Layers of Cultural Values and Social Behavior

Arts & Culture Culture, Arts, Literature & Linguistics
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This is probably true for all societies but it really strikes you about Pakistani society. There are so many layers of cultural values among a population that is ethnically the same. Just driving down from my house to work everyday I can see people, everyone a Pakistani inhabiting the same city, who belong to such different worlds culturally.

There are those people in Pakistan who don’t have tv’s or radio in their houses, and their womenfolk observe full pardah and hardly ever leave the house. Then there are those who observe some degree of pardah but are still conservative while there are some who are very westernised and liberal in their social behavior.

There’s a lot of rural urban migration in Pakistan. I’m wondering, to a pathan who comes to lets say Karachi or Lahore in his twenties straight from a secluded hilly settlement in NWFP for example, a phenomenon which is very common, everything must be a big culture shock. He’ll prolly think that girls with heads uncovered who are having lunch with male colleagues in a restaurant do not have good morals because that is what he has been taught all his life that women should not mix with opposite gender and observe full pardah. To him that is what defines a woman’s virtuosity. But for those girls thats just normal, its their way of life. I guess its kind of similar to when desis go to America.

But doesn’t all this give rise to a confused, divided, non-homogenous nation? People who experience huge cultural transitions cannot stick to the norms they have been brought up but they cannot even assimilate themselves to their new surroundings completely. Their upbringing and deeply ingrained cultural concepts will always pull them back from being too liberal but they will also not be able to go back to their old conservative ways because apart from the fact that they themselves have evolved, those old ways are also not applicable to their new surroundings.

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This is the part of our Society… ye.. Its Multi Layered and I would say it has Micro layers as well.
As U mentiond the example of a Pathan come to Khi from som Backward area and mountains Offourse it will be Mental shcock for him. And U are totally right abt the fact wat he will think of the gals when he see there.
For Cities ppl this is just normal BUT… For the ppl who are nor used to it is.. JUT . something like :eek:

Ye sab.. Mental Levels, bantay haiN Environment of Broughtup se…
In same Society… I mean.. In the same City… In same neighbourhood, U will see lots of Diff in the thinking.

Some ppl cant even think ke jo laRki baghair parde ke ghar se nikalti hay wo MORALY theek bhi ho sakti hay… Bcoz… UnhooN ne jiss mahooL maiN hosh sanbhala hay.. THat is somehting diff… and.. They are right as per their own thinking…

I totaly agree to U… Our society is multi layered and thats Y U will see lots of Problems…
Its not only bcoz of the Areas.. its Bcoz of the Education system as well, we have so many types of Education system… Jiss ki wajj se mental Level change hojata hay..

Wat can we do for it…? I dont think we have some short or medium term solutions… There might be some VERY LONG term solutions.. BUT stilll WHO KNOWS :slight_smile:

:wave:

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^

thanks for ur response :-)

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Golden_Scorpion: *
Some ppl cant even think ke jo laRki baghair parde ke ghar se nikalti hay wo MORALY theek bhi ho sakti hay.... Bcoz... UnhooN ne jiss mahooL maiN hosh sanbhala hay.. THat is somehting diff... and.. They are right as per their own thinking...

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u said they r right in their own thinking...i can understand why they would think that but shouldn't they control their thought process? i mean isnt that unfair towards the girl whom they r labelling as immoral? what's her fault?

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I would say that if those people like Pathans want to remain in their own culture they should stay in the NWFP. I'm not saying that to be nasty, I've got Pathan friends, what i notice with these guys is that when they are abroad they don't have any problems selling alcohol (same goes for the mirpuris) but they make sure the women stick to the burkhas pretty firmly. I don't really understand how they work out that morality.

So let's say someone from a very conservative background goes to Lahore or Karachi. Why would they want to go there knowing that life is going to be more flash than what they are used to?

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Mr Xtreme, thanks for your response.

I think the primary factor is money. There's not too many opportunities to earn a decent living and specially to make economic progress through the generations in the areas where these people come from.

I've seen such cases too where people's behavior seems morally self contradictory, but then again maybe that contradiction lies only in our perception!

However, I think even if one wants to its impossible for them to change the ideas or value systems that are deep rooted in their thinking and which their families adhere to.

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irem; I'd say that applies everywhere,..you have people in every country who are more conservative than others. That doesn't conflict with identity..many people from the Bible belt in the US might have a hard time in some big cities in the US. Also that conservative nature is very much the part of Baloch, Sindhi, Seraiki and Punjabi culture as well...I am sure people who come to Karachi do so out of economic majboori...if the government invested more in their own areas..things might be different.

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Irem,

I've got no problem with people moving to make money, just would have a problem if they start criticising their new home for not being as conservative as where they come from. That's probably one of the reasons why they can make money!

Say a guy from that area wants to open a photo studio. He wouldn't be able to do that where he is but then he could if he moved out. So who's fault is that? Where he's left or where he's going?

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and yeah Zakk, I come from a pretty traditional background myself so I could be sitting on a manji picking flies out of my tea right now but I'm not.

I mean that has it's attractions as well but I'm here and it's ok, no complaints on the whole.

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^ good point madhanee..diversity over more of the same anyday.

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i guess i'd like diversity when theres respect for the diverse.

in karachi for instance, you could be an unemployed pedophile consorting with someone half your age, and the issue for the gem of a lad, if you're urdu speaking would be that she is punjabi.

biharis are so universally reviled that they're actually afraid to say they're biharis. I know a bihari family that actually have themselves registered as UP migrants. Atleast the urdu speaking people dont discriminate then.

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ravage, i have to agree. diversity exploited as differences on which then some base prejudice, sectarianism, provincialism, and ethnic hatred, is too common.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Madhanee: *
Ravage, well, what are the guarantees that there wont be any unemployed pedophiles in a not so diverse society?

[/QUOTE]

that wasnt the point. point is "unemployed pedophile" wasnt the issue when that happend.. "punjabi girl" was.

[QUOTE]

In Karachi, we need people fit to provide “leadership” that looks beyond ethnicity, religion, etc. We have no option/choice other than to learn to live with it. That is what differentiates us from Hitler and Yayha and Tika Khans of the world.
[/QUOTE]

Specifically in the context of ethnicity, in my opinion our ethnic intolerance is rooted in the psyche of our people, and our leadership have done little to impact it positively, or negatively. Sure people like Ayub Khan, Gohar Ayub, Altaf Hussain, Nawaz Sharif have exploited it, but it was always there to exploit.

Im not sure what leaders can do to "enforce" tolerance. Laws against manifested bigotry probably do exist, but theres no laws for controlling how people think. In the pedophile case, much as you'd want state action against those seeking to make it a case of ethnicity, you cant.

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ravage - I’m surprised with your example of the bihari family that is ashamed of its ethnicity. I’ve known many biharis but never some across that. From what I have seen, biharis, and each of the urdu speaking ethnicities, have a lot of racial pride, like all South Asian sub-ethnicities, and they have their own notions of why they are the best in the whole lot. Hyderabadis, UP walay, Memons, Biharis, even discriminate against and look down upon each other, “urdu speaking” is not an umbrella ethnicity by any stretch. Biharis too, like all other South Asian sub-ethnicities, are quick to point out that they are biharis, in their heart believing they are the best and looking down upon everyone else.

Madhanee and ravage I agree with you guys about diversity being a positive thing. I too would want diversity only if there is respect for the diverse though. That kind of respect, unfortunately though, is present only in western college campuses it seems and nowhere else. It is also present in people who have grown up in ethnically diverse environments I think. I agree with you also that we need a true and committed leader for Karachi who can look beyond such racial prejudices. I think our parent’s generation can’t have such a leader because it is so ethnically polarised. Altaf Hussein, if he had played his cards right, could have been a good leader, people loved him and many still do; but he failed. We need someone from our generation, who has grown up in Karachi and is maybe a sub-ethnic mix.

Zakk hey, I didn’t mean to pick on Pathans by any means…sowwy for the lopsided example :clown: I really respect and like pathans in fact technically I am one eighth pathan myself. I just gave an example any didn’t mean to pick on pathans or anything…
I do think though that the type of coservativeness found in some pathan families is not present anywhere else? Maybe I am wrong but you don’t think? Like, I once met a pathan woman in her twenties (our cook’s wife, he was from Baltistan) and she told me that there are curtains on the walls of her house so she can’t look outside and she has only been out of her house fice or six times in her life. I am not condemning that, that’s their own way of life, but I’m just saying I never found any punjabi, sindhi or seraiki family to be that conservative. I don’t know about Balochis though, I only know very few ppl from interior Balochistan.
BTW I respect conservatiness so just to let you know I’m not picking on them or dissing them or something.
Although it would be sad though to see those pockets of pristine civilizations in remote areas of Pakistan vanish because of modernisation :frowning: I do agree with you that those people have the right to progress too and the government should invest in all areas and on all peoples of Pakistan uniformly.

Mr Xtreme, I completely agree with you.
However, you know, as I was saying, you can mentally convince yourself about one thing but in your heart its impossible to pull away from the value system you have been taught all your live and to which your entire family belongs. Its just something natural, and takes generations and time to assimilate. I myself experienced this when I went to the US. Its not easy to just embrace or accept value systems that teach the opposite of what you have learnt all your life and hold dear in your heart. You can outwardly assimilate, but those concepts and values are just ingrained in you and can never ever leave you.

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Zakk you were saying that they come to Karachi because of economic majboori.
True. Just wanted to clarify though that I didn't at all mean to say that I had some problem with people migrating into the big cities, whatever their reason. From my own family there have been people like that who migrated to Karachi from Punjab. I think Pakistan belongs to every Pakistani and each of us have a right to live wherever we want and take advantage of facilities all over the country. As a Karachiite, my feelings towards migrants to the city from other parts of the country have always been 'most welcome' -- to anyone from any part of Pakistan or the whole world.
I also feel the same way as a Pakistani towards Afghan immigrants to the country or people from other countries in fact.

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I disagree with some of the view points above. Well first of all even kids raised in same home with same family & school dont turn out to be totally same their thinking & views r diffrent… why ?? There is no way we can stop a human brain to function in a way we want, every individual is diffrent.

Then the questions whos right & whos wrong? I will have to agree with Golden here that every one is right in his/her own way. (If u put urself in thier shoes) Lets say it was u who was raised in that environment will u be any diffrent?

Irem, like u said isnt it unfair towards the girl if someone is labeling her not moral? & they should stop their thought process. Can u stop ur thought process? & not label them being uneducated & uncivilized? What they never saw, they thought was wrong, & what u never saw, thought was wrong… its the same thing, from diffrent angles.

So whats the solution? I think diversity itself is very important, (Although, sometimes it can play a very negative role) but mostly, its what helps emerge a new cultures, new societies. The only thing we all must learn is to put ourselfs in others shoes, & learn to respect each others thought process. What we dont understand, we should learn there thought process, & compare it to ours, & then with a logic, try to follow the right one.

Most ppl I have seen from multi Cultures, r even better in my view, Lets talk about Pathans (as mostly they were being discussed above) I know this pathan guy whos basically from Zob, yes from a family where ladies dont even go out. He evolved good, even better, i guess he followed the good old way of living “When u r in Rome, live like romans do”. The guy is famous for his loyalty, depository one who will never turn his back on u. Yet he have a Girl Friend whos doing her MBA & unlike many others he wouldnt discuss her being so hot or sexy in public.

What i wanted to say is, being multi cultured is even better, only if u have ability to learn about others, & courage to adopt whats good in other cultures, & drop the bads from urs.

:bravo:

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by irem: *
**ravage* - I'm surprised with your example of the bihari family that is ashamed of its ethnicity. I've known many biharis but never some across that. From what I have seen, biharis, and each of the urdu speaking ethnicities, have a lot of racial pride, like all South Asian sub-ethnicities, and they have their own notions of why they are the best in the whole lot. Hyderabadis, UP walay, Memons, Biharis, even discriminate against and look down upon each other, "urdu speaking" is not an umbrella ethnicity by any stretch. Biharis too, like all other South Asian sub-ethnicities, are quick to point out that they are biharis, in their heart believing they are the best and looking down upon everyone else.

[/QUOTE]

Well, they're not ashamed of it. They're proud of it but in private. In public they prefer to avoid all the attention you get when your ancestors were from bihar. For some reason, if Hyderabadis, UP walay, Delhi Walay, Memons agree about something, its the biharis.

[QUOTE]

Madhanee and ravage I agree with you guys about diversity being a positive thing. I too would want diversity only if there is respect for the diverse though. That kind of respect, unfortunately though, is present only in western college campuses it seems and nowhere else. It is also present in people who have grown up in ethnically diverse environments I think. I agree with you also that we need a true and committed leader for Karachi who can look beyond such racial prejudices. I think our parent's generation can't have such a leader because it is so ethnically polarised. Altaf Hussein, if he had played his cards right, could have been a good leader, people loved him and many still do; but he failed. We need someone from our generation, who has grown up in Karachi and is maybe a sub-ethnic mix.

[/QUOTE]

I agree. Our parents generation was polarised. Moreso, the leaders we will see who were youths in the 80s will be incredibly polarised too. In context of Karachi. Because they were the ones who believed in MQM, with all its valid points, and also all of its ethnic biases. Dont see any trend towards homogenisation in our political leaders in the next decade yet.

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JB you are totally right. The best are those who take the best from all cultures and then apply it to themselves to better themselves. I still think though that you can’t just ‘change’ the mentality you have grown up with so easily. You can think you have changed but in reality changes in mentalities take centuries and generations.

ravage you are totally right. I remember my older cousins telling me about all those punjabi student union versus apmso versus pakhtoon student union versus jeay sindh student group hangamay in urdu science college and KU. My cousin was telling me the girls in these groups used to put bullets in their socks to avoid them being detected in the security checking every morning and then supply them to the guys in the college :eek: and then there used to be shootings and killings on campus.
shudder
And I think Altaf bhai is the one to blame for all this.
Khayr. Thank God Karachi is out of those terrible times. May Allah keep our city safe and a comfortable home for all Pakistanis. inshallah.

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U r welcome :slight_smile:

Its not the Question of being FAIR or UNFAIR to anyone. Its the Stricking angle… Or The Angle from Where U look at it.

Forget abt a Pathan or Baluch Form some Mountains… Just think of a COMON, Educated and CULTURED Guy… Who is living in Any big and established part of the Country. He is MOD.. He is Educated … BUT.. stil… If U compare his THINKING with the THINKING of someone Who had his Broughtup in Say… FRANCE… U will find a big Diff…
Even the most wat we call CULTURED guy will not tolerate if His WIFE of SISTER GO out with someone on DATE… BUT… I know Local ppl, who are from PAKISTAN and are Pathan by Birth BUT .. as they had thier brought up in US or Europe, their thinking is just like them. They dont even bother abt such things.
Again… I would say… Ye ZARORI NAHEEN HAY KE WHEN SOMEONE IS LIVING IN WEST TOU WO UN JESA HI HOGA…
Again it depneds on hi FAMILY environment, How his Parents think and USS KI KESAY broughtup hui hay…

As JONY said…

**Being multi cultured is even better, only if u have ability to learn about others, & courage to adopt whats good in other cultures, & drop the bads from urs. **

Shart ye hay.. Ke… U are not RIGID in ur MIND… U r Mind is Open for adoption, and when ever U debate abt something U should have the COURAGE to accept ur wrongs things If U have some.

MY IDEA: Whenever U Blame someone, PUT Ur self in His/Her place, And think from other side of the MIRROR. But Majority of our EDUCATED ppl dont even know how to put Ur self in someones’s Shoe.

:wave:

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Immigrants take time to adopt to new countries and vice versa. It doesn't happen overnight. If a turban-wearing sikh took a walk in New York no one would probably raise an eyebrow. If he went to one of the smaller hicktowns from say Bush's Texas area, the locals would probably call the cops. I don't know what would happen if he turned up in France. Maybe they'd start pelting him with croissants, who knows?

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Irem: I didn't take any offense ..it depends on your perspective and mor eimportantly which pashtuns you have met, in my family all the women are educated..they dress and act conservatively but that's because of their upbringing. The cases of people who have gone for mazdoori work is different depending on their ikhlaq they would have trouble adjusting to peshawar let alone karachi. Those who's families have brought up the kids ina proper way will adjust to most circumstances without changing themselves dramatically.