Khalifa Umar(ra) -- Split from Praying under influence

Society Religion & Philosophy
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I heard that too although at one time he was a big enemy of the Prophet composing satrical verses against him

Meal of the week 10th - 16th March - Winner announcement
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[MY QUOTE]"You said according to Shia only 3 sahaba remained Muslim after the prophet?! where on earth (internet?) are you getting this information from?"

Where exactly did i 'accuse' u of simple quoting from the internet? So absurd was your comment that I broadened the horizons to the degree that the whole world was included. I only added Internet because it could be argued that its not earth-bound.

And yes, i do copy/paste from the websites. It saves me a lot of time and effort and sometimes i have even saved the time to Copy and Paste and have simply given the links. If you think any of the references are fake or wrong then please put your claim forward rather than whining.

re question asked by the other brother. I try to use the books Saha Sitta for references as much as possible. But the problem is that Saha Sitta sometimes decide to stay quiet in order to save faces if u know what i mean. Sometimes Muhammad Ismael Bukhari misses to include important events (e.g. daawat e Zul Asheera) and sometimes the narrators 'forgets' what the most important part of Hadees was (e.g. Hadees e Saqlain).

And no, i do no believe in Saha Sitta to be very important book and neither did the 4 sunni mazhab leaders Imam Hanafi, Imam Hanbal, Imam Maliki, Imam Shaafi as none of these fiqihs ever used Bukhari to derive the sunni fiqh/mazhabs (all of them with the exception of Imam Hanbal died before the time of Muhammad Ismael Bukhari)

Ahmed Ibne Hanble did enjoy his company and shared 31 years together but did not quote a single hadees (not even as a reference) from Bukhari. However at one stage Bukhari did show his work to Imam Hanble to which the Imam Hanble said to him “u need to polish it more and work harder".

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That’s true he did compose satrical verses against the Prophet (saw) Once he realised that his childhood friend had overcome all his adversaries so must the Prophet of Allah headed to meet the Prophet (saw) who was on his way to conquer Makkah. He took his young son along with him to soften Prophet (saw)'s feelings towards him.

For three days he lost no opportunity to keep himself along with his young son within Prophet (saw)'s eyesight. After 3 days of purposefully ignoring him the Blessed Prophet (saw) relented saying: "Ya Abu Sufyan, what kept you away for so long? Ya Abu Sufyan, why so much delay? Ya Abu Sufyan, what kept yoy away from the truth? (sorry no reference - but I remember it well having once read it)

Yes, he is Prophet cousin and his full name is Abu Sufyan b. Harith b. 'Abd al-Muttalib

Sahih Muslim, KITAB AL-JIHAD WA’L-SIYAR see hadith Number 4385

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Re: In defence of Hz Umar (ra) (In response to Pagluu’s Post)

^ brother i was not disputing your claim at all, infact i think this incident will be a very good addition to the sahaba thread started by "submission to peace"

I am in the mood for.........................................
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[quote]

I try to use the books Saha Sitta for references as much as possible. But the problem is that Saha Sitta sometimes decide to stay quiet in order to save faces if u know what i mean. Sometimes Muhammad Ismael Bukhari misses to include important events (e.g. daawat e Zul Asheera) and sometimes the narrators 'forgets' what the most important part of Hadees was (e.g. Hadees e Saqlain).

[/quote]

islamic studies cannot be limited to a few books thats why no single book is complete

and like i said earlier i dont think all hadith is reliable and all history unreliable both are interconnected

[quote]

And no, i do no believe in Saha Sitta to be very important book and neither did the 4 sunni mazhab leaders Imam Hanafi, Imam Hanbal, Imam Maliki, Imam Shaafi as none of these fiqihs ever used Bukhari to derive the sunni fiqh/mazhabs (all of them with the exception of Imam Hanbal died before the time of Muhammad Ismael Bukhari)

Ahmed Ibne Hanble did enjoy his company and shared 31 years together but did not quote a single hadees (not even as a reference) from Bukhari. However at one stage Bukhari did show his work to Imam Hanble to which the Imam Hanble said to him “u need to polish it more and work harder

[/quote]

I dont claim that bukhari's work is best ever either.Infact I like muslim better than bukhari
bukhari etc and people after them are compilers the main charatcers are the narraters the sahaba & tabeen.

The bottomline of going through all this is that you should judge everyone with the same standard not try to selectively find faults in one person which unfortunately is what most 12ers seem to do with sayyidna umar's character.

Last person to post in this thread wins!
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Fair enough, I respect your comments.

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I know that, I was just giving more information.

Following info should be useful for all:

Holy Prophet’s Assessment Of Umar

A number of traditions have come down to us which speak of the Holy Prophet’s assessment of Umar.

Before the conversion of Umar to Islam, the prayer of the Holy Prophet is on record wherein he prayed “O God, glorify Thy faith by the conversion of Umar.”
There is a tradition that when Umar was converted to Islam the Holy Prophet said that Gabriel had visited him to say “O Muhammad, verily the dwellers in Heaven rejoice with you at the conversion of Umar.”

According to Abu Hurrayrah, the Holy Prophet once related a dream in the presence of Umar. The Holy Prophet related, “While I was asleep, I saw myself in paradise, and beheld there a woman performing her ablutions by the side of a house. I enquired whose house it was, and I was told that it was Umar’s. The lady said that she belonged to Umar. Then recollecting how jealous Umar was in the matter of women, I turned back, and thereafter I woke up”. Hearing this, Umar said, “O Prophet of God, everything of mine is at your service; how can I be jealous of you in any matter?”

On another occasion, the Holy Prophet had another dream. He related:
“While I was asleep, I dreamt that I drank milk. Then that milk began to flow from my fingers. That milk I asked Umar to drink, and he drank to his fill.” The Holy Prophet was asked to interpret the dream and he said that the dream signified that among his followers, Umar would excel every one in knowledge.

According to another tradition, the Holy Prophet said, “While I was asleep, I saw the people presented to me. These people wore garments. Some had garments reaching to their breasts, and some had garments which reached their toes. Then Umar was presented, and upon him was a garment which was so long that he dragged it as he moved”. The Holy Prophet was requested to interpret the dream. The Holy Prophet said that the significance of the dream was that Umar would be a source of strength and service to Islam.

Al-Bukhari carries a tradition according to which the Holy Prophet said that there was to be no prophet after him, but if there were to be no bar to such prophethood, Umar would have been the prophet. That was the highest tribute that the Holy Prophet could pay to Umar.

According to another tradition the Holy Prophet said, “Verily God has placed truth upon the tongue of Umar, and upon his heart.” According to an allied tradition, the Holy Prophet said, "Never did a thing come upon the people, and they said one thing regarding it, and Umar another, but the Qur’an revealed it after the manner that Umar had said. The greatest tribute was paid to Umar, when the Holy Prophet said, “God speaks through the tongue of ;Umar.”

There is a tradition that Gabriel once came to the Holy Prophet and said, “Greet Umar with a salutation, and tell him that his anger is glory and his approval, command.”

According to a tradition, the Holy Prophet said, “Umar is the lamp of the dwellers in paradise.”

A tradition is on record according to which pointing to Umar the Holy Prophet said, “Umar is a strongly bolted gate against discord. As long as he lives in your midst, there will be no discord among the Muslims.”

We have it on the authority of 'Ayesha that the Holy Prophet said, “Verily I behold the evil spirits among genii and men, fleeing from Umar”.

In the same strain the Holy Prophet said, “Verily Satan avoideth Umar.”

There is another tradition according to which the Holy Prophet said, “There is not an angel in Heaven, but he revereth Umar, and not a demon on earth but he fleeth from Umar.”,

On the occasion of the last pilgrimage the Holy Prophet said, “Verily God approved of the conduct of the pilgrims at Arafat in general and Umar in particular”.

There is a tradition that in the days of his illness the Holy Prophet said, “The Truth after me is with Umar, wherever he may be.”

About Umar’s victory against Satan, the Holy Prophet said, “Verily Satan hath never met Umar since his conversion, but he hath fallen prostrate on his face.”
According to a tradition the Holy Prophet said, “Gabriel said to me, 'verily Islam will weep at the death of Umar.”

According to a tradition the Holy Prophet expressed his attachment to Umar in the following terms: “He who hateth Umar hates me, and he who loveth Umar loves me”.

Testament and Assessment of Umar

For those who are interested and those who don’t know much about Hz. Umar (ra) (except bad) should read from the following:

Khalifa Umar bin al-Khattab

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healthy mind,

***as for the narration, please, prove that the narration is authentic.
because the More authentic narration says Prophet SAW said:

"Awwalu ma khalaqallahu nuri" [The first thing that was created (by Allah) was my nur] i.e. his soul.

this is more authentic than your isolated frogeries.
Moreover in `Aqeedah books such as Imam Abu Hanifa's al Fiqh al Akbar and Imam Tahwai's al Aqeedah it says in order of the rank of the companions:
[1] Abu Bakr
[2] Umr
[3] Uthman
[4] Ali
May Allah be pleased with them all.
There are many hadith thats says the above, infact it is reported in a Mutawatir Hadith that Ali (ra) says

"If you prefer me over Abu Bakr and Umr you will get the lashing of a Slanderer [Al Mizan al-I'thidal]

(quote by a brother )

wa'salaam

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Re: In defence of Hz Umar (ra) (In response to Pagluu’s Post)

Bicker and complain, pick and choose.

Keep doing this, while our ummah crumbles and rots from within.

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Peace unto you too – I’m always nice & honest and that’s the way I behave.

[QUOTE]
Did i hear u say "To deny such incidents of error or mistake is not Islamic". I admire your honesty.
[/QUOTE]

We don’t take anybody except the Prophets (peace be upon them all) to be infallible. Whether they be Hz. Abu Bakr , Hz. Umar, Hz. Uthman, Hz. Ali, members of Ahlul Bayt (this includes the wives, of course) and rest of the Companions ( May Allah (swt) be pleased with them all). They are fallible and bound to err cause that’s human. Though they are the best of creation after the Prophets (saw).

Now that you have ‘seen my honesty’ now let’s see your honesty :)

In my previous post I had quoted Imam Jaffar as Sadiq (ra) expressing his support to Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) and Hz. Umar (ra). Please acknowledge it and don’t come back that this hadith is weak or the Imam (ra) was doing Taqiyyah. :)

About bravery and fighting skills of Hz. Ali (ra) no one doubts it and are proud of it. I’ve one son and have name him Ali and always pray that he lives up to this ‘honoured’ name.

Just as much as we love Hz. Abu Bakr (ra) and Hz. Umar (ra), Hz. Ali (ra) is our hero too.

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Peace again and thanks for being nice and honest. Its so cute.

Now to the Infallibility issue. Ahluly Bayt (as) are infallible and thats quite clear from the Quran (33:33). You are denying that and i am not sure of the reason(s)! Perhaps may b because some wud've loved to decalre ur Khalifas infallible (shaykhayn, may b even include Muawiya and pehaps Yazid too) but given their record it would've been rather hard to prove, dont u think?

Now as for the first khalifa, although he was not as bad as the seconed one, its better that u do not push me to start. I am sure you do not want to open another thread this time 'In defence of the first Khalifa (ra)"....

And please do not address, the 6th Imam As Sadiq, the teacher of your Imam ul Aazam(s) in this manner. Sharafat demands at least a little gratitude as show by Imam Abu Hanifa when he said of the 2 years spent in the class taught by Imam Sadiq (as)

'if these two years had not been available to me due to my good fortune, Numan (Abu Hanifa) would have been dead'

What Do You Think Of?
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btw i am pleased to hear that.

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Re: In defence of Hz Umar (ra) (In response to Pagluu’s Post)

[QUOTE]
As for Abu Bakr, i again ask u if u wish to start a new thread in defence of the first khalifa so that we may start on him.
[QUOTE]

yes and then another thread for uthman(ra) rite?

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Come, come boy you don’t have to be that harsh! But then ignorance is bliss!

You should know that all the zealots are on the edge of extremism.

How conveniently you are playing the ignorant of the fact 12er Shias were doing exactly the same of what you are moaning about.

If this act of playing the **Ignorant **was deliberate then it is inexcusable and indefensible.

Now let’s see the 12er Shias in action – Let me know which Zealots started it first!

To be absolutely fair it is from Iranian Shia site

History of Iran: Safavid Empire 1502 - 1736

Shah Esma’il described himself as a descendant, on their father’s side, of the Prophet Mohammad and claimed to have royal Sassanian blood as well. Shi’ism became the state religion, Esma’il ignored the Sunni branch of Islam and tried to force people to become Shi’a, which was a difficult task with a variety of tribes and less than complete authority.

The Ottoman sultan, Bayezid II, in his message congratulated Shah Esma’il on his victories and advised him to stop destroying the graves and mosques of Sunni Muslims. Shah Esma’il was convinced of the righteousness of his cause and the evil of the Sunni branch of Islam; he did ignore the request.

More info here: Shi’a: The Safavids

The Safavids, then, were a kind of hereditary mystical spiritual authority. In the fifteenth century, the Safavids converted to Shi’ism and evolved a militant theology that demanded the supremacy of Shi’ism through force of arms.He had assumed control of the Safavids in 1494 AD / 900 AH (at the age of seven!), and appears to have gained a fanatical following by not only calling himself the representative of the Hidden Imam, but by claiming to be the Hidden Imam himself (later he would claim divinity). His followers believed that the Hidden Imam had returned and that they were soldiers in the forces of righteousness.

He enforced Shi’ism on everyone; at the time, Sunni Muslims vastly outnumbered Shi’ites in Iran. He forced them to curse the first three Caliphs and to be ruled under the Shi’ite ulama . Here’s a surprise. He succeeded. His efforts to turn Iran into a Shi’ite population was remarkably successful, and Iran to this day is almost entirely Shi’ite.

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O ignorant one! How can one start a thread in defence of the first Khalifa when no one has attacked him yet!!!!

It is in your blood and genes to attack the pious ones and your 'religious' obligation to curse and attack the great ones of Islam.

Give in to your urge and open a thread to attack him.

Then it will my honour and privilege (or any other person) to open a thread "in defence of the first khalif"

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**
yada,yada,yada.................... you guys are known for using the Quran and hadith out of context!
but anyway your false accusations on umar (ra) are just as much out of context..
**
***As for the narration in Sahih Bukhari regarding the pen and the paper, then Prophet [SAW] was in his last breath [few hours before his death] so imagine Prophet SAW's physical health, would anyone want the noble Prophet SAW to even move a muscle in that state? no...you'd want him to relax and take it easy:

read the following:

When the Apostle’s illness became severe, he (i.e. a Sahabi) and the men came down to Medinah and he went into the Apostle(’s house) who was unable to speak. He (the Prophet) began to lift his hand towards heaven and then bring it down upon him, from which he (the Sahabi) knew that he (the Prophet) was blessing him (the Sahabi).

(Ibn Ishaq, Seerah Rasool-Allah, p.680)
(Tareekh al-Tabari (Vol.9, pp.178-179)

When they caused a hue and cry before the Prophet, Allah’s Apostle said, “Go away!” Narrated Ubaidullah: Ibn Abbas used to say, “It was very unfortunate that Allah’s Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise.”

(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 70, Number 573)

if you can read the above narration it says "go away" it wasn't directed at Umr [Ra] it was directed at every Companions who were making the noise in the same room as Prophet SAW, and Ibn Abbas [Ra] was upset because of that noise that prevented him.

and by the way Umr [Ra] was not on his own in the choice he made:

But the companions of the Prophet differed about this and there was a hue and cry. On that the Prophet said to them, “Go away (and leave me alone). It is not right that you should quarrel in front of me.” Ibn Abbas came out saying, “It was most unfortunate (a great disaster) that Allah’s Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise.”

(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 114)

from the above narration it shows the "Companions" differed on this issue, not 'a companion', which led ibn Abbas [Ra] to be upset. because of their differing. ***
**
you are clearly contradicting yourself!
and as for Ali (ra) we do not deny hz Ali being a great man indeed he was, but its just the fact that you people are jealous of the first three caliphs,
A hadeeth for you
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"if you prefer me over Abu Bakr and Umr you will get the lashing of a Slanderer [Al Mizan al-I'thidal]" lol you need to get your facts right
**
the hour will come and you will be questioned upon your accusations then what will you reply? maybe explain to Allah (swt) that your accusations upon the sahaba wer out of jealousy?

lol next time you quote from sahi bhukari do so properly not picking and playing with words:)

wa'salaam

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exactly!

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ur reply abt the Shia 'mazalim' is quite funny. Look at the irony of it:

1) u say "Wahabis love Hz Ali"

2)Surdar say if they love Imam Ali then "why did they attack and looted his and Imam Hussein's shrine?"

3) u come back and tell him that Esmailis or Safavids or Iranis r zalim and bad people!

^Now what on earth has 3 got to do with 1 or 2?

ok, now that u have gone into the shock and have stopped making sense, i think we finally might've had enough. ciao and sorry if i offended u personally.

LAWN MANIA 2012
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Re: In defence of Hz Umar (ra) (In response to Pagluu’s Post)

Brother, wasn't Muhammad Bin Abi Bakr also involved in murder of Hazrat Uthman ra? That makes him controversial.