Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
My first comment was a sarcastic remark.
Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
It took uncle sam 10 years to lose a war against a group that doesnt even have a centralized command structure. You have changed the entire definition of success.
US jab chahay kisi ki bhi band baja sakta hay. They won the war in Iran and Afghanistan without any difficulty. The war on terror is another thing. Many factors are involved.
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All modern weapons are 'highly accurate killing machines', whether its a drone, or a cruise missile, ICBM, nukes, guns, revolvers, you name it. They are all accurate. Problem is that each of these weapons has a different rate of collateral damage...and drones have had some of the highest ratio of collateral damage.
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*None other than "Maut ke saudagar" are responsible for that. *
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Problem is, none of us has lost a loved one in collateral damage, which is why making screaming statements in favor of drones comes pretty easy. The day that happens, your point of view may change.
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I don't know why you sympathize "maut ke saugar"? How many innocent people have they killed in last 9 years? Do you have any other option to deal with theses animals?
Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
Can you please using a poetic expression to describe a group of monstrous killers?
Maut ke saudagar...sounds like title of a cheesy 80s Bollywood flick.
Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
US jab chahay kisi ki bhi band baja sakta hay. They won the war in Iran and Afghanistan without any difficulty. The war on terror is another thing. Many factors are involved.
Like I said before, you have changed the entire definition of success. If what US accomplished in Iraq and Afghanistan is your concept of victory, then I guess Vietnam was a landslide.
And about war on terror being 'another thing', what else did the yanks come in for, if not for the 'war on terror'? Oh right....war OF terror.
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None other than "Maut ke saudagar" are responsible for that.
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**A very nice way to justify cold blooded murder of innocents. People who live in the vicinity of an alleged terrorist are asking for it, because they share the same land. Why not just nuke the place then?
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I don't know why you sympathize "maut ke saugar"? How many innocent people have they killed in last 9 years? Do you have any other option to deal with theses animals?
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Dont misquote me. I never sympathized with criminals or terrorists, whether they are from TTP, MQM, PPP or Alqaeda. I have always talked against drone attacks, because unlike what you believe, drones are fired based on shoddy intelligence, into heavily populated areas, knowing fully well that civilians are present.
Dealing with terrorists is the responsibility of law enforcement agencies. And our law enforcement agencies are governed by our politicians, who in many cases patronize these criminal elements, which is why they have failed. Only solution is to depoliticize the law enforcement agencies, and let them do their job the way they are supposed to.
Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
You are right. But Pakistan army has not that drone technology hence they rely on Sam. As long as these drones target 'maut ke saudagar' finance by SA, I have really no objection. In fact, it is high time that Pakistan army really request this technology for themselves as Sam is about to leave in 2014. What British could not succeed in rugged mountains of Khyber, Sam succeeded in carrying out operation from control rooms even located in America.:)
Drones are not the solution, direct confrontation is when the problem will be solved. Army needs big time operation with sincerity if they really wish to.
Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
Karae kay fauji are required to kill maut kay saudagar?
It is about time that pakistani forces should decide what they want to do, keep on licking ... of Us and NATO forces or start working for the benefit of pakistan for what they are paid for.
Shame on them on supporting killing of so many innocents, pakistani army(components of ) are directly responsible for letting this happen. By no means one can allow murders/kidnappings of civilians(the way rangers have killed few in karachi is just a hint of what happens in wazirstan and else where) in guise of what you beleive/or paid to believe is right.
Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
^ should the army let the taleban keep on carrying their killing spree?
Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
^ should the army let the taleban keep on carrying their killing spree?
Does this by any mean justify killing your civilian population? kidnapping what you think are terrorist but can not prove?
Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
Does this by any mean justify killing your civilian population? kidnapping what you think are terrorist but can not prove?
It does not mean punishing innocents. Are you fine if the army punishes the terrorists?
Who are those who the army thinks are terrorists but they can't prove it? Do malik ishaq, ehsan Ullah ehsan and hakimullah mehsud fall into that category?
Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
We are discussing about killing of innocents here. if some one is involved in killing of innocents be it taliban or pakistan army should be punished. Agreed?
obviously i am not trying to support those crooks and those ou mentioned are not missing, innocent people are missing who lateron charged as being killed in some raid or their bodies just dumped in some place.
and read this
Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
Innocents should be spared by both parties (TTP and Pakistan Army).
Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
Innocents should be spared by both parties (TTP and Pakistan Army).
TTP would be jobless in that case.
Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
TTP would be jobless in that case.
they are already losing some members to other jehadi missions around the world. ;)
Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
Karae kay fauji are required to kill maut kay saudagar?
It is about time that pakistani forces should decide what they want to do, keep on licking ... of Us and NATO forces or start working for the benefit of pakistan for what they are paid for.
Shame on them on supporting killing of so many innocents, pakistani army(components of ) are directly responsible for letting this happen. By no means one can allow murders/kidnappings of civilians(the way rangers have killed few in karachi is just a hint of what happens in wazirstan and else where) in guise of what you beleive/or paid to believe is right.
ghulam qaum nai ghulam politicians ko elect kia hai to army bhi ghulam hi hogi na
Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
Who are those who the army thinks are terrorists but they can't prove it? Do malik ishaq, ehsan Ullah ehsan and hakimullah mehsud fall into that category?
Regardless of what the army thinks, doesnt the 'proving' part fall under the realm of the civilian govt, attorney generals, prosecutors etc?
Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
I agree. After 10 long years we dont have any counter terror policy, intelligence sharing and changes in anti terror law (witness protection/changes in evidence laws).
Our police lack the training and technology to collect forensic evidence. In cities where crime and violence is high, police and intelligence networks operate underground to catch criminals but in Pakistan, we rarely see such sting operations. In many cases, the law-enforcement authorities are hampered by their own politicisation. Apart from this, witnesses do not like coming forward when they know that the state cannot protect them or their families. In the absence of an effective witness protection programme, it is unfair to ask ordinary citizens to come forward so the authorities could nab criminals. Not only are witnesses scared to come forward, sometimes the judges and prosecutors are wary of punishing these killers for they, too, are often targeted.
Under these circumstances, it would be better if technology is used to remove the physical presence of the judge and prosecutors during the proceedings of the case in order to protect their identities. This way, the judges and prosecutors can do their jobs without any pressure or threats. There is an urgent need for an improved law of evidence, having a good witness protection programme and the need to train the police in gathering evidence and stopping the practice of arresting suspects before solid evidence, which would stand in a court of law, is gathered.
Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
Problem is, none of us has lost a loved one in collateral damage, which is why making screaming statements in favor of drones comes pretty easy. The day that happens, your point of view may change.
Have you read the full report of OP? Before jumping up and down and blaming Sam, pehlay apna ghar to sahih kar lo. The report is based on assumptions not the facts. Read the following excerpt taken from the report
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**In his final judgment Chief Justice Khan, citing ‘Political Authorities’ in FATA, said that 896 civilians had been killed by the CIA between 2007 and 2012 in North Waziristan, with a further 533 civilian deaths in South Waziristan.
Those figures indicate that FATA officials may now be claiming a far higher civilian death toll than that reported by the leaked document - although the source for those claims is not clear.
‘How come the same civil servants are feeding one kind of data to the Peshawar High Court and another kind of data to the FATA secretariat?’ asked Shahzad Akbar, the Pakistani barrister behind the successful Peshawar case. ‘Are they fudging the numbers based on who was on the receiving end?’
US counter-terrorism officials declined to comment on the specifics of the leaked document, though referred the Bureau to recent comments by both President Obama and CIA Director Brennan stating that the US goes to great lengths to limit civilian deaths in covert drone strikes.**
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Which data provided by civil servants you consider is the truth; PHC or FATA secretarait? Because they are different. The copy of letter is censored, who was the target where two children were dead with him? Why children were sleeping with "maut ka saudagar" knowing that he would be target of drone? Above letter is a proof what I am saying. It is not Sam but these 'maut ke saudagar' who make shields with their children and women and other relatives are responsible for their deaths. You are supporting this nonsense just because your leader stupidly saying that and he even does know what he is talking about?
Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
Forget the above 2 sources. Have a read of your own US sources instead.
Quite unbelievable, even coming from a drone apologist. You are either blaming the children for sleeping with the ‘terrorist’, or you are saying that US is justified in bombing him, regardless of who else is with him. Terrorists bomb a police car, killing 5 police personnel, and 2 or 3 civilians alongside. They use the same justification as you do…the civilians were in the way. So essentially, there are no good guys in this war. Its one terrorist outfit against another.
And I am not towing ‘my leader’s’ line. I can think on my own.
Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
I am not justifying anything here. Do you have better option to stop these “maut ke saudagar” who kill mostly the innocent poor people of Pakistan.
Re: Leaked Pakistani report confirms high civilian death toll in CIA drone strikes
US drastically scales back drone strikes in Pakistan - DAWN.COM
US drastically scales back drone strikes in Pakistan
In this Saturday, April 23, 2011 file photo, women supporters of a political party rally in Peshawar against U.S. drone strikes in Pakistan. — AP Photo.
**Updated **2013-07-26 13:36:10
ISLAMABAD: The United States has drastically scaled back the number of drone attacks against militants in Pakistan and has limited strikes to high-value targets in response to growing criticism of the program in the country.
Those actions appear to have temporarily appeased Pakistan’s powerful generals, who publicly oppose the covert CIA strikes, US officials said. But some officials are still worried about pushback from Pakistan’s new civilian leaders, who took power in June with a strong stance on ending the attacks altogether.
The future of the drone program is likely to be a key item on the agenda during US Secretary of State John Kerry’s visit to Pakistan, which is expected soon. Only 16 drone strikes have taken place in Pakistan so far this year, compared with a peak of 122 in 2010, 73 in 2011 and 48 in 2012, according to the New America Foundation, a US-based think tank.
The CIA has been instructed to be more cautious with its attacks, limiting them to high-value targets and dropping the practice of so-called ‘‘signature strikes’’ — hitting larger groups of suspected militants based purely on their behaviour, such as being armed and meeting with known militants, said a current US intelligence official and a former intelligence official briefed on the drone program.
The CIA embraced the measures, feeling the drone program may be under threat from public scrutiny, the officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorised to discuss the classified program publicly.
Two other senior American officials said the US scaled back the number of attacks and tightened up its targeting criteria as a concession to the Pakistani army, which some consider the final arbiter on the future of the drone program.
Senior Pakistani army officers made it clear that the program could not continue at the tempo it was being carried out and expressed concern that civilian casualties were breeding more militants, said the US officials, speaking on condition of anonymity.
The circumstances surrounding a strike on July 3 in North Waziristan illustrated Washington’s intention to go after well-identified targets only, said one of the officials. The attack on a house, which killed at least 16 suspected militants, was backed up by ‘‘hugely detailed’’ intelligence laid out in a 32-page PowerPoint presentation.
The intelligence indicated the target was a gathering of militants from the Haqqani network who were plotting a second attack on the Ariana Hotel in the Afghan capital of Kabul, said the official. The Ariana Hotel has long been suspected of being used by the CIA as a listening post.
President Barack Obama signalled the administration’s new approach to drones in a landmark speech in May in which he said attacks would be carried out only on ‘‘terrorists who pose a continuing and imminent threat to the American people’’ and when there is ‘‘near-certainty that no civilians will be killed or injured.’’
Senior US officials insist they continue to have a secret agreement with Pakistan, or at least from the army, to conduct drone strikes.
But even that agreement seems to be based more on Pakistan’s fear of what would happen if it stood up to the US on drone strikes, rather than a real desire to see the program continue. Pakistan relies on the US for hundreds of millions of dollars in civilian and military aid, and even more importantly, for support in getting a $5 billion bailout the country desperately needs from the International Monetary Fund.
The two senior US officials said Pakistani army chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani recognises that the White House views drone attacks as vital to its campaign against Al Qaeda and the Taliban, but looks forward to a day when they can stop altogether.
The Pakistani army denied the allegation that Kayani consents to the strikes, calling it an attempt to malign the country and its security agencies. Some Pakistani officials say the drone program has been useful in the past in killing militants but now draws too much attention and controversy, especially after the covert US raid that killed Osama bin Laden in 2011 outraged many who saw it as a violation of the country’s sovereignty.
These officials believe Pakistan must be given greater participation in the strikes, or they must be replaced by attacks carried out by the Pakistanis themselves — either with drones given to them by the Americans or their own F-16s.
Pakistan’s request that drone technology be transferred to the country is a non-starter because of US fear that highly classified information would make its way to China, a close ally of Islamabad.
US officials often point to Pakistan’s failure to shoot down the slow-flying drones as evidence that they aren’t sincere in wanting the program to stop, although this would likely cause a huge crisis in relations between the two countries. They also point to the failure of Pakistan to push the issue aggressively with the United Nations or other international organisations.
But some US officials are worried that Pakistan’s new civilian leaders, especially Interior Minister Chaudhry Nisar Ali Khan, may spark a crisis over the drone program. Khan said this month that Pakistan has conveyed to the US that the drone strikes could lead to a “direct standoff” and “could have serious implications on the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan, as well as the post-withdrawal scenario,” according to Pakistan’s state news agency.
The US military is trucking much of its equipment out of landlocked Afghanistan through Pakistan. Some Pakistani lawmakers have previously advocated preventing the US from using the route unless they stop drone strikes.
Senior Pakistani civilian and military officials have publicly criticised US drone attacks in the past while consenting to them in private. The officials and some rights activists have also claimed the attacks have killed large numbers of civilians, an allegation disputed by the US. The comments have whipped up opposition to drones among the Pakistani public.