Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

i am making a very simple case....i am muslim too and spent many years in pakistan, libya saudi arabia, UAE and egypt....i have never heard of these terms Khawarij, takfirirs, kharijis among muslim masses except in an academic debate... only recently i have staretd to hear this crap in pakistan....not sure what are we trying to achieve....

and I am saying that these terrorists guys are bad NOT because they are freakin takfeeries, bakwas-na-kar-iees, jhak-na-mar-iees, kharjies, khawarjis, drugg-iees, mar-wee-ja-iess, warjiess, marassies ......or whatever you want to call them...

they are bad and monster because they kill innocent people.....
the are bad because they don’t believe in our constitution....
they are bad because they want to implement some stupid sharia laws and want to take us to caves
they are bad cuz they are against a civilized society, women rights and what not.....

that is what every civilized person shd focus on...no need to make it a complicated religous fitna issue.

simple as that...i certainly dont care what is the right spelling of kharji, takfiri..they can all go to hell as far i am concerned...including zaid hamid!

if we go with zaid's approach, we are dividing our society more..you bring 3 quranic verses against these so called karjis, they will bring 5 in their favor and 10 hadees against you....and our illiterate massees will be so confused .... hence more hatred and more division....that is all

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

@Sa1eem

You wrote:

Terrorist path … what terrorist path? … Terrorists could be those who terrorises Muslims and could also be those who terrorises non-Muslims. Terrorist could be freedom fighters or life protectors for some … and at the same time could be killers, terrorisers, and criminals for others, so you cannot say that one is a sinner or deserve to get persecuted or killed just because they are considered ‘terrorist’ by someone (be that someone, us or them).

.

**OK.....i asked a very simple question:

"what if tomorrow certain shia groups take similar terrorist path? u guys see what i am trying to say... are you going to call them takfiris too? fact remains that we will fight them too coz they will be bad people..PERIOD**

and look what your response is"

"Terrorist path … what terrorist path? …* Terrorists could be those who terrorises Muslims and could also be those who terrorises non-Muslims. **Terrorist could be freedom fighters or life protectors for some …"*

i know very well where are you going with this thought process....please dont go towards apology path! please.....

[Sa1eem]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

^^^ Referring to both your above posts: Did you read my post or just commenting after reading one or two paragraphs?

Have you ever seen in any country you lived where a group of people are killing innocent Muslims just because they are Shias or Sunnis after calling one Kafir (to Shias) and other Biddati (to Sunnis)?

If you have not, then how can you say what you wrote above? Obviously, you do not know what Khwarjees are.

As for your question about terrorism ... I told you what terrorism is ... but as far as Khwarjism ... I clearly mentioned that ... regardless of who they may be, Shia or Sunni, they would be Khwarjees if they would do takfeer and then use that as excuse to kill.

See what you wrote:

[quote]

**OK.....i asked a very simple question:

"what if tomorrow certain shia groups take similar terrorist path? u guys see what i am trying to say... are you going to call them takfiris too? fact remains that we will fight them too coz they will be bad people..PERIOD

and look what your response is"

"Terrorist path … what terrorist path? …* Terrorists could be those who terrorises Muslims and could also be those who terrorises non-Muslims. **Terrorist could be freedom fighters or life protectors for some …"***

[/quote]

You quoted first paragraph where I talked about terrorism and then started judging my reply, even though I clearly replied your question in paragraph just after the one you quoted ... and highlighted the answer red too, so that you cannot miss the answer:

[quote]
If a group of Shias (or Berelvies) would do the same, that is, start doing takfeer and then making takfeer as their justification to start harming, terrorising and killing Muslims (of any sect) then they would be Khwarjees too.
[/quote]

Still, you ignored one part (on Khwarjism) and quoted another (on terrorism), just to give impression that I avoided your question. I do not know why was that? what can I say? intentionally misguiding or not reading the answer and still commenting ignorantly?

Do you know?
Situation in Pakistan is such that people avoid Berelvi Mosques because their is chance of an attack by Khwarjees?

Now, If you are ignorant of Pakistan (and even UK) than I am sure you would say that all Mosques are same and that there is no such thing as Barelvi Mosque and Deobandi Mosque. But then, there is.

I go to both Mosques (because I do not care and consider both sect Muslim), though I mostly go to Deobandi Mosques as in UK we have mostly Deobandi mosques and both mosque near my house is Deobandi mosque, but then, there are many Muslims who are Sunni Barelvi would never do their Salaat behind Deobandi Imam and thus would never go to Deobandi mosque ... and that is same with Deobandi Muslims, that many Deobandi would never like to do their Salaat behind Barelvi Imam and thus would not go to Berelvi Mosque. Actually, there are many Barelvi who would not even do their Salaat behind Imam-Kaba as they consider him Wahabi behind whom Salaat is invalid (according to their belief).

Now, you have lived in many Muslim countries, so have you seen such polarization what I mentioned above ... and if not, then certainly you would not know much.

[Raj_ind]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

@Monk

did you ever hear him??

I heard lot about him, few months ago, all of a sudden. Then I saw every one was inviting him on talk shows.
Strange as it sound but in pakistan we don’t let extremist in talk show/tv or on media in general.

So I clicked on one or two of his talk shows. The guy’s only fault is he has beard.
other wise you could not find a shred of extremism in his discussions.

Unlike Modi.

You know if you think about it Pakistan is the only country where extremist are on a run

did you ever hear him??

Few times, yes.

I heard lot about him, few months ago, all of a sudden. Then I saw every one was inviting him on talk shows.
Strange as it sound but in pakistan we don’t let extremist in talk show/tv or on media in general.

So I clicked on one or two of his talk shows. The guy’s only fault is he has beard.
other wise you could not find a shred of extremism in his discussions.

Unlike Modi.

You know if you think about it Pakistan is the only country where extremist are on a run

Unlike Modi???

Have U heard Modi? Have U ever heard about his SADBHAVNA MISSION? Pl try to hear modi of today, who day dreams of becoming PM of world’s largest democracy. U will find in him a lover of humanity who is dying to help out his muslim brothers and sisters and make their lives prosperous.

But we (Read who are heart-broken by his actions) are biased to the hell against this man, and InshAllah will remain so. Even if he really transforms himself into a lover of humanity from a hate monger that he was (and still is for us). He wont be ever eligible to become our leader. At the most his aukaat can increase and we can find him worth replying his Namaste. But thats too after rigorous transformation.

Hafiz dude is for us, cut from the same cloth as modi. He is khalazad bhai of Modi for us. U are more than welcome to tell us that this guy (hafiz) is so cute and full of love, unlike or just like Modi.

And thanks a lot for hitting on my ignorance that unlike the rest of the world, extremist in Pakistan are on the run. Believe me its really AMAZING to hear.

[Raj_ind]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

@phoenixdesi

zaid hamid is known for his jingoism -based patriotism and ultimate hatred towards india, read hinsus.....his only goal in life is" Pakistan and India finally go to a war, it will be a nuclear war, somehow Pakistan army prevails, and then conquers india and then...."... blah blah

Yeah heard a lot about his Gazwa E Hind.

[Raj_ind]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

@diwana

He is still being bashed for saying something good as per his critics.

What a joke!

Yeah poor dude is being bashed for saying something good. What a joke? isnt it?

Actually all are not as just and generous like U are mohtaram diwana saheb.

Not everyone can love modis and hafiz and zaid hamids because this ugly world belongs to haters.

Its only greats like urself who have been left to do this thankless job for the humanity. keep it up. ALLAH is watching, or not?????

[Raj_ind]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

@Sa1eem

Brother, to be fair, I myself do not agree with many things Zaid Hamid propagates. I believe that he exaggerates a lot and sometime talks illogically. But then, one have to be fair to whatever he writes or says, and just because one do not agree with many things he says, one cannot ignore when he says something true and sensible...................................

Saleem saheb, those who keep preaching hatred dont deserve to be heard seriously when they preach about Islam. It hardly matters if Hafiz or Hamid speaks sensibly now and than. We all know that they are capable of doing anything for image makeover or for any other cause. The million dollar question should be, do we really need a hafiz or hamid to teach us about Islam? That too when we know their agenda very well.

Its my humble opinion only. Rest of whatever U have written is something no sensible person can differ with.

[Southie]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

I did read the entire post. There were multiple references on Hindus. One sentence implies waging a war on Hindus is Prof of being a good Muslim.

An Indian Muslim in this thread is consistent. He mocks Modi (as we all should). And he mocks Hamid. Here is a gem from Mr. Hamid

" They would call Muslim leaders as Kafirs, Muslim state as Kafir but would never wage a war against Jews, Zionists and Hindus."

A classic line to rile up the masses.

[picoico]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

[quote="phoenixdesi"]

"deobandis are kharijis based on XYZ religious fatwas ...kharjis are bad people and are not real muslims, so lets destroy them ... but* rest of us belong to a good sect of islam** and once we get rid of takkfeeris/kharjis, we can have an islamic state with an islamic idenitity based on a sect that ziad likes or belongs to"*

Maybe. He's a bit of a drama queen. But, the real point is, you have this group of holier than thou folks who think everyone else is wrong to the extent that events and revelation from early Islamic history that pertained to hostile non-Muslims who were out for Muslim blood are applied to benign Muslim sects, who merelyt disagree. It's exactly this mentality that is the problem, and frankly your bleebing on about secularism sounds somewhat similar, except from the standpoint that ALL religious people who simply don't want to seperate religion from politics are "takfiri" to the secular school of thought.

I'll ignore the flippant, if not cliched, equivalence drawn between the Islamic experience with religio-political interactions and the Christian one. Apples and oranges. Our dark ages arrived with secularism, and the dismantelling of the Ottoman empire. I do sincirely hold the view that this was mostly self inflicted. But the secular period which followed was a disaster.

[queer]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

lal topi hamid saying such things is the equivalent of a cobra complaining about snakes.

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

@picoico

Maybe. He's a bit of a drama queen. But, the real point is, you have this group of holier than thou folks who think everyone else is wrong to the extent that events and revelation from early Islamic history that pertained to hostile non-Muslims who were out for Muslim blood are applied to benign Muslim sects, who merelyt disagree. It's exactly this mentality that is the problem, and frankly your bleebing on about secularism sounds somewhat similar, except from the standpoint that ALL religious people who simply don't want to seperate religion from politics are "takfiri" to the secular school of thought.

I'll ignore the flippant, if not cliched, equivalence drawn between the Islamic experience with religio-political interactions and the Christian one. Apples and oranges. Our dark ages arrived with secularism, and the dismantelling of the Ottoman empire. I do sincirely hold the view that this was mostly self inflicted. But the secular period which followed was a disaster.

what "dark ages in the muslim world due to secularism" are you referring to? u mentioned dismantling of ottoman...are you referring to* Mustafa Ataturk* period?

ifso, who said he was secular? he was opposite of it... secularism means that state has nothing to do with religion but masses and minorites have full right to practice religion in their private lives..and state protect them but ataturk did not do that

yes he took some right steps by abolishing the caliphate system, modernizing of the constitution, including enacting the new constitution of 1924, thorough secularization and modernization of the administration, with particular focus on the education system, and the adaptation of European laws and jurisprudence to the needs of the new republic, changing the alphabet, and relegating Islam to the private sphere.....

so yes he marginalized Islam at the state level but substituted it with brutality which did not even allow people to follow islam in private sphere..Ataturk institutionalized his hate of Islam and executed, tortured and imprisoned Muslims for wearing beards and fezes, praying, or for simply practicing their faith. As Turkey's first dictator he committed widespread human rights violations against his own people and by implementing the large-scale massacre and ethnic cleansing of millions of Turkey's Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians and other Christian minorities.

so this was not secularism...not sure what are you referring to?

and no need to hate me so much....your hate is obvious from your post...and not sure why u think i belong to holier than thou category? i have my own opinion and i am allowed to express it

[Southie]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

The reference to secularism as the cause of problems is an indication of how misguided some folks are. And similar thoughts percolate all the way to the top here. If you challenge such thoughts, you get labelled an irrational person with an agenda.

The problem does rest with so called "moderates", some of whom actually buy into the notion that secularism means anti religious. You bring up the inaccuracy of such an assertion, and the joke is on you.

Starts and begins with leadership. Sometimes there are no two sides to a issue. Just one logical side - the side that is fair to all.

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

@Sa1eem

^^ Situation in Pakistan is such that people avoid Berelvi Mosques because their is chance of an attack by Khwarjees?

Now, If you are ignorant of Pakistan (and even UK) than I am sure you would say that all Mosques are same and that there is no such thing as Barelvi Mosque and Deobandi Mosque. But then, there is.

I go to both Mosques (because I do not care and consider both sect Muslim), though I mostly go to Deobandi Mosques as in UK we have mostly Deobandi mosques and both mosque near my house is Deobandi mosque, but then, there are many Muslims who are Sunni Barelvi would never do their Salaat behind Deobandi Imam and thus would never go to Deobandi mosque ... and that is same with Deobandi Muslims, that many Deobandi would never like to do their Salaat behind Barelvi Imam and thus would not go to Berelvi Mosque. Actually, there are many Barelvi who would not even do their Salaat behind Imam-Kaba as they consider him Wahabi behind whom Salaat is invalid (according to their belief).

Now, you have lived in many Muslim countries, so have you seen such polarization what I mentioned above ... and if not, then certainly you would not know much.

Of course i am very well aware of level of sectarianism in Pakistan....that is precisely why i am supporting a secular pakistan at the state level.

plus not sure why are you telling me all this? it is weakening your viewpoint ... not strengthening it. here is why:

i am saying that zaid hamid's approach will divide our society more....i categorically showed in my last post that the crucial point that zaid is trying to make is that TTP (pakistan) are kharjis and that all kharjis in Pakistan are deobanids....he then says politically correct stuff but bottom line is that he is associating TTP/kharjis to a certain sect and it will certainly bother that sect...hence a strong probability of more sectarian divide and more hatred....plus you bring 3 quranic verses against these so called karjis, they will bring 5 in their favor and 10 hadees against you....and our illiterate massees will be more confused .... hence more hatred and more division....

so if you believe that level of sectarianism is all time high in pakistan, you shd support me not zaid!

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

plus saleem, you did not tell me what is wrong with my simplified approach.....all I am saying that these terrorists guys are not bad just because they are takfeeries, kharjies, khawarjis ......or whatever you want to call them...

they are bad and monster because they kill innocent people.....
the are bad because they don’t believe in our constitution....
they are bad because they want to implement some stupid sharia laws and want to take us to caves
they are bad cuz they are against a civilized society, women rights and what not.....

that is what every civilized person shd focus on...no need to make it a complicated religous fitna issue...cuz our society is already laden with sectarianism and religious fatwas and terminologies...

why cant we denounce something based on a civil code..why bring religion into everything and confuse poor masses? you think 80% of poor masses in villages even understand the concept of kharjis, klharwijis and takfeers? huh

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

@Southie

The reference to secularism as the cause of problems is an indication of how misguided some folks are. And similar thoughts percolate all the way to the top here. If you challenge such thoughts, you get labelled an irrational person with an agenda.

The problem does rest with so called “moderates”, some of whom actually buy into the notion that secularism means anti religious. You bring up the inaccuracy of such an assertion, and the joke is on you.

Starts and begins with leadership. Sometimes there are no two sides to a issue. Just one logical side - the side that is fair to all.

one whole generation in pakistan (born after 1970) has been raised on a so called romantic notion who somehow thinks that islam has solution to every problem including state level issues encompassing economic, financial, social, judicial, bureaucratic, electoral and whatnot … issues that effect minorities as well!

right from beginning this pakistani generation has been taught in schools and in media every day that Islam has solution to everything…that Islam and state cannot be separated…and if you try to do that you will end with “kufar”…

on tv, in press, in books, in syllabus, everywhere you will read this verse of iqbal who is worshiped in pakistan as an idelogical godfather:
Juda ho Deen Syasat say to reh jate hay Changayze !](http://www.paklinks.com/gs/pakistan-affairs/217633-juda-ho-deen-syasat-say-to-reh-jate-hay-changayze.html)

which means that Islam and politics cannot be separated…and if you try to do that you will end with “kufar” and burtalism

so you can understand the mental make up of this pakistani generation which is in 20s, 30s and 40s… just a mere mentioning of “secularism at state level” irk them so much as they consider it equivalent to atheism …very disappointing situation…

and ironically these same people want and appreciate secularism in western states as it allows them to build mosques using state money so that can pray freely…height of hypocrisy!

[diwana]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

^ Who told you that?

In west, masjids are not built from state money. They are built from donations.

[Southie]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

@ Phoenix your last para captures the hypocrisy nicely.

Ditto the BJP/RSS followers. They are liberals in the west and conservatives at home.

IMO if one is conservative both in ones home country and abroad, one is consistent. Ditto if one is liberal everywhere.

But if a person is conservative when he is in majority and liberal where he is minority, that is a hypocrite. Plenty of such folks here. You bring up this topic. And they let loose on you. You ask them the definition of secular ot moderate. And they make it your problem.

Ignorance and narrow mindedness is bliss.

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

@diwana

^ Who told you that?

In west, masjids are not built from state money. They are built from donations.

you have to comment on every issue.....well it is an open forum...so why not

almost every major western secular democracy has funds, grants for minorities, religious, disadvantageous groups...so yes they dont give money saying it is for building mosques , temples, or synagogues.. but religious groups get some help from state indirectly ... plus they get full protection of state agencies, which is tax payer money..plus religious donations are tax deductibles as another poster pointed out...

but that is not the main point....main point is: are you saying that western secular governments dont allow Muslims to pray freely and not protect them? Yes or NO....

[picoico]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

@phoenixdesi

what "dark ages in the muslim world due to secularism" are you referring to? u mentioned dismantling of ottoman...are you referring to* Mustafa Ataturk* period?

ifso, who said he was secular? he was opposite of it... secularism means that state has nothing to do with religion but masses and minorites have full right to practice religion in their private lives..and state protect them but ataturk did not do that

Round truth...whole lies, or something like that. I can't remember the cliche. Regardless, I'm afraid Kemalism is quite a valid form of secularism, much akin to France's *laïcité. *Anyway, I don't really need a lecture on Attaturk or Kemalism.

The point is, we had socialists, leftists, autocrats, etc. The death of the ottoman empire marked the end of an era, and the beginning of the age of nation states led by corrupt and inept secularites. The point is, there is *a history with secularism in the Islmaic world, and it's not roses. So I think in fairness, if one is an exponent of secularism in Muslim lands...I think it's fair to ask: who's form of secularism? Your plea that kemalism is *not a form of secularism smacks of muslims claiming that such-and-such regime is not Islamic.

What does secularism bring to the table? Another faction. More polarization. An unnatural political paradigm for Muslims.

Hate you? Can the drama...re-read the post, and you'll see the "holier than thou" comment was my interpretation of Hamid's take on what he calls takfiris.

[Spock]

Re: Khawarijees: The biggest threat to Pakistan and Islam

Saleem Bhai, good post but do keep in mind Z.H. puts Uncle Mush and MQM in the same bucket too... I can show you some of his other editorials where he blamed the two for the formation and support of these miscreants.