Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

Also keep in mind these verses as well among thoes

chapter 4 48
48. Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed

  1. Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).

chapter 5 verse 72
72. They do blaspheme who say: "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.

and also keep in mind this verse as well because jews and christians are treated separate from believers

  1. Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.
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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

My position is very clear on the subject, however you are not explaining how you take 29:45 and 2:62. If you have not understood my position I’ll try to explain again in simple English:

  1. Allah (sws) does not like the belief on trinity and has warned jews and christains about dire consequences in the hereafter who follow this belief.

  2. Inspite of their belief in trinity, the status of jews and christains is separate from pagans. They are not Al Munkareen and Al mushrikeen. Quran has never referred them as such. Quran has always distinguished pagan with Ahlekitaab.

  3. When you refer to Ayats meant for Pagan and associate them to jews and christains, in support of your argument regarding interfaith marriages, I am merely asking you not to indulge in this kind of action just to justify the fatwa of your mullah, for which you can not find any base in Quran and Sunnah.

  4. To judge jews and christains in hereafter is not our job. This right belongs to Allah. We are however ordered in Quran to have a good relationship with them in 29:45:
    Argue with people of the book, other than evil doers, only by means of what are better! and say, we believe in what has been sent down to us and sent down to you. Our God is the same as your God, and we are surrendered to Him.

  5. Treatment mentioned in Surah Tawbah and Al Ahzaab is more complicated. You have to take it after considering Ilmu Nazool and principals of Sunnah which I’ll try to explain to you in my subsequent post.

Based on my position on the subject please clarify your position on 29:45 and 2:62. You are just asking me to read togather 9:30, 9:31, 3:110 with these ayats. May I know what you make out of them when you read them together. Are you implying Allah did not know what christains and jews believe in when he revealed 29:45 and 2:62, and later on when he found out he changed his mind by revealing 3:110. Are you aborogating 29:45 and 2:62 like a typical mullah for 3:110? Please enlighten me with your genius conclusion when you read them together.

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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

i think i am really bad to make some one other clear
let me try again, you have said “Quran has always distinguished pagan with Ahlekitaab.”
for the sake of argument i say
i agree
now lets see , does only Jews and christens are the ones when Allah talk about Ahley Kitab
if yes , then why in various ayats Allah purposely refered jews and christens rather then calling Ahley kitab always

second is there need to specify every nation that they are mushrik when Allah have told that everyone who worship other then Allah is mushrik
Allah have also told that Jews and chirsten worship their lords and Jesus
so should Allah again say that a , b ,c d, …z are mushiks
does Allah was writing the thesis

read all the ayat i have quoted above , inshallah that will help you

Allah have most of time separte jews and christen separated from Ahley kitab , in the same way you are separating pagans and Ahley kitab
Allah had used the word fasiq for most of Ahley kitab and you are saying why Allah has not used the word mushrik specifically for ahley kitab
i think you need that Allah instead of writing Quran should write a thesis to make you clear

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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

this your words reminds me of the ayat

005.073 لَقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ ثَالِثُ ثَلاثَةٍ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَهٍ إِلا إِلَهٌ وَاحِدٌ وَإِنْ لَمْ يَنْتَهُوا عَمَّا يَقُولُونَ لَيَمَسَّنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ
005.073 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah.** If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.**

Al-Qur'an, 005.073 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.910

so can you marry anyone who believe in trinity
although Allah have said that they are doing kufar

yes if she is jew or christen but dont believe in trinity or jesus is son of God ,
then there is a permission because they are then surely one of ahley kitab
the ones who believe in trinity are even not in ahley kitab

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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

Why do you insist on taking Allah's task in your hand. Allah (sws) on the judgement day will not ask YOU how to treat them. Why are you making conclusion contrary to 29:45 which defines your relationship with AhleKitaab. Again you are indulging yourself in questioning Allah (sws) wisdom of declaring them Ahlekitaab. Why don't you clearly tell the forum readers what conclusion you draw by reading these ayats together. You can continue to give me ayats pointing to mistakes of jews and christains and against their belief in trinity. Not for one moment I am denying the fact that their belief in trinity is wrong.

Please clarify what you think of 29:45 and 2:62....Are you implying Allah did not know about trinity when he revealed 29:45 and 2:62 and wrongly declared them Ahlekitaab...

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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

yes if she is jew or christen but dont believe in trinity or jesus is son of God ,
then there is a permission because they are then surely one of ahley kitab
the ones who believe in trinity are even not in ahley kitab..

Thanks for atleast admitting that previously you were attributing wrong verses to Ahlekitaab. Now you are denying normal jews and christains are ahlekitaab. Well it's your own understanding and I have nothing furthur to say on the subject...

2:256
There is no compulsion in religion

109:6
To you be your religion, and to me my religion"

If you don't want to marry jews and christains, well don't. But please refrain from issuing fatwas to other men and women who want to......

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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

Yes you are absolutely right in stating that you are bad in making things clear.....

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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

about 1
see my post number 1 in this thread
i had already told this there as well

second you are saying i am denying normal jews and christain are ahlekitab because this theory you have given that if in some place Allah separate ahley kitab from pagans so jews and christen are not musharik , keeping that theory in mind , read the quran you see in some places Allah separtely mention the jews and christen rather then calling ahley kitab
keeping your theory in mind , one can extract that normal jews and christens are not ahleykitaab

otherwise , for anyone who worship other then Allah is mushrik ( as stated by Quran ) Jews and christens worship other then Allah ( as stated by Quran ) so they are mushrik and Allah call them fasiq ( as stated in quran ) also Allah forbade us to marry mushrik so according to Quran one can't marry normal jews or christens

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2:256
There is no compulsion in religion

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no doubt about this, but it doesn't mean to deny the facts of quran and change islam completely as by denying quran and marrying normal jew or chiristen

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109:6
To you be your religion, and to me my religion"

[/quote]

thanx to Almighty Allah that i am muslim

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If you don't want to marry jews and christains, well don't. But please refrain from issuing fatwas to other men and women who want to......
[/QUOTE]

sorry , we are not issuing fatwas , rather you are issuing fatwa that one can marry jews and christains , we are only telling , what is told to muslims from Quran
so if any one deny quran and want to marry jew or christen , it is up to them

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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

yaa i know , and i am really feeling sorry , because i fail to make you clear , i have tried my best but really failed

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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

To understand Islam we have to understand principals of Sunnah and Ilmulnazool properly. Unfortunately our religion has become hostage to intolerant, illogical mullahs who have turned Islam in to Mullahism. ISLAM IS THE MOST LOGICAL RELIGION WITH MOST ILLOGICAL FOLLOWERS….

What is Ilmul nazool:
It is the context and circumstances under which the Koranic revelations took place. In order to understand a particular Surah or Ayah it is necessary to understand particular circumstances, and logic behind that particular revelation. Here our typical mullahs give simplistic explanations by abrogating the previous one with the latest one. I’ll try to prove with the principals of sunnah that this simplistic rule is not valid. Last but not least we have to see Ilmunazool in the light of principals of sunnah. After all the best way to understand Koran is to see the example of Holy prophet.

Principals of Sunnah:
Our Holy Prophet acted differently under different circumstances. However in order to understand his action we must define certain principals which he never deviated from in his life. Let’s define those principals of sunnah.
1. Actions taken for the betterment of Islam.
2. Actions taken to make his followers better human beings.
3. Actions taken in light of logic and common sense.
In light of above three principals if we study Quran it will make understanding much easier.
For example is growing beard sunnah? Not at all, because it was just fashion of the day and did not by any standard contributed to betterment of Islam, or uplifting of humanity. Even to think growing beard uplifts Islam is against common sense. On the contrary some religious beards (not all) develop certain religious arrogance and are against rule number two. In fact these beards are against sunnah. Similarly riding a camel, adopting certain way of dressing is not sunnah.
On the contrary is abolishing slavery sunnah? Yes it is, as it conforms to all the three principals of sunnah. Although it was not practiced by Holy Prophet during his life time due to circumstances prevailing at that time, but as it conforms with the principals of sunnah it is perfectly sunnah.

Now let’s try to understand the message of Allah in the light of principals of Sunnah.

Prophetic life can be divided in to three distinct phases. In the first phase In Mecca fighting was prohibited. It was necessary to show the real and humane message of Islam. If you study the revelations of that time and see them in the light of principals of sunnah, these revelations conformed with all the three principals of sunnah. There was no need for fighting as muslims were not rulers of Mecca and whole of their concentration was on propagating the message of Islam.

The second phase of prophetic life started when Medina came under the rule of Holy Prophet. Fighting was permitted at that time against injustice and oppression. It was necessary to maintain the law and order. If you study the revelations of the time you perfectly understand them in the light of sunnah.

The third phase of prophetic life started when in Medina fighting was made obligatory. This phase was started for certain specific reasons. As the prophet had a mission to establish Islam as a major religion during his life time, in order to give an alternative religion to humankind for times to come. Also if you understand the political religious situation of the seventh century, religion used to be imposed by the rulers on people. Therefore through a divine decree prophet was asked to act aggressively and establish Islam as a major religion. If you study the revelations and actions of the prophet in light of principals of sunnah you will understand perfectly. Surah Tawbah and Al Ahzaab represent this period.

Are we required to forget the rest of Quran and follow Surah Tawbah and Alahzaab, and go on a shooting spree, killing and slaying non muslims today. The answer lies in principals of Sunnah. The need of the hour is to understand the message of these surahs in the light of logic as these surahs were revealed to prepare muslims to achieve this specific mission. In modern era of media and news, if we slay people and show the video on internet, will it be for betterment of Islam. Is religion to be forced on people today where most of the governments give you freedom to follow any religion, should we act illogically when sunnah teaches us to be logical. Why in the first phase of prophetic life our Holy Prophet did not use force to establish Islam. He was following the 3rd rule of Sunnah.

Can Islam today spread with Klashinkov shariat. How many people will be attracted to the folds of Islam by showing this kind of face to the world??? When our Holy Prophet changed his strategy according to whatever was best for Islam, why we have denounced the use of logic and take the message of Islam without considering the principals of Sunnah….

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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

My friend read my previous post an Inshallah you will understand the verses you are quoting in their true prospective.

Now let's analyse what you are saying:

1) You made a statement that marriage between Muslim women and Ahlekitaab Men is not allowed. Your statement was based on fatwa of Moulana Yousuf Ludhianwi. I told you to give me source from Quran and Sunnah as a base for such fatwa.

2) You gave me certain ayats in support of your claim which were clearly revealed fo pagans in support of your argument. I pointed to this logical fallacy, and you admitted these were meant for pagans.

3) Here you changed your position and started challenging the status of jews and christains as Ahlekitaab. For me you are challenging the wisdom of Allah.

4) Please read with a very open mind what I want to show you. 29:45 was revealed much before the ayats you are quoting. When 29:45 was revealed what do you think Muslims understood from this Ayat. Didn't muslims of that time understood Allah (sws) was referring to normal jews and christains? Do you think Allah decieved muslims at that time. Was Allah referring to some Alien Ahlekitaab who did not exist on this planet, and Muslim may encounter them sometime in future when they land on this planet called earth. Keep in mind when 29:45 was revealed 9:30 and 9:31 did not exist.

5) Jews amd christains are the same Ahlekitaab who are referred in 2:62. For other ayats you are quoting please see them in the light of Ilmulnazzool and principals of sunnah. They were revealed for some specific objective in mind and try to understand these objectives through principals of sunnah.

6) I am not declaring any fatwa. I am just showing you marriage of muslim men and women with Ahlekitaab is allowed because we can not find any source in quran or sunnah which prohibits it. It may not be the best thing to do for the reasons you specified but we can not challenge Allah (sws) wisdom that why He did not prohibit it.

One more thing my friend. The guidance for us lies in quran and principals of sunnah and not what your favourite mullah says. You don't have to perform these mental acrobatics just to prove your mullah is right. You have changed your reasoning three four times during this debate starting from wrongly attributed verses. Have you analysed your behaviour with an open mind. From the start of this debate you are fixed on your idea that your mullah can not be wrong. For that you started finding arguments with your belief in mind that your mullah can not be wrong. You attributed wrong verses, tried to prove thier status as almunkareen and almushrikeen, declared jews and christains as not ahlekitaab,thus tried every kind of mental gymnastic but you are too much fixed on your belief that your mullah can not be wrong. I can tell you with this approach you are not following Islam, you are rather following mullahism....

Your mullah is as human as you are....

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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

first of all go back and read my post , i have not given fatwa of any body
i was just quoting what is in quran
and i have shown that in Quran only men are allowed to marry Ahley kitab women , clearly mentioned about men and not about women
and you are interpreting that if that is not written there it means womens are allowed to marry Ahley kitab men which is contrary to any scientific analysis method

[quote]

2) You gave me certain ayats in support of your claim which were clearly revealed fo pagans in support of your argument. I pointed to this logical fallacy, and you admitted these were meant for pagans.

[/quote]

i have also said , should Allah repeat name of every nation (people) that they are mushrik after each ayat
Although you know in various ayats in Quran Allah have said that jews and christens worship other then Allah
and who ever worship other then Allah is musrik and one is not allowed to marry any musrik

you are stuck with one ayat and left all others and demanding why Allah haven't write the thesis , that after each ayat , Allah should have write a, b, c.....z are musriks or Allah should have write ,muslim are not allowed to marry a , not allowed to marry b , not allowed to marry c ................................ not allowed to marry c
Allah have told they are not allowed to marry musriks ( who worship other then Allah ) , other then Muslims womens they are allowed to marry Ahley kitab ( to whom Allah had revealed the book) and they have believe in oneness of Allah

[quote]

3) Here you changed your position and started challenging the status of jews and christains as Ahlekitaab. For me you are challenging the wisdom of Allah.

[/quote]

not your wisdom , do you think yourself Allah
Allah have told , every nation that had been given books and acted on that are Ahley kitab and who worship other then Allah is mushrik and Allah had told that jews and christens , worship other then Allah

keeping your theory in mind (if some one are separately define , some where in quran then they are separted in general ), i have shown you that in quran in various parts Allah have separted jews and christens from Ahley kitab

[quote]

4) Please read with a very open mind what I want to show you. 29:45 was revealed much before the ayats you are quoting. When 29:45 was revealed what do you think Muslims understood from this Ayat. Didn't muslims of that time understood Allah (sws) was referring to normal jews and christains? Do you think Allah decieved muslims at that time. Was Allah referring to some Alien Ahlekitaab who did not exist on this planet, and Muslim may encounter them sometime in future when they land on this planet called earth. Keep in mind when 29:45 was revealed 9:30 and 9:31 did not exist.

[/quote]

i can just smile on your childish arguments
so you are quoting that no other nation on the earth were given books
what can i say to you now

plz let me know , why Quran some where told Jews and christen do this etc etc
and some where said Ahley kitab , although only Ahley kitab word was enough if ahley kitab means jews and christen only

[quote]

5) Jews amd christains are the same Ahlekitaab who are referred in 2:62.

[/quote]

then why Allah havn't write jews and christen , why he write Ahley kitab here, although Allah have many times told jews and christen do this and that in various ayat, why he not said that jews and christen womens are allowed for you

[quote]

For other ayats you are quoting please see them in the light of Ilmulnazzool and principals of sunnah. They were revealed for some specific objective in mind and try to understand these objectives through principals of sunnah.

[/quote]

sorry i don't agree , you are totally reject principals of sunnah here
every ayat have specific as well as general objectives
specific for the time of revelation , and for general till the qiamat
and both ways if you study these ayats you will clearly understand that normal Jews and Christens are mushrik , so muslim men are not allowed to marry normal jew or christen womens

[quote]

6) I am not declaring any fatwa. I am just showing you marriage of muslim men and women with Ahlekitaab is allowed because we can not find any source in quran or sunnah which prohibits it.

[/quote]

by this you are declaring fatwa , my brother because you are changing what have been said in Quran ,and by telling specifically that ahley kitab women means only men are allowed not women

[quote]

It may not be the best thing to do for the reasons you specified but we can not challenge Allah (sws) wisdom that why He did not prohibit it.

[/quote]

every thing in quran have the logic, if you want to learn and find it , you can find
Allah had prohibit muslim women to marry non muslim men ( according to quran by specifying only muslim men can marry ahley kitab women ) but if some one don't want to see , it is up to them

[quote]

One more thing my friend. The guidance for us lies in quran and principals of sunnah and not what your favourite mullah says.

[/quote]

my favourte mullah is Hazoor PBUH and without his guidence no one can understand true knowledge of Quran

[quote]

You don't have to perform these mental acrobatics just to prove your mullah is right.

[/quote]

same for you that please don't twist the ayat of Quran to full fill your desire of marrying any jew or christen women

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You have changed your reasoning three four times during this debate starting from wrongly attributed verses.

[/quote]

from start to end , i have said jews are christens are musrik because they worship other then Allah and one is not allowed to marry them
one can only marry with one who believe in oneness of Allah

and if you say i have wrongly quoted , plz prove me wrong that jews and christens are not musriks and they only believe in Allah and no one other
and only jews and christens are ahley kitab and no one others
and their book is the actual book send by Allah

[quote]

Have you analysed your behaviour with an open mind.

[/quote]

now you have started figting , like a small child , when no one agree his wrong wishes he start fight with every one :D

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From the start of this debate you are fixed on your idea that your mullah can not be wrong.

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Bahi meray ! go and read the fatwas of most mullahs you will find they allow marrying with jew and christens womens and you are favouring most mullahs in Pakistan with the exception that you are allowing even women to marry with jews and christens

[quote]

For that you started finding arguments with your belief in mind that your mullah can not be wrong.

[/quote]

ya true Hazoor PBUH can't be wrong but you can

[quote]

You attributed wrong verses, tried to prove thier status as almunkareen and almushrikeen, declared jews and christains as not ahlekitaab,thus tried every kind of mental gymnastic but you are too much fixed on your belief that your mullah can not be wrong. I can tell you with this approach you are not following Islam, you are rather following mullahism....

[/quote]

so the whole muslim word is not muslim and only you are muslim , thats great

you said i have attributed wrong verses prove me wrong
i have shown you that to most ahley kitab Allah had said that they are fasiq ( mushrik ) but you are stick that why he didn't use almushrikeen
why he didn't give the list that falan falan is mushrik (although Allah have told that jews and christens worship other then Allah and who ever worship other then Allah is mushrik )
and with your logic i have even shown you that jews and christens will not be ahlekitab if we for sake of argument we take your theory( if some where some are mention separate they will always be separated in general ) true and you are even not satisfied with you

what can i say
if you want to marry some jew or christen go and marry , no one will kill you
but plz don't try to twist islam for your wishes

[quote]

Your mullah is as human as you are....
[/QUOTE]

Ya Hazoor PBUH was human and last messenger (Rasool /Nabi) of Allah

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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

^before contunuing this discussion, please re-read this post…
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showpost.php?p=5218940&postcount=97

First fight
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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

was just quoting what is in quran
and i have shown that in Quran only men are allowed to marry Ahley kitab women , clearly mentioned about men and not about women
and you are interpreting that if that is not written there it means womens are allowed to marry Ahley kitab men which is contrary to any scientific analysis method
first of all go back and read my post , i have not given fatwa of any body
i

What kind of scientific analysis is that . It is actually circular reasoning. I can not find a verse in Quran which allows me the use of mobile phone. I assume it is allowed because I can not find a verse which prohibits it. Even a two year old child can think more logically in this case than your reasoning. This is the exact mental gymnastic you are performing and I mentioned earlier…

i have also said , should Allah repeat name of every nation (people) that they are mushrik after each ayat
Although you know in various ayats in Quran Allah have said that jews and christens worship other then Allah
and who ever worship other then Allah is musrik and one is not allowed to marry any musrik

you are stuck with one ayat and left all others and demanding why Allah haven't write the thesis , that after each ayat , Allah should have write a, b, c.....z are musriks or Allah should have write ,muslim are not allowed to marry a , not allowed to marry b , not allowed to marry c ................................ not allowed to marry c
Allah have told they are not allowed to marry musriks ( who worship other then Allah ) , other then Muslims womens they are allowed to marry Ahley kitab ( to whom Allah had revealed the book) and they have believe in oneness of Allah

Of course I’ll stick with each and every Ayat as that’s where I get my guidance from. I cannot ignore 29:45 as you are suggesting. Allah revealed four books for the guidance of Humankind. Torah, Bible, Zaboor, and Quran. As the followers of Hazrat Daud did not exist at that time only Ahlekitaab left were Jews and Christians. If you think Quran refers to some alien ahlekitaab who do not reside on this planet you can continue to live in your fantasy. My understanding is ahlekitaab are Jews and Christians. You are writing a thesis on Ahlekitaab, challenging Allah’s wisdom. I am just looking at the verses how they were understood by Muslims for centuries, and how it was understood by our Holy Prophet at the time of revelation.

not your wisdom , do you think yourself Allah
Allah have told , every nation that had been given books and acted on that are Ahley kitab and who worship other then Allah is mushrik and Allah had told that jews and christens , worship other then Allah

keeping your theory in mind (if some one are separately define , some where in quran then they are separted in general ), i have shown you that in quran in various parts Allah have separted jews and christens from Ahley kitab

Allah has referred to Momineen with several names in Quran as well. Does it mean Allah is referring to somebody else. If Allah call them Jews and Christians sometime and Ahlekitaab sometimes how does it prove that they are not the same.

i can just smile on your childish arguments
so you are quoting that no other nation on the earth were given books
what can i say to you now

plz let me know , why Quran some where told Jews and christen do this etc etc
and some where said Ahley kitab , although only Ahley kitab word was enough if ahley kitab means jews and christen only

I have already answered it !

my favourte mullah is Hazoor PBUH and without his guidence no one can understand true knowledge of Quran

Than show me from Quran and sunnah the evidence in support of your argument. Don’t tell me the Prophet comes in your dreams to tell you what you are saying. Show me the ayats which prohibit marriages with Christains and Jews or Ahlekitaab (as you say they are separate). Show me the refrences…

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jab mei choti thi
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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

the most stupid argument on internet i have seen for the last 7 or 8 years
grow up man
if you have learned anything in your life , you wouldn't have given this argument
this shows how much unmature you are.

using mobile fone , is neither islamic or nor anti islamic , using them neither make you good muslim nor not using
giving this argument means you have absolutely no logic just know what the street boy says to you and you have accepted that

and about marragies

if you have learned even mathematics of 3rd class in schools you can know
that
if a+b=c ( men + women =human)
and calling "a" can marry xyz
means only "a" can marry not "b"

otherwise it has been called "c" can marry xyz
writing only "a" means b are prohibited

plz go to school if you havn't seen the school
your logic is far lower then even 3rd class school boy

[quote]

Of course I’ll stick with each and every Ayat as that’s where I get my guidance from. I cannot ignore 29:45 as you are suggesting. Allah revealed four books for the guidance of Humankind. Torah, Bible, Zaboor, and Quran. As the followers of Hazrat Daud did not exist at that time only Ahlekitaab left were Jews and Christians. If you think Quran refers to some alien ahlekitaab who do not reside on this planet you can continue to live in your fantasy. My understanding is ahlekitaab are Jews and Christians. You are writing a thesis on Ahlekitaab, challenging Allah’s wisdom. I am just looking at the verses how they were understood by Muslims for centuries, and how it was understood by our Holy Prophet at the time of revelation.

[/quote]

me not challeging Allahs's wisdom but yours

[quote]

Allah has referred to Momineen with several names in Quran as well. Does it mean Allah is referring to somebody else. If Allah call them Jews and Christians sometime and Ahlekitaab sometimes how does it prove that they are not the same.

[/quote]

thanx to Almight Allah this come to your mind some how
now tell me , some place Allah have writen pagans and Ahley kitab separately and some time just use the word almushrikeen , does that make them different
Although both worship other then Allah

[quote]

Than show me from Quran and sunnah the evidence in support of your argument. Don’t tell me the Prophet comes in your dreams to tell you what you are saying. Show me the ayats which prohibit marriages with Christains and Jews or Ahlekitaab (as you say they are separate). Show me the refrences…
[/QUOTE]

Quran
005.005

005.005 الْيَوْمَ أُحِلَّ لَكُمُ الطَّيِّبَاتُ وَطَعَامُ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ حِلٌّ لَكُمْ وَطَعَامُكُمْ حِلٌّ لَهُمْ وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ مِنْ قَبْلِكُمْ إِذَا آتَيْتُمُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ مُحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحِينَ وَلا مُتَّخِذِي أَخْدَانٍ وَمَنْ يَكْفُرْ بِالإيمَانِ فَقَدْ حَبِطَ عَمَلُهُ وَهُوَ فِي الآخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ

Al-Qur'an, 005.005 (Al-Maeda [The Table, The Table Spread])

002.221

002.221 وَلا تَنْكِحُوا الْمُشْرِكَاتِ حَتَّى يُؤْمِنَّ وَلأمَةٌ مُؤْمِنَةٌ خَيْرٌ مِنْ مُشْرِكَةٍ وَلَوْ أَعْجَبَتْكُمْ وَلا تُنْكِحُوا الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَتَّى يُؤْمِنُوا وَلَعَبْدٌ مُؤْمِنٌ خَيْرٌ مِنْ مُشْرِكٍ وَلَوْ أَعْجَبَكُمْ أُولَئِكَ يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ وَاللَّهُ يَدْعُو إِلَى الْجَنَّةِ وَالْمَغْفِرَةِ بِإِذْنِهِ وَيُبَيِّنُ آيَاتِهِ لِلنَّاسِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَذَكَّرُونَ

Al-Qur'an, 002.221 (Al-Baqara [The Cow])

009.031

009.031 اتَّخَذُوا أَحْبَارَهُمْ وَرُهْبَانَهُمْ أَرْبَابًا مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ وَالْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَمَا أُمِرُوا إِلا لِيَعْبُدُوا إِلَهًا وَاحِدًا لا إِلَهَ إِلا هُوَ سُبْحَانَهُ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ

Al-Qur'an, 009.031 (At-Tawba [Repentance, Dispensation])

003.110

003.110 كُنْتُمْ خَيْرَ أُمَّةٍ أُخْرِجَتْ لِلنَّاسِ تَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَتَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنْكَرِ وَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَلَوْ آمَنَ أَهْلُ الْكِتَابِ لَكَانَ خَيْرًا لَهُمْ مِنْهُمُ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَأَكْثَرُهُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ

Al-Qur'an, 003.110 (Aal-E-Imran [The Family of Imran])

bahi meray , my advice to you , also try to learn some little bit arabic as well
only seeing the translation by some one can't make you understand properly as well
see in 9:31 word Tishrikoon
see in 3:110 word fasiqoon ( wa aksara hum ul fasiqoon ) aksariat fasiq (mushrik ) hay

if some translatator translate mushrikeen as idolators you are so stuck that you differentiate them with the jews and christens although Allah also telling them mushrik , they do shirk ( 9:31,3:110) but some are momin as well ( 3:110)

Have you ever appeared on tv?
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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

You are not adding anything new to your argument and repeating the same stuff over and over again. I have made my point and you have made yours. It seems we are in total disagreement on this issue.

YOU MAY NOT AGREE WITH ME TILL THE END OF MY LIFE, BUT I'LL DEFEND YOUR RIGHT TO DISAGREE WITH ME WITH MY LIFE......

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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

yes untill you come up with some proper arguments
like 3 or 4 years back , i believed in sufisam but as the arguments came infront of me logically , then i realize that its true that i am on wrong side so i change that

for example you say that only jews and christens are ahley kitab
you surely deny the verse of quran

013.038 وَلَقَدْ أَرْسَلْنَا رُسُلا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ وَجَعَلْنَا لَهُمْ أَزْوَاجًا وَذُرِّيَّةً وَمَا كَانَ لِرَسُولٍ أَنْ يَأْتِيَ بِآيَةٍ إِلا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ لِكُلِّ أَجَلٍ كِتَابٌ
013.038 We did send messengers before thee, and appointed for them wives and children: and it was never the part of a messenger to bring a sign except as Allah permitted (or commanded).** For each period is a Book (revealed).**

Al-Qur'an, 013.038 (Ar-Rad [The Thunder])

now let see if you read the books of "hindus" for example vedas and Geeta etc
thoes book also forbade to worship idols, clear discription of Muhammad PBUH in that and word "Allah" present in that as it is in Bible of today

By name, only four revelations of God are mentioned in the Qur’an i.e. Torah, Zaboor, Injeel and the Qur’an
Torah is the revelation, which was given to Moses (pbuh)
Zaboor is the revelation, which was given to David (pbuh)
Injeel is the revelation, which was given to Jesus (pbuh) and
Qur’an is the last and final revelation which was given to the last and final Messenger Muhammad (pbuh).

but we know that atleast Torah and Injeel has been changed into bible but we don't know vedas or geeta are book of God or not as they are even mention nor we know which book changed to veda or geeta etc

but if you read them vedas etc you feel on some part that few verses are not humanily made and they show clear sign of toheed
Although we don't say that for sure they are books from Allah but can be

for example
Bhagwad Geeta 7:20
The most popular amongst all the Hindu scriptures is the Bhagwad Geeta. Bhagwad Geeta mentions in Chapter 7, Verse 20, “Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires worship demigods” that is “Those who are materialistic, they worship demigods” i.e. besides the true God.

  1. Upanishad Upanishad are also one of the sacred scriptures of the Hindus. a) (i) Chandogya Upanishad, Chapter 6, Section 2, Verse 1 It is mentioned in the Chandogya Upanishad, Prapathaka(Chapter) 6, Khanda(Section)2, Shloka(Verse) “Ekam evaditiyam”, “He is one only without a second”. ** The principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan, page 447 and 448(sacred books of the east Volume 1 the Upanishads, part I, page 93) a) (ii) Similar to what is mentioned in the Holy Qur’an in Surah Ikhlas, Chapter 112, Verse 1, “Say he is Allah one and only”. b) (i) Svetasvatara Upanishad, Chapter 6, Verse 9 It is mentioned in the Svetasvatara Upanishad, Adhyaya(Chapter) 6, Shloka(Verse) 9, “Na casya kascij janita na cadhipah” “Of him there is neither parents nor lord*”. “na tasya kascit patir asti loke, na cesita naiva ca tasya lingam, na karanam karanadhipadhipo na casya kascij janita na cadhipah”. “Of him there is no master in the world, no ruler, nor is there any mark of him. He is the cause, the lord of the lords of the sense organs; of him there is neither progenitor nor lord”. (The principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan page 745 and in sacred books of the east Volume 15, the Upanishads, part II, page 263) b) (ii) Similar message is given in Holy Qur’an in Surah Ikhlas, Chapter 112, Verse 3, “He begets not, nor is he begotten”. c) (i) In Svetasvatara Upanishad, Chapter 4, Verse 19 It is mentioned in Svetasvatara Upanishad, Adhyaya(Chapter) 4, Shloka(Verse) 19, “Na tasya pratima asti” “There is no likeness of him”. “nainam urdhvam na tiryancam na madhye na parijagrabhat na tasya pratima asti yasya nama mahad yasah” “There is no likeness of him whose name is great glory”. (The principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan page 736 & 737 and in sacred books of the east Volume 15, the Upanishad, part II, page 253) c) (ii) Similar message is given in the Holy Qur’an in Surah Ikhlas, Chapter 112, Verse 4, “And there is none like unto him”. c) (iii) Surah Shura, Chapter 42, Verse 11 and also in Surah Shura, Chapter 42, Verse 11, “There is nothing whatever like unto him”. d) (i) In Svetasvatara Upanishad, Chapter 4, Verse 20 It is mentioned in Svetasvatara Upanishad, Adhyaya(Chapter) 4, Shloka(Verse) 20, “na samdrse tishati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam” “his form cannot be seen, no one sees him with the eye” “nasamdrse tishati rupam asya, na caksusa pasyati kas canainam. Hrda hrdistham manasa ya enam, evam vidur amrtas te bhavanti” “His form is not to be seen; no one sees him with the eye. Those who through heart and mind know him as abiding in the heart become immortal”. (The principal Upanishad by S. Radhakrishnan page 737 & in sacred books of the east Volume 15, the Upanishad part II, page 253) e) (ii) Similar message is given in the Holy Qur’an in Surah Anam, Chapter 6, Verse 103, “No vision can grasp him. But his grasp is over all vision: he is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things*”.

these verses show true sign of toheed as in Quran but as these books are not mentioned in quran so we say , may be or may not be these book are from Allah but according to 13:38 we know Allah had revealed books in each period before Quran so Jew and christens are not only Ahley kitab others can be

so kindly try to learn things with logic, i know you are in favour of logic that is very good thing, but plz don't take logic without logic

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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

Do not take for granted that I see your arguments as logical ones like so arrogantly you have started to claim as if you have have won something. For me you remain a person who misunderstood Quran on this subject. I just don't want to debate this subject any furthur with you as both of us are not adding anything new on the subject. You have stated what you had to say and I have spoken whatever I had in mind on the subject. It seems you will not change your position and I will definately not change my position based on your silly arguments.

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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

bahi i have shown you that others can be also ahley kitab
because Allah had said that in each period book is revealed

second there are many similarities in Quran and vedaas and geeta as there are similarities in Quran and bible
rest is up to you

chann say jo koi sapna jag soona soona laagay
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Re: Khuda ke Liye- the hottest anti-Islamic movie in Pakistan

For your kind information Torah is not changed in Bible, or new testament or old testament...

Testaments are different versions of Bible narrated by different people.

Another one of your mental gymnastic trying to prove Veeda as the book of God...

You may declare Hindus as Ahlekitaab if you wish to do that as I know you are writing a thesis on Ahlekitaab. Who can stop you. You refuse to take the Quranic meaning of Ahlekitaab as understood by Muslims and our holy prophet at the time of revealations....