Lack of freedom for Muslim of India

Re: A Muslim Indian never lives in peace

Many Indians like to give the reasons behind Partition their own spin. It was never a case of whether Muslims could or could not live with Hindus. You need to realise this. The premise of partition, as you believe, as you state, is wholly untrue.

The idea behind Partition was that Muslims could never prosper living under a Hindu majority **whilst *remaining true to their cultural, socio-political and religious truths (you need to realise that Islam is not a religion indiginous to India and several of its elementary idiosyncrasies are incompatible with Hindu India's realities); that they would never achieve their full aspirations when outnumbered by Hindus 3:1, and that a democratic set-up with a Hindu majority would deny Muslims a) an independent political voice and most importantly b) the right to freely practise their religion. This is beautifully demonstrated by Allama Iqbal (r.a.) in one of his verses:Mullah ko jo hai Hind main sajday ki ijazat,*
** Nadan ye samjhta hai kay Islam hai azaad.**
The British had, in a matter of a century, reversed a social order that had developed over the last three-quarter millenium. From being the educated, ruling elite of India, Muslims became the most backward, uneducated and resourceless peoples. It is no joke that the British vastly preferred their Hindu/Sikh subjects over their Muslims one; you need look only at such banal matters like the preference of Hindu over Urdu and Farsi as well as the development of the heretic Qadiani sect designed to internally weaken Islam.

Anyhow, the premise is one we still maintain. For Muslims to propser in India, they must visibly 'Indianify/Hinduify/Secularise' - I wonder how many Muslims would make it to the post of Indian VP if they did not completely shed Orthodox Islam. If they kept beards, prayed 5 times a day, called for Islamic brotherhood, criticised India's killings of Kashmiris, saw themselves as Muslims first and Indians second *et al. *Pakistan has discrmination too, and it has certainly not, as of yet, lived up to its full potential, but the failure of Pakistan's children to fulfill the dreams of their forefathers does not make those dreams invalid. We have had Christian Chief Justices of Pakistan, Hindu justices of the Supreme Court, Hindu players in our cricket team, Christian singers, Ahmedi politicians, not to mention half of our PMs/Presidents have been Shia'. All of this without them having to become Muslims or similar to Muslims (or in the case of Shia Muslims without them having to become Sunni Muslims or similar to Sunni Muslims). Our own Rana Bhagwandas was in India a few years ago on a personal pilgrimage. What would you do if your VP attended a Deobandi Conference organised by the Jamat-e-Islami in Nowshera?

Hell, it takes one or two statements from Shahrukh Khan about the lack of Pakistani players in the IPL and your whole country goes crazy, whereas our own Altaf Hussain has publicly called Partition a blunder, IN INDIA and is still loved by millions. What a joke.

The Shia-Sunni conflict you mention is at a level low enough to be insignificant. You need to realise something: Pakistan has the world's second largest number of Sunnis (after Indonesia) and the world's second largest number of Shia's (after Iran). If the level of communal violence was at the level you would describe, Pakistan would be on fire. Given how hetergenous our society is, Pakistanis are for the most part pluralistic and accepting of others; which is why in most localities, you will find a Shia' mosque, a Berelvi mosque, a Deobandi mosque, an Ahl-e-Hadith mosque, a Christian church... etc *without issue. So for you to say that Shia's face wide-spread discrimination is simply **not* the case. Qaid-e-Azam was a Shia, Bhutto was a Shia, Benazir is a Shia, Zardari is a Shia... People may not like them, but that was hardly because of the madhab they belonged to.

As for the need to forge an identity, you must realise that every society tries to do this; India too has attempted to promote its own nationalistic brand, both to its internal population and to the international community at large; 'Mother India,' 'World's Largest Democracy', 'Incredible India' etc etc, brands which has been very successful in fooling the world and covering the fact that your country is in instances more screwed over than Sub-Saharan Africa. But does that outward glitter conceal the fact that your NW corridor is on fire? Or that Kashmir is suddenly a major pain in your ass again?

India is simply put, in my opinion, too big to sustain itself; you are a much, much, much more hetergenous society than China. You have too many differences of opinion, too many political differences, too many communities, beliefs, languages and religions. You are as Winston Churchill said "merely a geographical expression... [and]... no more a single country than the equator." I would worry about India's own future existence than Pakistan's failures.

Re: A Muslim Indian never lives in peace

^ Very valid points! Discrimination is grossly overstated in Pakistan, I used to know a lot of Christians as they had a HUGE neighbourhood, I knew Shias, Ahmedis and NONE of them had anything to complain about.

Re: A Muslim Indian never lives in peace

while ahmedies have legitimate grievances against the state, our majority sunni state and government and nation has been very good to shias. militant groups exist and they may even have at various times institutional support (for geo-political aims) but despite being a minority by some distance shias enjoy media prominence in Muharram, round the clock police/rangers protection during majalis/juloos and significant political power. we are probably as free in Pakistan as anywhere else in the world.

Re: A Muslim Indian never lives in peace

i remember phatima and her funny repartee with you, your comments to each other always made my day. she was the cutest :-)

Re: A Muslim Indian never lives in peace

Plz add even about hunting and killing animals !!!

Oh our great fellow of this thread Mr.Salman khan love to perform Ganapati Pooja and after all this **** in him we should call him good muslim ???

Re: A Muslim Indian never lives in peace

yea what a loser cuz he’s promoting communal harmony. not a fan of him in any way. but are you saying he sucks as a muslim just cuz he performs ganesh pooja. islamically it might not be the most perfect thing to do…

yes he made some idiotic,careless remarks about a very sensitive issue, mumbai attacks, but he’s also donated to children’s charities and he even has his own charity for kids. maybe this is his way of repenting for his past sins of driving drunk and killing a poor homeless man and killing an endangered animal. he should’ve been in jail all this time.

but if he’s an ambassador for communal/religious harmony in india, i love him for that, not for his star status or his bad dancing/acting.

Re: A Muslim Indian never lives in peace

As human i really love him !! coz of his charity and social work towards humanity but when it comes to religion i shall always say he is not an good muslim !!

Re: A Muslim Indian never lives in peace

Nisha, communal harmony is great, and I think no one should be opposed to it. But do you think the pendulum can swing too far? As in, one loses the unique traits of one's own cultures/religion/heritage in trying to appease others?

It's like person A from culture A and person B from culture B; both are so paranoid about not offending each other that they both continuously end up compromising on their beliefs and practises due to 'political correctness' until neither culture A nor culture B remains.

You say you'd love Salmn if he's an ambassador for communal harmony; that's an admirable trait and we need more such ambassadors in Pakistan. But consider the case (and I know it's extreme but bear with me) that every single Muslim in India starts doing what Salman does i.e. Ganesh pooja, going to temples, forgetting their own religious obligations etc etc, until Islamic practises, and everything unique about Islamic heritage does not exist in India any longer... Doesn't India lose out because of that loss of diversity...?

Communal harmony is great; Islam tells us about leaving peacefully with others, but surely let's not forget our own heritages whilst we're at it.

Re: A Muslim Indian never lives in peace

religiously, whether he's a good or bad muslim, i think only Allah can decide that. a person(hindu or muslim)that promotes harmony between all indians is just so pure and saint in my eyes, whatever keeps all indians united. make fun of me if you want but i hold such people very close to my heart(not particularly salman khan taking his past sins into consideration)

like that article of jafar khan on the first page, such Indians give me total peace of mind. I love them so much, i hope God blesses them.

Re: A Muslim Indian never lives in peace

i'm not much of a bollywood watcher and far from a salman khan fan, haven't watched his movies much.

i know and i have nothing against islam i do love lots of things about it, i'm not a muslim today b/c of such rules in islam though even if i've spent a couple years understanding it from learned muslims.even wishing a nonmuslim on their festivals is unislamic, a sweet thing to do and that would promote a peaceful living with nonmuslim brothers but it's unislamic.

Re: A Muslim Indian never lives in peace

We know Allama Iqbal is one of Pakistani Gods, who prophesied China will be Pakistan, india will be pakistan, the whole world will become pakistan....why dont you first go and teach your gods verses to ex-pakistanis. i.e. bangladeshis.

Re: Lack of freedom for Muslim of India

[note]Title changed on the request of OP[/note]

Re: A Muslim Indian never lives in peace

Pakistanis are for the most part monotheists, and so no, Allama Iqbal isn't one of our 'Gods.' But you're right, he is held in very high esteem, not only by Pakistanis, but also by other Muslims, particularly Iranians and all Urdu speakers really (being one of the greatest Urdu poets).

The particular verse you are quoting is probably this:


Cheen-o-Arab humara, Hindustan humara
Muslim hain hum, watan hai sara jahan humara
Tauheed ki amanat seenon main hai humaray
Asaan nahin mitaana naam-o-nishaan humara***!

This isn't referring to Pakistanis; *Bang-e-Dara *was written in 1924, when the calls for a seperate state for Muslims were not significant.

Iqbal is simply stating here that a Muslim knows no nationality - Islam isn't bounded by borders; ourcreed is 'tawheed' (Oness in God) and belief in the Prophet (PBUH) and anyone subscribing to those is a Muslim. This is around about the time the Ottoman Caliphate ended (1924), so poems like this were to galvanise Muslims.

Re: A Muslim Indian never lives in peace

You did not say it but

"inn-a-mal aamal-o bin neyaat"

Re: A Muslim Indian never lives in peace

May I know on what basis you said he is not a True or Good Muslim?

Re: A Muslim Indian never lives in peace

As for his intentions (niyat), piety or faith (iman), we cannot and should not judge this; this is between him and God.

But the manifestation of that faith (i.e. his actions) we can judge; our Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said: "I have been ordered to judge the apparent."

And so you see, when Salman Khan sits in a Ganesh pooja, or whatever it is called, and visits temples, this is something that a Muslim is not permitted to do. Religious tolerance is a great thing, but Salman actively participates in pagan religious practises which is shirk. It's not an issue of 'well maybe that's your interpretation' or 'maybe some Muslims think it is *permitted' etc. That's not how Islam legislates. There's a particular process of *ijma (consensus) that needs to be followed.

Re: A Muslim Indian never lives in peace

You, sir, are a top man.

Reading through this thread you're spot on.

Re: Lack of freedom for Muslim of India

^ ^O.K But does Koran prohibit Muslims from respecting other's beliefs?

Re: Lack of freedom for Muslim of India

i asked this in the religion forum but nobody paid attention to the thread.

i just wanted all the quranic verses referring to nonmuslims/nonmuslim practices explained in detail but nobody ever helped.

Re: Lack of freedom for Muslim of India

This involves lots of understanding of an "islamic state" based on the reign of Hazoor pak s.a.w and calphiates.

When it comes to religion, Islam gives direct instructions to respect "ahl-e-kitaab" i.e. jews, christians etc. However, These are not allowed to "preach" their respective religion within the islamic state. Example : Hudebia Pact. I am not sure about other religions liks budhasim, hinduism. The instructions which are applicable to "ahl-e-kitab" is for sure applicable on them as well BUT there is a room for "ulma ijma".