David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses and Aaron: thus do we reward those who do good: and Zakariyya and Yahya, and Jesus and Elias, all in the ranks of the righteous: and Ismail and Elisha and Jonah and Lot, and to all we gave favour above the nations: (to them) and their fathers, and progeny and brethren: We chose them, and We guided them to a straight way. This is the guidance of God: He giveth that guidance to whom he pleaseth of His worshippers. If they were to join other gods with Him, all that they did would be in vain. These were the men whom We gave the book and authority and prophethood: if these reject them, Behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not.’ (Quran, 6:84-9).

This eminent position of the families and the descendants of the past prophets offers us a parallelism between the history of the former prophets in the Quran and that of the Prophet Muhammad.

PROPHET MUHAMMAD AND HIS AHL AL BAYT
Tradition of the ‘two weighty things’
Based on a mutawatir tradition (as explained by M.M Azami, a ‘report of a large number of narrators whose agreement upon a lie is inconceivable’. Studies in Hadith Methodology and Literature, p. 43) upon whose authenticity all Muslims agree, the Prophet informed his followers on several occasions that he would leave them two precious/weighty things and that if Muslims adhere to both of them, they will never go astray after him. They are the Book of God (Quran) and the members of the house of the Prophet (the ahl al-bayt).

It is narrated by Abul Husain Muslim b. al Hajjaj al Nisapuri (also known as Muslim) in his work Sahih Muslim (as well as many other sources) that:

Someday (after his last pilgrimage) the Messenger of God, stood to give us a speech beside a pond, which is known as Khum (Ghadir Khum), located between Mecca and Medina. Then he praised God and reminded of Him, and then said: “O’ people! Behold! It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by God) and I shall answer that call. Behold! I am leaving for you two precious things. First of them is the book of God in which there is light and guidance … The other one is my ahl al bayt. I remind you in the name of God about my ahl al bayt. I remind you in the name of God about my ahl al bayt. I remind you in the name of God about my ahl al bayt. (three times).”

 Sahih Muslim, Chapter: The virtues of the companions, Section: The virtues of 'Ali, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1873, tradition: 36. For English version, Chapter CMXCVI, v4, p1286, tradition: 5920
Understanding the tradition
Before proceeding further, it would be beneficial to explain certain words that occur in the tradition, the elucidation of whose meaning is essential for understanding its meaning and import. ‘Thaqalayn’, is the dual of thaql, meaning weight, burden and load and is used figuratively for anything that is important, superior, precious, paramount, significant, weighty, indispensable, essential, of solemn and serious concern of possessing primacy and priority. E. W. Lane in the Arabic-English Lexicon, while defining thaql, writes, ‘A thing, or things, that a man has with him, of such things as burden him’ … ‘Anything held in high estimation, in much request, and preserved with care. (K, TA.) Hence the tradition, [Verily I am leaving among you the two objects of high estimation and of care, the Book of God, and my kindred, or near kindred]: (K :)or they are this called because of the heaviness of acting the manner required by them.

The plural of thaql, that is athqal occurs in the Quran in the following surah, When earth is shaken with a mighty shaking and earth brings forth her burden (athqal), and many says, ‘What ails her?’ Upon that day she shall tell her tidings for that her Lord has inspired her. (Quran, 99:1-5) The word thaql is also to be found in the suras 16:7, and 29:13. The exegetes interpret the word athqal as referring either to the bodies of the dead of mankind that shall be resurrected on the day of resurrection, or to the precious minerals and treasures that lie buried in the earth (Lisan al’arab, Ibn Manzur, v2 p112, Asas al-balaghah, al Zamakhshari, p46). The dual thaqalan which occurs in 55:31 is interpreted as referring to the species of mankind and jinn, who are most significant creatures that inhabit the earth. According to an interpretation quoted by al Razi, the designation thaqalan (the dual form of thaqal, “a thing of weight”) signifies that both these categories of human beings are liable to, and therefore burdened with, sinning. (The Message of the Quran, M. Asad, p826, note 14). To sum up, the word thaql has connotations akin to those of the word ‘weighty’ in the English language. In any case, the prophetic tradition itself explains the word thaqalayn as referring to the Quran and the ahl al bayt of the Prophet.

Another word that also needs some elucidation is itrah. The lexicographers explain itrah as meaning one’s own kindred, in particular one’s children, grandchildren and descendants as well as the children of one’s paternal uncles. (Lisan al arab, v9 p34, Asas al balaghah, p292). Ibn Manzur, in his dictionary, Lisan al arab, after giving the above meaning of itrah, refers to Ibn Sayyidah’s statement that by itrah of the Prophet are meant his descendants through his daughter, Lady Fatimah. Then he cites authorities such as Ibn al Athir and Ibn al Arabi to the effect that by itrah are meant one’s closest relations: i.e. children and descendants. He also refers to the opinions, which give a broader meaning to the word, covering remoter blood relations.

The fact of the matter remains that the Prophet has placed those to whom he refers to as his itrah, and ahl al bayt by the side of the Quran as the second source of guidance for his community until the judgement day implies that he was not referring to ordinary individuals from among his close relations and descendants.
Is the honor due to relationship?
It may appear that the selection of the members of the house of the Prophet as a source of guidance is due to their blood relationship. If so, then it would not be in accord with the spirit of the Islamic teachings. To bestow on them such a unique honor, is in conflict with the following principles,

All people in the eyes of God are equal, for the Quran declared: O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that Ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). (Quran, 49:13)
God does not penalize or reward a servant of His for the sins or good deeds of his parents or his close and distant relatives, as He, states in the Quran: O mankind! Do your duty to your Lord and fear a day when no father can avail aught for his son, nor son avail aught for his father. Verily the promise of God is true: let not then this present life deceive you. Nor let the chief deceiver deceive you about God. (Quran, 31:33)

Kinship to the Prophet, does not mean acceptance by God, nor does it secure for his relatives a place in paradise or insure them against divine punishment. God, according to Islamic teachings has created paradise for whoever obeys Him and the place of punishment for whoever dis-obeys him, regardless of family affiliation, nationality or race. The Quran even contains a chapter defaming Abu Lahab who was an uncle of the Prophet: Perish the hands of Abu Lahab, perish he … (Quran, 111:1).

Thus the truth is that the word ‘ahlal bayt’ means only the chosen relatives of the Prophet. These chosen individuals are not chosen or honored because of their relationship to the Prophet, but because of their virtues.

Tradition of the ‘Quran and my Sunnah’
The Sunnis voice their objection to the said tradition of the two weighty things, wording it differently to read, ‘I have left among you the book of God and my sunnah’.

Needless to say, both traditions do not contradict one another, because the authentic ‘sunnah’ is preserved with the ahl al bayt, and the residents of the house know better what their house contains.

However, there is sufficient evidence that stems from the presence of traditions in the works of the Sunnis, that lends credence to the import of the tradition ‘ … the book of God my sunnah’, as un-authentic. If the tradition was authentic, Umar thus would not have been justified to say that ‘Book of God is sufficient’ as recorded by Abu Abdullah Muhammad b. Ismail b. Ibrahim b. al Mughira al Ja’fi (also known as Bukhari), through Ibn 'Abbas:

When the time of the death of the Prophet approached while there were some men in the house, and among them was 'Umar Ibn al-Khattab, the Prophet said: “Come near let me write for you a writing after which you will never go astray.” 'Umar said: “The Prophet is seriously ill, and you have the Quran, so God’s Book is sufficient for us.” The people in the house differed and disputed. Some of them said, “Come near so that God’s Apostle may write for you a writing after which you will not go astray,” while the others said what 'Umar said. When they made much noise and quarreled greatly in front of the Prophet he said to them, “Go away and leave me.” Ibn 'Abbas used to say, "It was a great disaster that their quarrel and noise prevented God’s Apostle from writing a statement for them.

 Sahih al-Bukhari, chapter: It is disliked to differ, [v9, p. 346-7, tradition: 468] and chapter: The saying of the patient: ‘Go away from me’, [v7, p. 389, tradition: 573]
 Sahih Muslim, chapter of “Kitab al-Wasiyya” in section “Bab tark al-wasiyya,” 1980 Edition, Arabic version (Saudi Arabia), v3, p1259, tradition: 1637/22. For english version: Chapter DCLI ‘He who has not anything with him to will away should not do it’. [v3, pp870, tradition: 4016]
Compilation of traditions
Secondly, had the tradition reading ‘… the book of God and my sunnah’ been authentic, traditions (hadith) of the Prophet would have been recorded earlier than the time of ‘Umar b. Abd al Aziz (or even a little later), as recorded.

And ‘Umar bin Abdul Aziz wrote to Abu Bakr bin Hazm, ‘Look for the knowledge of hadith and get it written, as I am afraid that religious knowledge will vanish and the religious learned men will pass away (die). Do not accept anything save the hadiths of the Prophet (upon whom be peace,). Circulate knowledge and teach the ignorant, for knowledge does not vanish except when it is kept secretly. (to oneself). (Sahih al Bukhari, The Book of Knowledge, Chapter: How the (religious) knowledge will be taken away? v1, pp79.)

Thirdly, had the tradition reading ‘ … the book of God and my sunnah’ been authentic, the traditions of the Prophet would have had put down in writing during his life-time. To quote a historian,

In the days of the first four Caliphs, Islamic jurisprudence and traditions were widely studied. They were also taught by a number of teachers. All this was however done orally: and nothing was reduced to writing. The Umayyads were the first to order muslims to write. Ibn ‘Abd al Barr, in his book Jami’ bayan al ‘ilm, has quoted the Imam al Zuhri as saying: We did not like to transfer knowledge to paper, but at last a time came when men in authority compelled us to do so. (Jami’ bayan al ‘ilm, Cairo edition., p.136).

Muawiya was the first to encourage writings. He invited Ubaid ibn Sharya to come from Yemen and compile a history of the ancients. The book is named Akhbar la Madiyin. (Fihrist of Ibn Nadim, p.244).

Next to Muawiya came ‘Abd al Malik ibn Marwan, who ascended the throne in the year 65 A.H (684 C.E). He ordered the scholars to write books of every type and every topic. Said ibn Jubair, the greatest scholar of the day was ordered to write a tafsir (commentary of the Quran). This, the Imam did and the tafsir was deposited in the state library. The tafsir considered to have been written by ‘Ata ibn Dinar, is the same that Said had written. ‘Ata had somehow, secured it from the royal library. (Mizan al I’tidal, Ata Ibn Dinar’s version).

The reign of ‘Umar bin Abd al Aziz gave a fresh impetus to literary activity. Orders were promulgated all over the empire for sayings of the Prophet to be complied into the form of books. Sad bin Ibrahim who was a famous traditionist and Qadhi (judge) of Medina, was asked to write into books a very large number of traditions: and they were all sent to various parts in the Muslim empire. Ibn ‘Abd al Barr, in his Jami’ Bayan al ‘Ilm, quoted ibn Ibrahim as saying: Umar ibn Abd al Aziz ordered us to collect the traditions. We did so and wrote a large number of volumes; and Umar ibn Abd al Aziz sent one set to each of the parts of his empire. (Jami’ Bayan al ‘ilm, Cairo edition, p. 36)

 Siratun Nabi, The Life of the Prophet, Shibli Numani, Chapter: Biography and Ilm al Kalam, Section: Written Literature Under State Patronage, v1 pp17-18

Apart from the above considerations, on tracing the source of this report from Abu Huraira which states “Quran and sunnah” it has not been recorded in any of the six authentic Sunni collections of the traditions (sihah as sitta). Not only that, but also al-Bukhari, al-Nisa’i, and al-Dhahabi and many others rated this report (Quran and sunnah) to be weak because of its weak isnad (as explained by M.M Azami, ‘ isnad, according to Arabic lexicography means the thing on which another relies. As we rely on the narrators for the knowledge of the statement of the Prophet this chain is called isnad.’ Studies in Hadith Methodology and Literature, p.32).

Moreover, the word “sunnah” in itself does not serve the purpose of knowledge. All muslims irrespective of their persuasions claim that they follow the sunnah of the Prophet. The differences among muslims surfaces from the transmitted Prophetic traditions through different avenues. Such traditions serve as an explanatory means of the Quran upon whose authenticity all muslims agree. Thus, a divergence in the transmitted traditions, has led to a differing in the interpretation of Quran and the prophetic sunnah. All muslims, as a result, splintered into different schools, groups, offshoots, which is believed to add up to seventy three groups.

The Prophet as usual thus clarifies:

I am leaving for you two precious and weighty Symbols that if you adhere to both of them you shall not go astray after me. They are: the Book of God and my progeny, that is my ahl al bayt. The Merciful has informed me that these two shall not separate from each other till they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise).

 Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 662-663,328
 al-Mustadrak, al-Hakim, Chapter: Understanding (the virtues) of Companions, v3, pp 109,110,148,533 who wrote this tradition is authentic (sahih) based on the criteria of the two shaykhs (Bukhari and Muslim).
 Sunan, Daarami, v2, p432
 Musnad, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v3, pp 14,17,26,59, v4, pp 366,370-372,v5, pp 182,189,350,366,419
 Fadha’il al-Sahaba, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p585, tradition: 990
 al-Khasa’is, al-Nisa’i, pp 21,30
 al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqa, Ibn Hajar Haithami, Ch. 11, section 1, p230
 al-Kabir, al-Tabarani, v3, pp 62-63,137
 Kanz al-Ummal, al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Chapter al-I’tisam bi Habl God v1 p44.
 Tafsir, Ibn Kathir (complete version), v4, p113, under commentary of verse 42:23 of Quran (four traditions).
 al-Tabaqat al-Kubra, Ibn Sa’d, v2, p194, Pub. Dar al-Sadr, Lebanon.
 al-Jami’ al-Saghir, al-Suyuti, v1, p353, and also in v2
 Majma’ al-Zawa’id, al-Haithami, v9, p163
 al-Fatih al-Kabir, al-Binhani, v1, p451
 Usudul Ghaba fi Ma’rifat al-Sahaba, Ibn al-Athir, v2, p12
 Jami’ al-Usul, Ibn al-Athir, v1, p187
 History, Ibn Asakir, v5, p436
 al-Taj al-Jami’ Lil Usul, v3, p308
 al-Durr al-Manthur, al-Hafidh al-Suyuti, v2, p60
 Yanabi al-Mawadda, al-Qunduzi al-Hanafi, pp 38,183
 Abaqat al-Anwar, v1, p16 … and many more …

The members of the Prophet’s family (the ahl al bayt) always were distinguished by virtue of their knowledge of the Quranic sciences and Prophetic tradition (sunnah), and hence the general masses looked upon them as poles of guidance. Said Nursi reflects on the same observation as follows:

Thus, this is why this truth was made known in hadiths under the heading of following the Book and the Prophet’s practices (sunnah). That is to say, what was required from the family of the Prophet in respect of the function of prophethood were the practices of the Prophet. Just as some one who abandoned the Prophet’s practices could not truly be a member of his family, so too such a person could not be a true friend to them.

Also, the reason he desired the Community to gather around his family was that, with God’s permission, he knew his family were going to become numerous with the passing of time, and that Islam was going to become weak. Therefore an extremely strong and numerous mutually supportive group of people was necessary so that it could be the means to and centre for the spiritual and moral progress of the Word of Islam. With Divine permission, he thought of this, and desired that his community should gather around his family. (The Fourth Flash, Flashes Collection, Section: First Station, Said Nursi, p.38)

It would only be a logical consequence to state that those vested with knowledge, understood the sunnah better than any one else.

Narrated Umm Salama:

The Messenger of God said: “'Ali is with the Quran, and the Quran is with 'Ali. They shall not separate from each other till they both return to me by the Pool (of Paradise).”

 al-Mustadrak, al-Hakim, v3, p124 on the authority of Umm Salama
 al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqa, Ibn Hajar, Ch. 9, section 2, pp 191,194
 al-Awsat, al-Tabarani; also in al-Saghir
 Tarikh al-Khulafaa, Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p173
Ahl al Bayt and similitude to the Ark of Noah
The story of the ark of Noah remains a reminder, an everlasting sign and warning to mankind – a sign of deliverance to the righteous. God says in the Quran: ‘He (once) set Noah to his people, and he tarried among them a thousand years less fifty: but the deluge overwhelmed them while they (persisted) in sin. But we saved him and his companions of the ark, and we made the (ark) a sign for all peoples!’ (Quran, 29:14-5) and also ‘At length, behold! There came our command, and the fountains of the earth gushed forth! We said: Embark therein, of each kind, two, male and female, and your family – except those whom against the word has already gone forth – and the believers. But only a few believed in him. So he said: Embark ye on the ark in the name of God, whether it move or be at rest! For my Lord is, be sure, Oft forgiving, Most Merciful!. (Quran, 11:40-1)

And the words of the Prophet:

Behold! My ahl al bayt are like the Ark of Noah. Whoever embarked in it was saved, and whoever turned away from it was perished.
7
 al-Mustadrak, al-Hakim, v2, p343, v3, pp 150-151 on the authority of Abu Dhar. al-Hakim said this tradition is authentic (sahih).
 Fadha’il al-Sahaba, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p786
 Tafsir al-Kabir, Fakhr al-Razi, under the commentary of verse 42:23, Part 27, p167
 al-Bazzar, on the authority of Ibn Abbas and Ibn Zubair with the wording “drowned” instead of “perished”.
 al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqa, Ibn Hajar Haithami, Ch. 11, section 1, p234 under Verse 8:33. Also in section 2, p282. He said this tradition has been transmitted via numerous authorities.
 Tarikh al-Khulafaa and Jami’ al-Saghir, al-Suyuti
 al-Kabir, al-Tabarani, v3, pp 37,38
 al-Saghir, al-Tabarani, v2, p22
 Hilyatul Awliyaa, Abu Nu’aim, v4, p306
 al-Kuna wal Asmaa, al-Dulabi, v1, p76
 Yanabi al-Mawadda, al-Qunduzi al-Hanafi, pp 30,370
 al-Durr al-Manthur, al-Hafidh al-Suyuti, v9, p115
 Kanz al Ummal, Muttaqi al Hindi, v6 p216, tradition: 3772
 Dhakha’ir al-Uqba, Muhibb al-Tabari, p20
 Tarikh, al-Khateeb Baghdadi, v12, p19

The above tradition is also narrated by Ibn Abbas, Anas ibn Malik, Abu Said al Khudri, Abdullah bin Zubair. It affirms the understanding that those who adopt and turn towards the school of ahl al bayt and follow them, will be ranked among the righteous ones.

It is this message that is echoed again by the Prophet

Do not be ahead of them for you will perish, do not turn away from them for you will perish, and do not try to teach them since they know more than you do!

 al-Durr al-Manthur, al-Suyuti, v2, p60
 al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqa, Ibn Hajar al-Haithami, Ch. 11, section 1, p230, quoted from al-Tabarani, also in section 2, p342
 Usudul Ghaba, Ibn al-Athir, v3, p137
 Yanabi’ al-Mawadda, al-Qunduzi al-Hanafi, p41, and P335
 Kanz al-Ummal, al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v1, p168
 Majma’ al-Zawa’id, al-Haithami, v9, p163
 Abaqat al-Anwar, v1, p184
 A’alam al-Wara, pp 132-133
 Tadhkirat al-Khawas al-Umma, Sibt Ibn al-Jawzi al-Hanafi, pp 28-33
 al-Sira al-Halabiyya, Nur al-Din al-Halabi, v3, p273

Ahl al Bayt and similitude to the Gate of Repentance
A Quranic reference to this is: ‘And remember when We said: Enter this town, and eat of the plenty therein as ye wish, but enter the gate with humility, in posture and in words, and We shall forgive you your faults and increase (the portion of) those who do good.’ (Quran, 2:58)

The Prophet in his tradition also speaks of in the same vein:

My ahl al bayt are like the gate of repentance of the children of Israel; whoever entered therein was forgiven.

 Majma’ al-Zawa’id, by al-Haithami, v9, p168
 al-Awsat, by al-Tabarani, tradition: 18
 Arba’in, by al-Nabahani, p216
 al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqa, by Ibn Hajar al-Haithami, Ch. 11, section 1, pp 230,234
 Another fairly similar tradition was recorded by al-Darqunti as well as Ibn Hajar in his al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqa, Ch. 9, section 2, p193 where the Prophet said: “Ali is the gate of repentance, whoever entered therein was a believer and whoever went out was an unbeliever.”

The above tradition was in connection with verses 2:58 and 7:161 of Quran which describes the gate of repentance of Bani Israel. Those of the companions of Moses who did not enter the gate of the repentance were lost in the desert for forty years, while those who did not enter the ark of Noah were drowned. Ibn Hajar concludes that:

The analogy of the ark of Noah signifies that those who love and honor the ahl al bayt and derive from their guidance will be rescued from the darkness of opposition, and those who will turn against them will be drowned in the sea of ingratitude and will perish in the desert of insubordination and rebellion. (al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqa, by Ibn Hajar, p91)

Different chains of the tradition of two weighty things (al-thaqalayn) prove conclusively that it is a matter very dear to the Prophet and hence, the repetition on the authority of more than thirty of the companions through various sources, attests to its importance. The Prophet repeated these words over and over again (and not merely in one isolated instance but on several occasions) publicly to stress its importance. He made the announcement during the farewell pilgrimage, on the day of Arafat, on the day of Ghadir Khum, on the return from Ta’if, also in Medina from the pulpit, and in his deathbed when the room was packed with his disciples, he said:

O folk! I am soon going to depart from here, and although I have already told you, I repeat once more that I am leaving with you two things, namely, the Book of God and my descendants, that is, my Ahlul-Bait." Then he lifted Ali by the hand and said: "Behold! this Ali is with the Quran and the Quran is with him. These two shall never separate from each other until they come to me at the Pool of Kawthar. (al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqa, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 9, section 2)

Ibn Hajar al-Haithami wrote:

The traditions of adherence has been handed down through a large number of sources and more than twenty of the disciples have related it.

And further,

Here a doubt arises, and it is that while the tradition has come down through various sources, some say that the words were spoken during the last pilgrimage, others that they were spoken at Medina when he lay on his deathbed and the room was packed with his disciples, yet another saying that he spoke these words at Ghadir Khum, or in another hadith, on the return from Ta’if. But there is no inconsistency in these, since having regards to the importance and greatness of the Quran and the pure ahl al bayt, and with a view of emphasizing the point before the people, the Holy Prophet might have repeated these words on all these occasions so that any one who had not heard them before might hear them now." (al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqa, by Ibn Hajar al-Haithami, Ch. 11, section 1, p230)

Thus the prophetic instructions were clear in urging muslims to follow the interpretation of Quran and his sunnah as transmitted through the channel of ahl al bayt whose in-errancy, purity, and righteousness is confirmed by the Quran (the last sentence of verse 33:33).

Suggestion for further reading

al Tawhid Quarterly Journal of Islamic Studies, Hadith al Thaqalayn: A Study of its Tawatur, Parts I, II, III, IV, The Islamic Republic of Iran. A detailed discussion on hadith al thaqalayn, with a focus on the different versions of the same tradition, various occasions related to its mentioning, chain of narrators of the hadith, it’s meaning, and lastly, a comparison against those traditions that conflict with hadith al thaqalayn. Also available on the internet at http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/dilp

Mohammad Jawad Chirri, The Brother of the Prophet Mohammad (The Imam Ali), The Islamic Center of America, Detroit Michigan, 1988. Chapter: The House of the Prophet Mohammad. A book that imparts an understanding of the position of the Shi’a, through the authentic and reliable works of hadiths from the Sunni works, covering aspects of the life of the fourth rightly guided for the Sunni’s and the first Imam of the Shi’ites with an emphasis on the household (ahl al bayt) of the Prophet.

---- Inquiries about Islam, The Islamic Center of America, 1986 Revised Edition. Chapter: 21, Differences among Muslims. An undertaking of the author to highlight the differences among the muslims, with a specific note to it’s relevance in a contemporary society. Also available on the internet at http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/dilp

Sayyid Mujtaba Musavi Lari, Imamate and Leadership, Lessons on Islamic Doctrine (Book Four), translated by Hamid Algar, Sayyed Mojtaba Musavi Lari Foundation of Islamic C.P.W, 12 Entezam St, Qom, I.R Iran, 1996. Lesson Six, The Relationship between the Quran and the Progeny of the Prophet, Lesson Thirteen, The True Nature of the Holders of Authority. This books outlines the concept of leadership as understood by the Shi’ites with a specific emphasis at explaining the foundations of one of the principle of faith as held by the Shi’ites, namely ‘Imamate’, loosely translated as Leaderhip. Covers an extensive portion on Shi’ism and its development in history.

Ideals and Realities of Islam, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, George Allen and Unwin (1966), Chapter VI, Sunnism and Shi’ism - Twelve Imam Shi’ism and Isma’ilism. Treats the subject of the division within Islam into Sunnism and Shi’'ism from a religious and historical perspective, on the question of successorship of the Prophet, and with a specific emphasis on the exoteric and esoteric aspects of religion as viewed by the Shi’ites.

Shi’a, S. M. H Tabatabai, translated by Seyyed Hossein Nasr, Ansariyan Publications, Iran, Chapter VI, On the Knowledge of the Imam (Imamology). A book which treats the historical reality of Shi’ism within Islam, her contribution to the spread of the Quranic message, and her existence as a possibility within the Islamic revelation itself. The chosen chapter, specifically focusses on the role of the imams of the ahl al bayt, in the exposition of the divine sciences, that again goes back to the underlying wisdom of treating the ahl al bayt with the Quran (thus the hadith al thaqalayn).

Islamic Spirituality Foundations (vol I of II), edited by Seyyed Hossein Nasr, The Crossroad Publishing Company, 1997. Chapter 9, Twelve Imam Shi’ism, Syed Husain M. Jafri, A dicsussion on Twelve Imam Shi’ism, with an extensive discussion on the role of the Imam and the significance of their lives, with a specific treatment of the Shi’ite piety and practices.

The Right Path, 'Abd al Husayn Sharaf al Din al Musawi, Zahra Publications, 1986, Letter 8: Failure to appreciate my former letter. Petitio Principii does not arise. The tradition of the ‘two weighty things’ …. A book consisting a series of letters in the form of questions and answers, seeks to explain, justify and uphold the raison d’etre of Shi’ism, between a Sunni and a Shi’a scholar, Salim al Bishri and the aforementioned name. Also available on the internet at http://www.al-islam.org/organizations/dilp.

Shi’as are the Ahl al Sunnah, al Tijani al Samawi, Vantage Press Inc, 1996. Chapter: Is it “the book of Allah and my Progeny” or “the Book of Allah and my Sunnah?”. A book that explores the delicate, yet essential question of: “Who is better qualified to the claim of being a followers of Islam’s Prophet in spirit and practice?”. The selected chapter further elaborates on the Tradition of the ‘Quran and my Sunnah’.

system · December 11, 1998, 4:44am

ya ya all of you are AALims.

Abdulla · December 12, 1998, 4:32am

Assalam O Alaikum

Brother Imran
First of all i want to make a thing very much clear to you, I do not follow (do taqleed) of any imams you have mentioned. I am not a hanafi or shafaee or from any other firqa. I just follow what Allah SWT has told us to follow, i.e. Quran and Sunnah of Prophet SAW. I do respect all the imams, May Allah shower his blessings on them. They did too much for the religion but as far as Taqleed is concerned i just follow what is stated in Quran.

You see the advantages in following Quran and Sunnah directly are no one can challenge you for the validity of your faith. Like if someone asks me why i do so and so act, i tell him so and so hadith tells me to do it, but had i been following a imam, like imam malik, or imam Hanifa or imam jafar or any other imam, i would have said that so and so imam has told us to do without knowing the source of it.

For example let us take a very simple example basically all my family are sunni, hanafi, they do not say ameen loudly or do not do Rafayadain. But i found sahih ahadith in which it is very very clearly mentioned that we should say ameen loudly and should do rafayadain.

As far as validity of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim is concerned, ya ibn halal, its the most authentic book and i do not have any knowledge of any invalid hadith. so far.

Now lets start discussing the basic thing that is our faith. Shia aqeeda allows to do Sajda on holy shrines also. Now this is a very very big issue which can make a Muslim mushrik.

Would you like to throw some light on it?

Brother Ali Abbas
You are welcome to the thread but please refarin from pasting such long messages.

I am sure that our discussions will be in a very friendly and brotherly environment. May Allah show us all the right way and fill our hearts with His love and minds with the right knowledge of His deen.

Assalam O Alaikum

Imranz · December 12, 1998, 1:16pm

Brother Abdullah,

Okay so you don't follow four Imams that majority of muslims do. As for Brother Abbas's reply, I think you started this discussion for "Imran and others", so he had chosen a topic and provided his logic with many referrences from your authoritive sahih books. I would be glad to answer your question about hold shrines, but if you could reply to Brother Abbas's topic inquiry I would be very grateful. In other words, if you can verify the stuff he mentioned had gotten from sahih books??? Then we can move to more secondary nature questions like Holy shrines etc etc.

Abdulla · December 13, 1998, 7:45am

Assalam O Alaikum

Brother Imran and Ali
I wanted to discuss the most important issue i.e. shirk with you, a shirk being the sin which will not be forgiven by Allah SWT as He says "Inna Allaha Yaghfiru … " Allah SWT will forgive all sins except Shirk. Whereas, the subject you want to discuss i.e. the first Khalifa being Hazrat Ali or Ahl-e-Bait is not as important as discussing shirk. But still I will go your way.

Now I have read the topic by brother Ali Abbas, and the answer lies in there it self.

All people in the eyes of God are equal, for the Quran declared: O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that Ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). (Quran, 49:13)
God does not penalize or reward a servant of His for the sins or good deeds of his parents or his close and distant relatives, as He, states in the Quran: O mankind! Do your duty to your Lord and fear a day when no father can avail aught for his son, nor son avail aught for his father. Verily the promise of God is true: let not then this present life deceive you. Nor let the chief deceiver deceive you about God. (Quran, 31:33)

The above ayats can act as the Law in deciding anything. So it is final that the best among the people is the one who has the most amal saleh.

Now just see these ahadith from Sahih Bukhari :

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 6: Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Allah's Apostle addressed the people saying, "Allah has given option to a slave to choose this world or what is with Him. The slave has chosen what is with Allah." Abu Bakr wept, and we were astonished at his weeping caused by what the Prophet mentioned as to a Slave ( of Allah) who had been offered a choice, (we learned later on) that Allah's Apostle himself was the person who was given the choice, and that Abu Bakr knew best of all of us. Allah's Apostle added, "The person who has favored me most of all both with his company and wealth, is Abu Bakr. If I were to take a Khalil other than my Lord, I would have taken Abu Bakr as such, but (what relates us) is the Islamic brotherhood and friendliness. All the gates of the Mosque should be closed except the gate of Abu Bakr."

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 7: Narrated Ibn 'Umar:
We used to compare the people as to who was better during the lifetime of Allah's Apostle . We used to regard Abu Bakr as the best, then 'Umar, and then 'Uthman .

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 22: Narrated Abu Said:
The Prophet said, "Do not abuse my companions for if any one of you spent gold equal to Uhud (in Allah's Cause) it would not be equal to a Mud or even a half Mud spent by one of them."

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 42: Narrated Abu Musa:
While I was with the Prophet in one of the gardens of Medina, a man came and asked me to open the gate. The Prophet said to me, "Open the gate for him and give him the glad tidings that he will enter Paradise." I opened (the gate) for him, and behold! It was Abu Bakr. I informed him of the glad tidings the Prophet had said, and he praised Allah. Then another man came and asked me to open the gate. The Prophet said to me "Open (the gate) and give him the glad tidings of entering Paradise." I opened (the gate) for him, and behold! It was 'Umar. I informed him of what the Prophet had said, and he praised Allah. Then another man came and asked me to open the gate. The Prophet said to me. "Open (the gate) for him and inform him of the glad tidings, of entering Paradise with a calamity which will befall him. " Behold ! It was 'Uthman, I informed him of what Allah's Apostle had said. He praised Allah and said, "I seek Allah's Aid."

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 93: Narrated 'Uqba bin Al-Harith:
I saw Abu Bakr carrying Al-Hasan and saying, "Let my father be sacrificed for you; you resemble the Prophet and not 'Ali," while 'Ali was laughing at this.

Brothers, Prophets never differed his family from other Muslims, you must have heard that hadith in which a woman's hand had to be cut because she stole (theft) and at that time he said if it was Fatima Bint Mohammed, she would have had the same punishment. So He never differed among his family and other Muslims. And why would he, when Allah SWT has not made a difference.

About the hadith you have mentioned, the word is Sunnah and not Ahl-e-Bayyt. Just think for a moment, if its Ahl-e-Bayyt and not Sunnah then thousands of ahadith today become invalid and of now use because they were not transmitted by a member of the family of Prophet SAW. I will ask you a question, Is Quran and ahadith (sunnah) more important for you or is Quran and Ahly-e-Bayyt. Ahlay-Bayt is just a group of very highly respected people like other sahaba. In Quran Allah SWT says

Atiullah wa iti urrasool "Follow Allah SWT i.e. Quran and follow Rasool (Prophet SAW).

Now how can we follow Prophet SAW, we can follow him by his sunnah, isn't it. We cannot follow him by Ahyl-e-Bayt, because in that case, we have to do what ever is transmitted by Ahl-e-bayyt only and the hadiths transmitted by other sahaba becomes invalid as they are not from ahl-e-bayt.

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 9, Book 92, Number 381:
Narrated Hudhaifa:
Allah's Apostle said to us, "Honesty descended from the Heavens and settled in the roots of the hearts of men (faithful believers), and then the Quran was revealed and the people read the Quran, (and learnt it from it) and also learnt it from the Sunna." Both Quran and Sunna strengthened their (the faithful believers') honesty. (See Hadith No. 208)

Why Abu Bakr RAA made first Khalifa

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 8: Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
The Prophet said, "If I were to take a Khalil, I would have taken Abu Bakr, but he is my brother and my companion (in Islam)."

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 11: Narrated Jubair bin Mutim:
A woman came to the Prophet who ordered her to return to him again. She said, "What if I came and did not find you?" as if she wanted to say, "If I found you dead?" The Prophet said, "If you should not find me, go to Abu Bakr."

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 14: Narrated 'Amr bin Al-As:
The Prophet deputed me to read the Army of Dhat-as-Salasil. I came to him and said, "Who is the most beloved person to you?" He said, " 'Aisha." I asked, "Among the men?" He said, "Her father." I said, "Who then?" He said, "Then 'Umar bin Al-Khattab." He then named other men.

Volume 5, Book 57, Number 16: Narrated Abu Huraira:
I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "While I was sleeping, I saw myself standing at a well, on it there was a bucket. I drew water from the well as much as Allah wished. Then Ibn Abi Quhafa (i.e. Abu Bakr) took the bucket from me and brought out one or two buckets (of water) and there was weakness in his drawing the water. May Allah forgive his weakness for him. Then the bucket turned into a very big one and Ibn Al-Khattab took it over and I had never seen such a mighty person amongst the people as him in performing such hard work, till the people drank to their satisfaction and watered their camels that knelt down there."

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 22:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Allah's Apostle said, "While I was sleeping I saw (in a dream) some people wearing shirts of which some were reaching up to the breasts only while others were even shorter than that. Umar bin Al-Khattab was shown wearing a shirt that he was dragging." The people asked, "How did you interpret it? (What is its interpretation) O Allah's Apostle?" He (the Prophet ) replied, "It is the Religion."

Brothers, In the name of Allah please keep one thing in your mind that Hazrat Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman, Ali were all Jalil ul Qadr Sahaba and there names are in ashra mubassar (people informed in their life that they will go to Jannah) so how can you point a finger on those characters. Please refrain from it as Prophet SAW loved them very much.

Please let me know if you have any difficulty understanding the above.

Assalam O Alaikum

AliAbbas · December 14, 1998, 4:16pm

Abdulla > Assalam O Alaikum
Abdulla > Brother Imran

Dear br. Abdulla
'Assalam o alaikum.

Abdulla > First of all i want to make a thing very much clear to you, I do not follow (do taqleed) of any
Abdulla > imams you have mentioned. I am not a hanafi or shafaee or from any other firqa. I just follow
Abdulla > what Allah SWT has told us to follow, i.e. Quran and Sunnah of Prophet SAW. I do respect all
Abdulla > the imams, May Allah shower his blessings on them. They did too much for the religion but as
Abdulla > far as Taqleed is concerned i just follow what is stated in Quran.

Even though this post is addressed to br. Imran, I shall take the liberty of sharing some thoughts, and more so will add credence to what I have to say from material that is common between us.

The Quran states: O' you who believe! Obey Allah, and Obey Apostle and those from among you who are given authority * (by Allah). (Quran 4:59) Even though you have denied to accept the authority of the Ahl al Bayt, as the ulil amr (those given authority) as was evident from my article, and I shall repeat that tradition here

It is narrated by Abul Husain Muslim b. al Hajjaj al Nisapuri (also known as Muslim) in his work Sahih Muslim (as well as many other sources) that:

Someday (after his last pilgrimage) the Messenger of God, stood to give us a speech beside a pond, which is known as Khum (Ghadir Khum), located between Mecca and Medina. Then he praised God and reminded of Him, and then said: "O' people! Behold! It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by God) and I shall answer that call. Behold! I am leaving for you two precious things. First of them is the book of God in which there is light and guidance ... The other one is my ahl al bayt. I remind you in the name of God about my ahl al bayt. I remind you in the name of God about my ahl al bayt. I remind you in the name of God about my ahl al bayt. (three times)."

Sahih Muslim, Chapter: The virtues of the companions, Section: The virtues of 'Ali, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1873, tradition: 36. For English version, Chapter CMXCVI, v4, p1286, tradition: 5920

While muslims do not dis-agree with the following of the Quran and the Sunnah, the question, thereat lies at the "source" from where the sunnah reached us. As you have succintly and sufficently shared with us, the source of your sunnah comes from the ashab (i.e the companions). So your statement that you follow only the 'Quran and Sunnah' is false, mis-leading and denies the precedent set by the aya (verse) I shared. In the foregoing para I shall share with you, why the ashab are not the 'ulil 'amr.

My brother also wrote:

Abdulla > About the hadith you have mentioned, the word is Sunnah and not Ahl-e-Bayyt. Just think for a
Abdulla > moment, if its Ahl-e-Bayyt and not Sunnah then thousands of ahadith today become invalid
Abdulla > and of now use because they were not transmitted by a member of the family of Prophet SAW.
Abdulla > I will ask you a question, Is Quran and ahadith (sunnah) more important for you or is Quran
Abdulla > and Ahly-e-Bayyt. Ahlay-Bayt is just a group of very highly respected people like other
Abdulla > sahaba. In Quran Allah SWT says
Abdulla >Atiullah wa iti urrasool "Follow Allah SWT i.e. Quran and follow Rasool (Prophet SAW).

Abdulla > Now how can we follow Prophet SAW, we can follow him by his sunnah, isn't it. We cannot
Abdulla > follow him by Ahyl-e-Bayt, because in that case, we have to do what ever is transmitted by
Abdulla > Ahl-e-bayyt only and the hadiths transmitted by other sahaba becomes invalid as they are not
Abdulla > from ahl-e-bayt.

The Quran and the Ahl al Bayt are important to me, since the Prophet [saw] emphasized it, as evident from Sahih Muslim, and since the Ahl al Bayt are the source of the "authentic" sunnah. Also note, that while there are traditions transmitted on the authority of the ashab, they do not become invalid, but when compared to the traditions narrated by the Imams of the Ahl al Bayt, they do not come close to the essence and the authority carried by them. The very inclusion of the Quran and the Ahl al Bayt in the hadith al thaqalayn speaks of this principle.

While your statement that the Ahl al Bayt are "just is just a group of very highly respected people like other sahaba" is also mis-leading, since the Prophet never ever equated the ashab (companions) with the Quran. On the contrary there are traditions in the works of Bukhari that implicate the ashab (companions) to mis-guidance and deviancy, and thus their eventual earning of displeasure of Allah, subhanahu. This is why they can not be 'Ulil 'amr [those vested with authority as in Quran 4:59] . The evidence is as follows:

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.578 Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount." 'Abdullah added: The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount, and some of you will be brought in front of me till I will see them and then they will be taken away from me and I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' It will be said, 'You do not know what they did after you had left.'

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.584 Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "Some of my companions will come to me at my Lake Fount, and after I recognize them, they will then be taken away from me, whereupon I will say, 'My companions!' Then it will be said, 'You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you." (also Sahih Muslim, part 15, pp 53-54)

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.585 Narrated Abu Hazim from Sahl bin Sa'd: The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor (forerunner) at the Lake- Fount, and whoever will pass by there, he will drink from it and whoever will drink from it, he will never be thirsty. There will come to me some people whom I will recognize, and they will recognize me, but a barrier will be placed between me and them." Abu Hazim added: Nu'man bin Abi 'Aiyash, on hearing me, said. "Did you hear this from Sahl?" I said, "Yes." He said, " I bear witness that I heard Abu Said al-Khudri saying the same, adding that the Prophet said: 'I will say: They are my companions. Then it will be said to me, 'You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you left'. I will say, 'Far removed, far removed (from mercy), those who changed after me." Abu Huraira narrated that the Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection a group of companions will come to me, but will be driven away from the Lake-Fount, and I will say, 'O Lord (those are) my companions!' It will be said, 'You have no knowledge as to what they innovated after you left; they turned apostate as renegades (reverted from the true Islam)."

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.586 Narrated Ibn al-Musaiyab: "Some men from my companions will come to my Lake-Fount and they will be driven away from it, and I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' It will be said, 'You have no knowledge of what they innovated after you left: they turned APOSTATE as renegades (reverted from true Islam)." (also Sahih Muslim, part 10, p64, also P59)

Sahih Bukhari Hadith: 8.587 Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "While I was sleeping, a group (of my followers were brought close to me), and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from amongst (us) me and them, he said (to them), 'Come along.' I asked, 'Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah' I asked, 'what is wrong with them?' He said, 'They turned APOSTATE as renegades after you left.' Then behold! (Another) group (of my followers) were brought close to me, and when I recognized them, a man (an angel) came out from (me and them) he said (to them); Come along.' I asked, "Where?' He said, 'To the (Hell) Fire, by Allah.' I asked, What is wrong with them?' He said, 'They turned APOSTATE as renegades after you left. So I did not see anyone of them escaping except a few who were like camels without a shepherd."

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 8.592 Narrated Asma 'bint Abu Bakr: The Prophet said, "I will be standing at the Lake-Fount so that I will see whom among you will come to me; and some people will be taken away from me, and I will say, 'O Lord, (they are) from me and from my followers.' Then it will be said, 'Did you notice what they did after you? By Allah, they kept on turning on their heels (turned away from true Islam).' " The sub-narrator, Ibn Abi Mulaika said, "O Allah, we seek refuge with You from turning on our heels, or being put to trial in our religion."

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 9.172 Narrated Asma': The Prophet said, "I will be at my Lake-Fount (Kauthar) waiting for whoever will come to me. Then some people will be taken away from me whereupon I will say, 'My followers!' It will be said, 'You do not know they turned APOSTATES as renegades (deserted their religion).'" (Ibn Abi Mulaika said, "Allah, we seek refuge with You from turning on our heels from the (Islamic) religion and from being put to trial").

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 9.173 Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar) and some men amongst you will be brought to me, and when I will try to hand them some water, they will be pulled away from me by force whereupon I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' Then the Almighty will say, 'You do not know what they did after you left, they introduced new things into the religion after you.'"

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 9.174 Narrated Sahl bin Sa'd: I heard the Prophet saying, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar), and whoever will come to it, will drink from it, and whoever will drink from it, will never become thirsty after that. There will come to me some people whom I know and they know me, and then a barrier will be set up between me and them." Abu Sa'id al- Khudri added that the Prophet further said: "I will say those people are from me. It will be said, 'You do not know what changes and new things they did after you.' Then I will say, 'Far removed (from mercy), far removed (from mercy), those who changed after me!' "

Abdulla > You see the advantages in following Quran and Sunnah directly are no one can challenge you
Abdulla > for the validity of your faith. Like if someone asks me why i do so and so act, i tell him so and
Abdulla > so hadith tells me to do it, but had i been following a imam, like imam malik, or imam Hanifa
Abdulla > or imam jafar or any other imam, i would have said that so and so imam has told us to do
Abdulla > without knowing the source of it.

The Prophet also stated that

Whoever wishes to live and die like me, and to abide in the Garden of Eden after death, should acknowledge Ali as WALI after me, and take his WALI (i.e., Imams after him) as WALI, and should follow the Imams after me for they are my Ahlul-Bayt and were created from my clay and are gifted with the same knowledge and understanding as myself. Woe unto those who deny their virtues and those who disregard their relationship and affinity with me, for my intercession shall never reach them. ( Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu'aym, v1, pp 84,86 , al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v3, p128 , al-Jami' al-Kabir, by al-Tabarani , al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani , Kanz al-Ummal, v6, p155 , al-Manaqib, by al-Kharazmi, p34 , Yanabi' al-Mawaddah, by al-Qundoozi al-Hanafi, p149 , History of Ibn Asakir, v2, p95 )
Abdulla > As far as validity of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim is concerned, ya ibn halal, its the most
Abdulla > authentic book and i do not have any knowledge of any invalid hadith. so far.

That is a false statement. Since this is a different matter, I shall discuss it seperately.

Abdulla > Now lets start discussing the basic thing that is our faith. Shia aqeeda allows to do Sajda on
Abdulla > holy shrines also. Now this is a very very big issue which can make a Muslim mushrik.

To have a fruitful dialogue we need to tackle the issues, on a one to one basis. The question of leadership is the subject of our discussion, and hence I shall stick to this for now.

Abdulla > You are welcome to the thread but please refarin from pasting such long messages.

My post was not a "paste". I have authored the article, with the grace of Allah, subhanahu, and assistance of devoted friends and followers of the Ahl al Bayt. We ascribe and expect the same level of scholarship when it comes to a discussion and I hope that we can expect the same from you, insha 'Allah.

My next post shall be on the issue of taqlid and its place within the domain of the Islamic shariah, insha 'Allah. How-ever, I look forward to your response, insha 'Allah!

Abdulla > I am sure that our discussions will be in a very friendly and brotherly environment. May Allah
Abdulla > show us all the right way and fill our hearts with His love and minds with the right knowledge
Abdulla > of His deen.

Abdulla > Assalam O Alaikum

'Amen,

Abbas, Ali
[email protected]*

AliAbbas · December 14, 1998, 4:31pm

'Bismhi Ta'la
'Assalam o alaikum

This is a tradition from the much reverred work from the Ahlal Sunna, sahih al Bukhari. The hadith suggests that the Prophet [saw] attempted to commit suicide, not once, not twice, but thrice. Sufficent is to say that no book other than the book of Allah, subhanahu is authentic, and others need to be assesed in the light of what the Quran has to offer.

If the need so arises, there are many a traditions that refer to the same absurdity.

Iltimase duas,

Abbas, Ali
[email protected]

Volume 9, Book 87, Number 111:

Narrated 'Aisha:

The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good righteous (true) dreams in his sleep. He never had a dream but that it came true like bright day light. He used to go in seclusion (the cave of) Hira where he used to worship(Allah Alone) continuously for many (days) nights. He used to take with him the journey food for that (stay) and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again for another period to stay, till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him in it and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read." (The Prophet added), "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, "I do not know how to read," whereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it anymore. He then released me and asked me again to read, but again I replied, "I do not know how to read (or, what shall I read?)." Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me and then released me and said, "Read: In the Name of your Lord, Who has created (all that exists). Has created man from a clot. Read and Your Lord is Most Generous...up to..... ..that which he knew not." (96.15)

Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration, his neck muscles twitching with terror till he entered upon Khadija and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and then he said, "O Khadija, what is wrong with me?" Then he told her everything that had happened and said, 'I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija said, 'Never! But have the glad tidings, for by Allah, Allah will never disgrace you as you keep good reactions with your Kith and kin, speak the truth, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guest generously and assist the deserving, calamity-afflicted ones." Khadija then accompanied him to (her cousin) Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza bin Qusai. Waraqa was the son of her paternal uncle, i.e., her father's brother, who during the Pre-Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the Arabic writing and used to write of the Gospels in Arabic as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to him, "O my cousin! Listen to the story of your nephew." Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" The Prophet described whatever he had seen.

Waraqa said, "This is the same Namus (i.e., Gabriel, the Angel who keeps the secrets) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they turn me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said: "Never did a man come with something similar to what you have brought but was treated with hostility. If I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains and every time he went up the top of a mountain in order to throw himself down, Gabriel would appear before him and say, "O Muhammad! You are indeed Allah's Apostle in truth" whereupon his heart would become quiet and he would calm down and would return home. And whenever the period of the coming of the inspiration used to become long, he would do as before, but when he used to reach the top of a mountain, Gabriel would appear before him and say to him what he had said before. (Ibn 'Abbas said regarding the meaning of: 'He it is that Cleaves the daybreak (from the darkness)' (6.96) that Al-Asbah. means the light of the sun during the day and the light of the moon at night).

AliAbbas · December 14, 1998, 4:37pm

'Bismihi Ta’la
'Assalam o alaikum

Please find this article on “Taqlid: Its Meaning and Reality” by S. Muhammad Rizvi. at

http://www.al-islam.org/beliefs/practices/taqlid.html

Please note, that since this is not an original contribution, I have shared the URL and not pasted.

'wa alaikum as salam’s

Abbas, Ali
[email protected]

Abdulla · December 15, 1998, 6:32am

Assalam O Alaikum

Brother, thank you for your post and I have opened this thread not to discuss with a single person, anyone can come and take part in the discussion. So you are most welcomed.

Now lets go to our discussion, I thought for a while and then decided that since our source of ahadiths are different because the ones I have mentioned you say those are invalid and some of those you have mentioned I am sure are not valid (the last one specially), but some are authentic and I do believe in them like the one you said about some of the sahaba who would come to the lake … . So let us restrict ourselves to Quran only i.e. all proofs and evidences will be given from Quran.

Let me start with the Ayat you have mentioned, i.e.

Surah Alnisa - 004.059

Ya ayyuhallazina amanu …… wa aulil amri minkum ……

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and very good in the end.

The meaning of aulil amri minkum is those in authority from AMONG YOU, i.e. the Khalifa or the ruler. Now it is totally false to say these are Ahyl-e-bayt. Because its clearly mentioned "Minkum" from AMONG YOU and not Min Ahly-e-Bayt. If at all it was meant Ahlay-Bayt then Allah SWT would have used the same word Ahly-e-Bayt.

Now lets forget for a moment about ahadith. You had mentioned some ayats in your first post.

All people in the eyes of God are equal, for the Quran declared: O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that Ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honored of you in the sight of God is (he who is) most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). (Quran, 49:13)
God does not penalize or reward a servant of His for the sins or good deeds of his parents or his close and distant relatives, as He, states in the Quran: O mankind! Do your duty to your Lord and fear a day when no father can avail aught for his son, nor son avail aught for his father. Verily the promise of God is true: let not then this present life deceive you. Nor let the chief deceiver deceive you about God. (Quran, 31:33)

Now let me make two points clear from the above ayats.

All people are equal, no one has preference on the other but on the basis of his good deeds. So that means Ahl-e-Bayt has no preference on the other muslims but on the basic of deeds. So Ulil Amri cannot be translated as Ahyl-e-Bayt.
God will not reward a servant for the good deeds of his parents or his close distant relatives, So the Ahyl-e-bayt will not get the reward for the good deeds of their forefathers.

From the description of the above two ayats it is crystal clear that Ahyl-bayt has no preference over other Muslims but on the basis of good deeds (personal good deeds)

Not to mention again and again the Ahlay-Bayt i.e. Hazrat Ali RAA, Hazrat Fatima RAA, Hazrat Hussain RAA Hazrat Hassan are all very highly respectable personalities in the eyes of all the Muslims.

So without going into any hadith it is as clear as it can be that No one is better than the other, all are equal in the eye of Allah SWT. Hence the basic faith of shiasm that Ruling is only the right of Ahly-e-Bayt is therefore FALSE.

The hadith you mentioned about the Prophet being at the Lake and … is true. But my friend are you accusing Sahaba like Hazrat Abu Bakr RAA or Hazrat Umer RAA or Hazrat Usman RAA ? I would like to know the answer of this question please.

Wa ma alaina illal balagh.
Assalam O Alaikum.

AliAbbas · December 15, 1998, 4:24pm

Dear br. Abdulla
'wa alaikum as salam's

Assalam O Alaikum
Brother, thank you for your post and I have
opened this thread not to discuss with a single
person, anyone can come and take part in the
discussion. So you are most welcomed.

Now lets go to our discussion, I thought for a
while and then decided that since our source of
ahadiths are different because the ones I have
mentioned you say those are invalid and some of
those you have mentioned I am sure are not valid
(the last one specially), but some are authentic
and I do believe in them like the one you said
about some of the sahaba who would come to the
lake. So let us restrict ourselves to Quran only
i.e. all proofs and evidences will be given from Quran.

May I ask, why you have refrained to treat the subject
of the apostacy of the sahaba, and resorted to the
Quran only method? Doesn't the sunna and the hadith
explain the Quran? From your previous postings, we all
have gathered your treatment of Sahih al Bukhari is an
authentic book.

In any case, I'll continue.

Let me start with the Ayat you have mentioned, i.e.

Surah Alnisa - 004.059

Ya ayyuhallazina amanu …… wa aulil amri minkum ……

O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Messenger
and those in authority from among you; then if you
quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the
Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day;
this is better and very good in the end.

The meaning of aulil amri minkum is those in authority
from AMONG YOU, i.e. the Khalifa or the ruler. Now it
is totally false to say these are Ahyl-e-bayt. Because
its clearly mentioned "Minkum" from AMONG YOU and
not Min Ahly-e-Bayt. If at all it was meant Ahlay-Bayt
then Allah SWT would have used the same word Ahly-e-Bayt.

The Ulil amr, are not the rulers or even the Caliphs,
since the present day rulers of the muslims are tyrants
and oppressors. By your logic, Saddam Hussein is the
Ulil amr to the Iraqi people, since he is their ruler,
and more so Saddam will be very pleased to know, that
his rulership finds its sanctity in the Quran. What a
false understanding. Surely, Yazid will also be very
pleased, since he was from "among you", and Imam
Husain [a] did not understand this relatively simple
concept, Allah forbid! What rubbish. Also the Quran is
full of verses that forbid obedience to the unjust and
the oppresors. It would have been impossible for Allah
to order us to obey them, after all the prohibition [due
to their tyranny], and then go to a step fruther and join
their obedience with His and the Messengers obedience.

If the Quran enjoins on the believers to obey Allah, the
Messenger and the 'Ulil 'amr it becomes more so understand-
able, that they ought to be identified, and this brings us
to the question, why doesn't the verse say 'Ahl al Bayt',
and how does the Messenger of Allah identify the 'Ulil 'amr?
I state these observations:

Allah revealed the order of salah to the Messenger,
but he did not name three or four, until it was the
Messenger of Allah, who explained it.
Allah revealed the order of hajj, and did not reveal
the circumamulation of it seven times, since the Messenger
of Allah, explained it.
Allah also revealed the exoneration of Bibi 'Aisha
from the slander of the hypocrites, yet the Quran does
not make a reference to her name, since the life of the
Messenger of Allah reveals it.

Thus, in respect of the 'ulil amr, the Messenger of
Allah said,

Someday (after his last pilgrimage) the Messenger of God,
stood to give us a speech beside a pond, which is known as
Khum (Ghadir Khum), located between Mecca and Medina. Then
he praised God and reminded of Him, and then said: "O'
people! Behold! It seems the time approached when I shall
be called away (by God) and I shall answer that call. Behold!
I am leaving for you two precious things. First of them is
the book of God in which there is light and guidance ...
The other one is my ahl al bayt. I remind you in the name
of God about my ahl al bayt. I remind you in the name of
God about my ahl al bayt. I remind you in the name of God
about my ahl al bayt. (three times)."

Sahih Muslim, Chapter: The virtues of the companions,
Section: The virtues of 'Ali, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi
Arabia, Arabic version, v4, p1873, tradition: 36. For
English version, Chapter CMXCVI, v4, p1286, tradition:
5920