Left over women

[Insaaniyat]

Re: Left over women

The whole point of this debate was to discuss China’s leftover women. Some users thought this was a good opportunity to promote a socially damaging ideal so I wanted too suggest better solutions. I am the one who wants to encourage cross cultural marriages simply becaause of large gender imbalances like these in certain countries. In certain countries where women’s population is larger people usually parrot on and on about polygamy as being a realistic solution but when it comes to countries where there are more men than women in the world [in most countries the male population is larger than the female population] they take double standards and do not care about the excess men. It seems our men[and women] only care for the excess amounts of women and not the excess amount of men in numerous countries. It seems people like Namaan only want to take advantage of certain situations.

Would he ever suggest polyandry as a solution for the massive gender gap in most countries? [Religious issue aside]

Anyway polygamy is dangerous for society. Monogamous societies have historically always been safer due to the large vacuum of men who are unable to marry in polygamous societies due to less number of women availabale and men without families to support have usually taken to crime.

Monogamy 'safer' than polygamy

The Iona Institute

http://www.sheilaless.com/drigger/Unmarried/Monogamous_societies_are_safer_reveals_study/related_links

And leaving aside this fact there was another study on women in monogamous and polygamous relationships. The ones in monogamous relationships were on average less stressed and more emotionally relaxed than women in polygamous relationships.

[X2]

Re: Left over women

@Insaaniyat

You may think I am dumb when ''misunderstanding'' your sarcasm but I raised a very vital point that you just missed. If you visit non-muslim forums you can see that their views are shaped by what they read by Muslims, even if it was meant to be a joke they will take it the wrong way because a man joking about a women's issue still displays his mentality towards women. Now if you want to get rid of the chauvinist image of Muslim men you would refrain from the use of such statements too, however sarcastially innocent they may be

I dont care if some ignorant dude is going to read one sentence and quote it in whatever context he sees fit for his agenda. They do it with the word of god, and I am but a man. I mean a suave debonair handsome type but still just a man. I am not going to watch every word and have disclaimers and fine print just so some random dude somewhere sometime is stripped of an opportunity to use some words to suit his agenda.

[Huma_1]

Re: Left over women

@Insaaniyat

You may think I am dumb when ''misunderstanding'' your sarcasm but I raised a very vital point that you just missed. If you visit non-muslim forums you can see that their views are shaped by what they read by Muslims, even if it was meant to be a joke they will take it the wrong way because a man joking about a women's issue still displays his mentality towards women. Now if you want to get rid of the chauvinist image of Muslim men you would refrain from the use of such statements too, however sarcastially innocent they may be

Who cares if some ignorant non-muslims take a joke the wrong way? Putting an end to sarcasm on an online forum is not the way to portray a positive image of Muslims. Can you judge an entire population because of what someone on youtube said jokingly? Or even seriously for that matter?

[Insaaniyat]

Re: Left over women

@Huma

Who cares if some ignorant non-muslims take a joke the wrong way? Putting an end to sarcasm on an online forum is not the way to portray a positive image of Muslims. Can you judge an entire population because of what someone on youtube said jokingly? Or even seriously for that matter?

Yes Huma in the present environment of hostility between Muslims and non-Muslims it certainly does. When men joke about women as if they are some sort of commodity for sexu*l purposes it displays their mental level. Its vulgar. BUT on a very serious note when a man brings in Islamic topics like Misyar and Mutah into the joke it creates a pre-conceived impression of Islam, as people judge Islam for ''allowing'' fun. I don't think you have ever met any non-muslim and seen what they think about lust and muslim men and how they ee us as hypocrites for judging them on immorality.

[X2]

Re: Left over women

Insaniyat- btw the word insanitary was not on purpose, was posting from iPhone and autocorrect kicked in
so okay lets try again, because I think the topic is a valuable one.

What you are saying is true, and what namaan is saying is true..
this is not a muslim men issue, its a certain type of muslim men issue, but this is not the only thing of some muslim men we have to deal with, we have to deal with the extremists and how their crap may reflect on us. whether it is the crazies killing people or the HT, mohajiroun, ghuraba, and assorted idiots like anjem chodry.

Now, of these muslim men who are in this whole polygamy for the sake of their crap...you can go and see previous posts of mine and the disgust I have for them milking the social services in UK, but I digress.

The big issue is how these jackholes are raised, there are nations where muttah is allowed...and soon certain ppl with major overrriding but stealth allegiances may join and and jump all over this, and same goes for misyaar. They are growing up with that mindset, they are exporting that and infecting others with that...just like polygamy just because. It is a certain mindset...I dont know stats on it, but can hazard a guess of background of the perps in terms of nations they may hail from one, size of towns they or their families hail from as another, education level and quality as another, and the level of 'brother-ness' as another.

what surprises me is the broader community who sits back and does not report these type of people.

In the end, we agree more than we disagree, I just dont attribute it to muslim men in general and dont feel muslim men in general need to go out of their way to fight some projected image, its a whole community thing, and it starts with shunning these type of characters and really just calling the cops on it...if their families are living on the dole, as many are...they will continue to live on the dole. The dude's sex life would be more with bubba in the prison for a while though.

The excuse that this way they are supporting a woman and protecting her simply does not hold true today. to that i say to them..U know what, treat her like a sister, support her financially and help her find a mate if you are so damn concerned.

anyhoo..hope we understand each other better.

I still am here to engage with people here, and not even everyone here..not everyone has to get my style, approach, thats cool. let alone some nameless, faceless, hypothetical hillbilly type :)

PS: next sentence is not for you..
PS2: hey random hillbilly reading my previous post, now read this one, and feel free to selectively quote me.. ya ignorant loser

[Southie]

Re: Left over women

Insaaniyst's posts are really thought provoking. Nice arguments against polygamy. Provided some good solutions in earlier posts - cross cultural marriages to take care of imbalances in gender ratio. Really liked the recentest post on polygamy/ polyandry.



Game, set, match.

[X2]

Re: Left over women

@Insaaniyat

Yes Huma in the present environment of hostility between Muslims and non-Muslims it certainly does. When men joke about women as if they are some sort of commodity for sexu*l purposes it displays their mental level. Its vulgar. BUT on a very serious note when a man brings in Islamic topics like Misyar and Mutah into the joke it creates a pre-conceived impression of Islam, as people judge Islam for ''allowing'' fun. I don't think you have ever met any non-muslim and seen what they think about lust and muslim men and how they ee us as hypocrites for judging them on immorality.

Mate..please dont assume what the exposure and background of others is..

Huma is not in lala musa or bhai pheroo..and I am not in gujraan wala or mianwali..

I am a brit, I have lived in saudi arabia and pakistan. I am now in US, have lived in small town and big cities, have non muslim and muslim pals, and have met nonmuslim and muslim jacque arses globally. Have been active in many organizations over the years, and maintain that there are ppl who want to engage and learn and there are people who simply have too much hate and ignorance to reason with, whether it is some racist BNP yob in UK, some uber right winger racist in US, extremist in Pakistan...we cant cater our interactions with others because of what that type would get out of it.

[Insaaniyat]

Re: Left over women

@X2

Insaniyat- btw the word insanitary was not on purpose, was posting from iPhone and autocorrect kicked in so okay lets try again, because I think the topic is a valuable one.

What you are saying is true, and what namaan is saying is true.. this is not a muslim men issue, its a certain type of muslim men issue, but this is not the only thing of some muslim men we have to deal with, we have to deal with the extremists and how their crap may reflect on us. whether it is the crazies killing people or the HT, mohajiroun, ghuraba, and assorted idiots like anjem chodry.

Now, of these muslim men who are in this whole polygamy for the sake of their crap...you can go and see previous posts of mine and the disgust I have for them milking the social services in UK, but I digress.

The big issue is how these jackholes are raised, there are nations where muttah is allowed...and soon certain ppl with major overrriding but stealth allegiances may join and and jump all over this, and same goes for misyaar. They are growing up with that mindset, they are exporting that and infecting others with that...just like polygamy just because. It is a certain mindset...I dont know stats on it, but can hazard a guess of background of the perps in terms of nations they may hail from one, size of towns they or their families hail from as another, education level and quality as another, and the level of 'brother-ness' as another.

what surprises me is the broader community who sits back and does not report these type of people.

In the end, we agree more than we disagree, I just dont attribute it to muslim men in general and dont feel muslim men in general need to go out of their way to fight some projected image, its a whole community thing, and it starts with shunning these type of characters and really just calling the cops on it...if their families are living on the dole, as many are...they will continue to live on the dole. The dude's sex life would be more with bubba in the prison for a while though.

The excuse that this way they are supporting a woman and protecting her simply does not hold true today. to that i say to them..U know what, treat her like a sister, support her financially and help her find a mate if you are so damn concerned.

anyhoo..hope we understand each other better.

I still am here to engage with people here, and not even everyone here..not everyone has to get my style, approach, thats cool. let alone some nameless, faceless, hypothetical hillbilly type :)

PS: next sentence is not for you.. PS2: hey random hillbilly reading my previous post, now read this one, and feel free to selectively quote me.. ya ignorant loser

Jazakallah X2. We do agee. Sorry if you got offended.

Historically polygamy could have been channelled for good purposes though. I have to admit that. But such cases were few and far between and are no longer relevant to us. And polygamy as a whole has little to do with Islam but more to do with humans, snce Islam was the first one to restrict polygamy and recommend monogamy. All the bad stuff that these Muslim men do comes from themselves, in my opinion. Islam itself is innocent of polygamy in my opinion since it was the one which discouraged it while living in a polygamous environment.

[X2]

Re: Left over women

no offense taken, its all good.

[Huma_1]

Re: Left over women

@Insaaniyat

Yes Huma in the present environment of hostility between Muslims and non-Muslims it certainly does. When men joke about women as if they are some sort of commodity for sexu*l purposes it displays their mental level. Its vulgar. BUT on a very serious note when a man brings in Islamic topics like Misyar and Mutah into the joke it creates a pre-conceived impression of Islam, as people judge Islam for ''allowing'' fun. I don't think you have ever met any non-muslim and seen what they think about lust and muslim men and how they ee us as hypocrites for judging them on immorality.

If they're too lame to do some real reading to educate themselves about Islam instead of calling us terrorists or rapists then I for one don't care. This hostility you speak of is usually more prominent on the internet because people abuse the anonymity veil. In real life, we mostly live in harmony bar a handful of retards on both sides. Even if you do come across someone hateful, you can use that opportunity to clarify his misunderstandings and explain to him the status of women in Islam. If he still doesn't give a damn then why should you? You can condemn the sexual objectification of women but you don't have to be apologetic on behalf of men who actually do disrespect women because that has nothing to do with religion.

[Huma_1]

Re: Left over women

@X2

PS2: hey random hillbilly reading my previous post, now read this one, and feel free to selectively quote me.. ya ignorant loser

Pir ji tusi great ho!

[Scherbatsky]

Re: Left over women

@Zafra

How else are they gonna invade and take over the world? 1 child policy has definitely dented their plans for global domination. That and pinky eating their master plan with mustard.

Still doesn't make much sense. If that's the case then the focus should be on procreation between the "Class A" men and women (as illustrated in the article)? Not marriage. And certainly not on isolating Class A women by calling them leftovers.

[Zafra]

Re: Left over women

@Scherbatsky

Still doesn't make much sense. If that's the case then the focus should be on procreation between the "Class A" men and women (as illustrated in the article)? Not marriage. And certainly not on isolating Class A women by calling them leftovers.

Well simply put society has made it a requirement to have some form of religious or legal cover to procreate. Its the notion that this is what differentiates us from the savages. Christians, Muslims and Jews all feel this way when it comes to one night stands in society and civil unions where a legal agreement is made but not a religious. Marriage is after all a religious institution.

Secondly like all societies China is mainly patriarchal and under going a gender dynamic transformation like the west under went in the 1970s and 1980s. So you have a bunch of intelligent, hardworking women (which supposedly makes them Class A women - which is completely retarded in my opinion) who are single and unwilling to marry. The Chinese government wishes them to procreate but within socially acceptable parameters. That is unacceptable to some women so the policy is to embarrass, shame and ridicule them into submission. Lets see how far it gets.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Left over women

I'm not sure why everyone is arguing for polygamy. I'm clearly a single woman who wants to get married so for those of you who are advocating polygamy, why am I not getting invites to join? Or ... At that point , does polygamy suddenly become a serious scary issue ?

[X2]

Re: Left over women

I was only advocating muttah until insaniyat kicked my butt :(

[Scherbatsky]

Re: Left over women

I'm not sure why everyone is arguing for polygamy. I'm clearly a single woman who wants to get married so for those of you who are advocating polygamy, why am I not getting invites to join? Or ... At that point , does polygamy suddenly become a serious scary issue ?

Excellent point, the silence is deafening.

[Zafra]

Re: Left over women

Nope its because nobody wants to be rude to the poster you quoted.