Keep Away From Sects

Society Religion & Philosophy
61

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rehman1: *

Ok. I do Pillow now. Oh, wait a minute. "Takiya" is your concept.
Our concepts are open for discussion as always. During the last
1400 years We Muslims have never buried our faith for any reason.
Unlike some people who believe fairy tales.

Our beliefs are right in front of you. And Its not part of our faith
to hide ourselves in rooms and curse others AS A RELIGIOUS practice.

[/QUOTE]

Arent your trying your best to get this topic closed cuase its seems getting out of the reach of your limited mind.

another thing, Qur'an has ayat allowing taqiyya... so you're saying its not your belief to follow Quran??

You wanna debate on it, open a new topic.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rehman1: *
This topic started as keeping away from sects and even those sects never included your cult.
Than we moved to Saved Sect and I think Siddique Bhi And I have
pointed out towards this SAVED group of people. Abb ismee AQLMUND laugo ke leye signs hee. Who ever can understand.

Take Care
and don't mess with me, Warna tu Tsunami me doob kaar margegaa.
[/QUOTE]

LOL, Tsunami?! isnt that the new word you learned recently?!! Stop running away and answer the questions asked.

62

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rehman1: *

I don't consider this sect as Muslim b/c they belief
that Imams horse is sacred and Its offspring are still alive and arabic.
But unfortunately, the people who belief in such b_ _ _ _ _ _ t_
are not Arabic but are Iranians and Pakistanis.
Care to explain that to me.
[/QUOTE]
I dont consider that sect as Momin because they belief that their God ride on a Donkey and comedown to the 4th sky to meet dead people. Unfortunately they got this b_ _ _ _ _ _ t_ belief from not the Muslim Imams but from the Iranian Imams. Care to explain that to me.

63

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rehman1: *

This topic started as keeping away from sects and even those sects never included your cult.
Than we moved to Saved Sect and I think Siddique Bhi And I have
pointed out towards this SAVED group of people. Abb ismee AQLMUND laugo ke leye signs hee. Who ever can understand.

[/QUOTE]

If you were talking about the characteristics of the SAVED group; then why the following is missing. This was the point from where the discussion was started.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rehman1: *
He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "Adhere to the group of Muslims and their Chief." I asked, "If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief (what shall I do)?" He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "Keep away from all those different sects, even if you had to bite (i.e. eat) the root of a tree, till you meet Allah while you are still in that state."

[/QUOTE]

Why not you bring one of the two things; and make it simple - I challenge you; if you are doing one of the above two things..

(1) Name your cheif with mention the group of Muslims
(2) If not; tell do you all eat roots of a tree; and meet Allah while in that state.

If you dont have any of the above thing; you are not liable to make a call "Keep away from sects"

64

^ inuit - I’ll try to answer all your questions on Sunday if this thread doesn’t get locked up before that. I am really pressed for time till then. And believe me there is not much to answer any way and I am just doing it so that you don’t carried away that you really have stumped somebody.

In the meantime you have to solve this ‘problem’ as yet.

It is your own post in your own thread!

http://www.gupistan.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=151069#post2499428

Here is an example to start :

The following is the question I could not answer yet.
Writing answer to this question in a new thread would break the rules and regulations defined in Moratorium. However question is still there.

Member Name: Ibn Sadique
Thread Name: Imamat in quran …?
posted: 03-04-2004 01:09 PM

Questions: Who was the Imam just before Prophet Muhammad (saw) and the one before that one?

I have done half of my job. Now i will past those questions which i asked but never answered.

65

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by inuit: *

If you were talking about the characteristics of the SAVED group; then why the following is missing. This was the point from where the discussion was started.

Why not you bring one of the two things; and make it simple - I challenge you; if you are doing one of the above two things..

(1) Name your cheif with mention the group of Muslims
(2) If not; tell do you all eat roots of a tree; and meet Allah while in that state.

If you dont have any of the above thing; you are not liable to make a call "Keep away from sects"
[/QUOTE]

don't go around in circles. You are not even invited. This is about Muslims.I don’t think we are discussing your doctrine. Why should I defend myself. I will answer only to my brothers and sisters.

.

66

:stupid:

as expected, this is the best you can come with.

Dude, if I was you, I would have taken the challenge seriously.

heres a muft mashwara, if you dont know the answers to above, or dont have anything useful to add then dont degrade your self in front of others. Just give up and stay away from the post. :-/

67

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by inuit: *

If you were talking about the characteristics of the SAVED group; then why the following is missing. This was the point from where the discussion was started.

Why not you bring one of the two things; and make it simple - I challenge you; if you are doing one of the above two things..

(1) Name your cheif with mention the group of Muslims
(2) If not; tell do you all eat roots of a tree; and meet Allah while in that state.

If you dont have any of the above thing; you are not liable to make a call "Keep away from sects"
[/QUOTE]

Sahih Bukhari : Volume 6, Book 56, Number 803]

Narrated Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman (Radi Allah Anhu): The people used to ask Allah's Apostle (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) about good, but I used to ask him about evil for fear that it might overtake me.

Once I said, "O Allah's Apostle (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam)! We were in ignorance and in evil and Allah has bestowed upon us the present good; will there by any evil after this good?"

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "Yes."

I asked, "Will there be good after that evil?"

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "Yes, but it would be tained with Dakhan (i.e. Little evil)."

I asked, "What will its Dakhan be?"

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "There will be some people who will lead (people) according to principles other than my tradition. You will see their actions and disapprove of them."

I said, "Will there by any evil after that good?"

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "Yes, there will be some people who will invite others to the doors of Hell, and whoever accepts their invitation to it will be thrown in it (by them)."

I said, "O Allah's Apostle (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam)! Describe those people to us."

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "They will belong to us and speak our language"

I asked, "What do you order me to do if such a thing should take place in my life?"

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "Adhere to the group of Muslims and their Chief."

I asked, "If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief (what shall I do)?"

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "Keep away from all those different sects, even if you had to bite (i.e. eat) the root of a tree, till you meet Allah while you are still in that state."

Let’s begin with analysing this hadeeth initially posted by brother Rehman1.

1) The Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) used to tell about the good that will happen to the Muslim Ummah.

2) Narrator of the Hadeeth, Hz Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman (Radi Allah Anhu) used to ask about the evil that may or will fall on the Ummah.

3) The Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) said that there will be evil after the goodness of Islam and after there will be goodness tainted with ‘little evil’.

4) Then the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) said: "There will be some people who will lead (people) according to principles other than my tradition. You will see their actions and disapprove of them." [This is alluding to Mutazalis who gave preference to Rationality than hadeeth].

5) Then the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Yes, there will be some people who will invite others to the doors of Hell, and whoever accepts their invitation to it will be thrown in it (by them)."

6) When asked to describe these people “who will invite others to the doors of hell”, he said that, "They will belong to us and speak our language", and to avoid there evil one should “Adhere to the group of Muslims and their Chief”

7) When asked what should one do "If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief (what shall I do)?" He answered, "Keep away from all those different sects, even if you had to bite (i.e. eat) the root of a tree, till you meet Allah while you are still in that state."

The last statement is very important. Read it 3 times and let it sink in real good.

a) The Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) has tacitly agreed that there will come a time when there will be no Muslim leadership.

b) A time may come when there is no “group of Muslims” around.

If the Leadership/Imamate/Khilafaat was to be there for ever till the doomsday the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) would have corrected and assured Hz Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman (Radi Allah Anhu) that the Imam of Muslims is going to be there till the last day even if he is unapproachable/somewhere in the caves of Samarra.

It is not the first time the Khilaafat has been destroyed.

The first time the Mongols sacked Baghdad and killed the reigning Khaleef. Later the Khilafaat was claimed by the Uthmanis. And this Khilafaat remained with them until 1924 when the western powers [France, Britain and Russia] with help of collaborator ‘Muslims’ destroyed it.

Alhamdulilah we have a lot of hadith material where the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) has prophesized that Muslims will again rule the World - Insha’Allah.

Mind you all the future predictions of the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) have come true. So will this.

So now to your challenge:

[QUOTE]

(1) Name your cheif with mention the group of Muslims
(2) If not; tell do you all eat roots of a tree; and meet Allah while in that state.
[/QUOTE]

1) At the present time there is no Khilafah; so how could one name him.
2) There is no need to eat the roots of a tree, you know why?

The Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) responded to “If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief” then to eat roots of a tree (to show desperation – I think).

Yes the Chief ain’t there but we still have [Alhamdulilah] group within Sunnis who are fighting for supremacy of Islam and not bowing down to the Kuffar and their surrogates.

Now you tell me ‘Name of your Imam and ‘How does he lead you or benefit you?’

68

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ibn Sadique: *

Sahih Bukhari : Volume 6, Book 56, Number 803]

Narrated Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman (Radi Allah Anhu): The people used to ask Allah's Apostle (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) about good, but I used to ask him about evil for fear that it might overtake me.

Once I said, "O Allah's Apostle (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam)! We were in ignorance and in evil and Allah has bestowed upon us the present good; will there by any evil after this good?"

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "Yes."

I asked, "Will there be good after that evil?"

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "Yes, but it would be tained with Dakhan (i.e. Little evil)."

I asked, "What will its Dakhan be?"

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "There will be some people who will lead (people) according to principles other than my tradition. You will see their actions and disapprove of them."

I said, "Will there by any evil after that good?"

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "Yes, there will be some people who will invite others to the doors of Hell, and whoever accepts their invitation to it will be thrown in it (by them)."

I said, "O Allah's Apostle (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam)! Describe those people to us."

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "They will belong to us and speak our language"

I asked, "What do you order me to do if such a thing should take place in my life?"

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, *"Adhere to the group of Muslims and their Chief." *

I asked, "If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief (what shall I do)?"

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "Keep away from all those different sects, even if you had to bite (i.e. eat) the root of a tree, till you meet Allah while you are still in that state."

Let’s begin with analysing this hadeeth initially posted by brother Rehman1.

1) The Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) used to tell about the good that will happen to the Muslim Ummah.

2) Narrator of the Hadeeth, Hz Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman (Radi Allah Anhu) used to ask about the evil that may or will fall on the Ummah.

3) The Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) said that there will be evil after the goodness of Islam and after there will be goodness tainted with ‘little evil’.

4) Then the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) said: "There will be some people who will lead (people) according to principles other than my tradition. You will see their actions and disapprove of them." [This is alluding to Mutazalis who gave preference to Rationality than hadeeth].

5) Then the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Yes, there will be some people who will invite others to the doors of Hell, and whoever accepts their invitation to it will be thrown in it (by them)."

6) When asked to describe these people “who will invite others to the doors of hell”, he said that, "They will belong to us and speak our language", and to avoid there evil one should “Adhere to the group of Muslims and their Chief”

7) When asked what should one do "If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief (what shall I do)?" He answered, "Keep away from all those different sects, even if you had to bite (i.e. eat) the root of a tree, till you meet Allah while you are still in that state."

The last statement is very important. Read it 3 times and let it sink in real good.

a) The Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) has tacitly agreed that there will come a time when there will be no Muslim leadership.

b) A time may come when there is no “group of Muslims” around.

If the Leadership/Imamate/Khilafaat was to be there for ever till the doomsday the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) would have corrected and assured Hz Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman (Radi Allah Anhu) that the Imam of Muslims is going to be there till the last day even if he is unapproachable/somewhere in the caves of Samarra.

It is not the first time the Khilaafat has been destroyed.

The first time the Mongols sacked Baghdad and killed the reigning Khaleef. Later the Khilafaat was claimed by the Uthmanis. And this Khilafaat remained with them until 1924 when the western powers [France, Britain and Russia] with help of collaborator ‘Muslims’ destroyed it.

Alhamdulilah we have a lot of hadith material where the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) has prophesized that Muslims will again rule the World - Insha’Allah.

Mind you all the future predictions of the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) have come true. So will this.

So now to your challenge:

1) At the present time there is no Khilafah; so how could one name him.
2) There is no need to eat the roots of a tree, you know why?

The Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) responded to “If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief” then to eat roots of a tree (to show desperation – I think).

Yes the Chief ain’t there but we still have [Alhamdulilah] group within Sunnis who are fighting for supremacy of Islam and not bowing down to the Kuffar and their surrogates.

Now you tell me ‘Name of your Imam and ‘How does he lead you or benefit you?’
[/QUOTE]

The Khalafat can not be established by just claiming anybody like you wrote about the Uthmanis - you misunderstood the concept of Khalafat of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) and started favoring these Monarchies. This was the planning of these Monarchies to inject such kind of beliefs in your mind so it can be helpful to strengthen their kingdoms based on falsehood.

How unfortunate this thing is that people like Yazeed, Marwan in past and Fahad & Musharaf and Sadam rule over the Muslim world and you think that its according to hadith material where the Prophet (PBUH&HF) has prophesized. How much they are successful in their evil mission of building false concept about Khalafat in general Muslims’ mind to achieve their interests. so sad.

I have seen a common habit in Local Moulvies of rural areas; whenever you ask them about some Muss'Ala - rather then they make it short and precise - they start telling the whole long stories. and makes the things more complicated. if you ask them again for some further information, instead of starting from that particular point they start from the same starting point from where they took start before. I think this training they got from their local madrisas from their local style moulvies. the same habit is inherited to Qadiyanies. you are doing the same, I am asking you a specific thing from the Hadith and instead of starting from the point where I asked you; you started telling the same hadith which Rehman1 already wrote in the beginning of this thread. I think you like filling up pages and trying to impress people that you have more knowledge; can type a lot of on these matters.

Don’t forget, that this hadith is Hujjat for you. I hope you must be aware of the general procedure of discussion.
**
You are taking about (a) Group of Muslims & (b) Chief as two separate entities and saying (if) any of these two is available; its okay ! no need to eat Root of Tree. You are interpreting the Hadith keeping view your present conditions rather than going to the actual message. This is a false method of studying Quran and Hadith; that is why Muslim Ummah in trouble. Anyway! Prophet(PBUH) Said: “Adhere to the group of Muslims and their Chief”. This is a single entity;

Firstly the word “and” is used here, not the word “or”. If you use “and” the sense will be different and if you use the word “or”.

Secondly the word "their" - "their chief" clearly shows that you should keep in touch with the SAME group who has a chief; not ANY group of Muslims.

The prophet NEVER said that there will be a time when there will be no Muslim leadership.**

I think you are already aware of the rulings of your Fuqha regarding Jihad in the absence of leadership or not having his orders. We are pretty well informed about the names of our Imams and living under the leadership and Guidance of present imam and getting benefits from him. Don’t worry about us; first tell about yourself. You agreed that there is no Khalifah at the present time; and disobeying the orders of the Holy Prophet(PBUH&HF), while not eating the root of a tree - So those people who are not following the Prophet Muhammad(PBUH), how come they claim to be the saved-sect.

Be Brave - if you don’t have answer to this question; no harm in Admitting it. We are in continues processes of learning and our knowledge is growing. Growing shows that we are lacking something. No harm in saying "I don’t know". or still working on it". nobody will disturb you.

69

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rehman1: *

don't go around in circles. You are not even invited. This is about Muslims.I don’t think we are discussing your doctrine. Why should I defend myself. I will answer only to my brothers and sisters.

.
[/QUOTE]
proud like bush -- aakar waykho aaydi ,,

70

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ibn Sadique: *

Sahih Bukhari : Volume 6, Book 56, Number 803]

Narrated Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman (Radi Allah Anhu): The people used to ask Allah's Apostle (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) about good, but I used to ask him about evil for fear that it might overtake me.

Once I said, "O Allah's Apostle (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam)! We were in ignorance and in evil and Allah has bestowed upon us the present good; will there by any evil after this good?"

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "Yes."

I asked, "Will there be good after that evil?"

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "Yes, but it would be tained with Dakhan (i.e. Little evil)."

I asked, "What will its Dakhan be?"

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "There will be some people who will lead (people) according to principles other than my tradition. You will see their actions and disapprove of them."

I said, "Will there by any evil after that good?"

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "Yes, there will be some people who will invite others to the doors of Hell, and whoever accepts their invitation to it will be thrown in it (by them)."

I said, "O Allah's Apostle (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam)! Describe those people to us."

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "They will belong to us and speak our language"

I asked, "What do you order me to do if such a thing should take place in my life?"

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "Adhere to the group of Muslims and their Chief."

I asked, "If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief (what shall I do)?"

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "Keep away from all those different sects, even if you had to bite (i.e. eat) the root of a tree, till you meet Allah while you are still in that state."

Let’s begin with analysing this hadeeth initially posted by brother Rehman1.

1) The Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) used to tell about the good that will happen to the Muslim Ummah.

2) Narrator of the Hadeeth, Hz Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman (Radi Allah Anhu) used to ask about the evil that may or will fall on the Ummah.

3) The Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) said that there will be evil after the goodness of Islam and after there will be goodness tainted with ‘little evil’.

4) Then the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) said: "There will be some people who will lead (people) according to principles other than my tradition. You will see their actions and disapprove of them." [This is alluding to Mutazalis who gave preference to Rationality than hadeeth].

5) Then the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) said: "Yes, there will be some people who will invite others to the doors of Hell, and whoever accepts their invitation to it will be thrown in it (by them)."

6) When asked to describe these people “who will invite others to the doors of hell”, he said that, "They will belong to us and speak our language", and to avoid there evil one should “Adhere to the group of Muslims and their Chief”

7) When asked what should one do "If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief (what shall I do)?" He answered, "Keep away from all those different sects, even if you had to bite (i.e. eat) the root of a tree, till you meet Allah while you are still in that state."

The last statement is very important. Read it 3 times and let it sink in real good.

a) The Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) has tacitly agreed that there will come a time when there will be no Muslim leadership.

b) A time may come when there is no “group of Muslims” around.

If the Leadership/Imamate/Khilafaat was to be there for ever till the doomsday the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) would have corrected and assured Hz Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman (Radi Allah Anhu) that the Imam of Muslims is going to be there till the last day even if he is unapproachable/somewhere in the caves of Samarra.

It is not the first time the Khilaafat has been destroyed.

The first time the Mongols sacked Baghdad and killed the reigning Khaleef. Later the Khilafaat was claimed by the Uthmanis. And this Khilafaat remained with them until 1924 when the western powers [France, Britain and Russia] with help of collaborator ‘Muslims’ destroyed it.

Alhamdulilah we have a lot of hadith material where the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) has prophesized that Muslims will again rule the World - Insha’Allah.

Mind you all the future predictions of the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) have come true. So will this.

So now to your challenge:

1) At the present time there is no Khilafah; so how could one name him.
2) There is no need to eat the roots of a tree, you know why?

The Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) responded to “If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief” then to eat roots of a tree (to show desperation – I think).

Yes the Chief ain’t there but we still have [Alhamdulilah] group within Sunnis who are fighting for supremacy of Islam and not bowing down to the Kuffar and their surrogates.

Now you tell me ‘Name of your Imam and ‘How does he lead you or benefit you?’
[/QUOTE]

Subhaan Allah. Buhat Zabardast jawab dia App nee.
May Allah(SWT) bless you.

Take Care

71

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by rehman1: *

Subhaan Allah. Buhat Zabardast jawab dia App nee.
May Allah(SWT) bless you.

Take Care
[/QUOTE]
This is how your khalafat system is (esp the Uthmanis) ! always agreed upon falsehood,

72

inuit

[QUOTE]
The Khalafat can not be established by just claiming anybody like you wrote about the Uthmanis - you misunderstood the concept of Khalafat of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH&HF) and started favoring these Monarchies. This was the planning of these Monarchies to inject such kind of beliefs in your mind so it can be helpful to strengthen their kingdoms based on falsehood.

How unfortunate this thing is that people like Yazeed, Marwan in past and Fahad & Musharaf and Sadam rule over the Muslim world and you think that its according to hadith material where the Prophet (PBUH&HF) has prophesized. How much they are successful in their evil mission of building false concept about Khalafat in general Muslims’ mind to achieve their interests. so sad.
[/QUOTE]

I’ll take the above just as a typical rant and nothing much of substance. This is completely ‘long story’ and has been discussed many times over. I will add the following hadeeth which clearly shows how the Khilafaat will ‘move’.

*"Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: ‘Prophet hood will last among you as long as Allah wishes it to last, and then Allah will raise it. Afterwards there will be the Khilafa according to the ways o f the Prophet hood as long as Allah wishes it to last, then Allah will raise it. Afterwards there will be hereditary rule (by consent) and it will last as long as Allah wishes, then Allah will raise it. Afterwards there will be biting oppression and it will last as long as Allah wishes, then Allah will raise it. Afterwards there will be a Khilafa according to the ways of Prophethood.’ And then the Prophet (peace be upon him) was silent." * - (Musnad Ahmad bin Humbal)

You have to know that Sunnis take the first four Khaleefs (May Allah (swt) be pleased with them all) to the rightly guided on ways of the Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him). The rest of Khaleefs are in authority for implementation of Shariyyah and not authority in Faith for Islam.

There is a hadeeth to the effect that Ulemah are inheritors of the Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him). Even Shias have hadeeth to this effect.

Sunnis take knowledge from Imams/Ulemah based on Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet (Peace and Blessings be upon him). Show me the books we follow that have been written by Khaleefs. Don’t try as you won’t find any!

Keep the above in mind and the following too. Yazeed, Marwan of the past and Fahad & Musharaf and Sadaam have no religious authority for Sunnis just as shah of Iran had to do anything with Shiaism.

[QUOTE]
I have seen a common habit in Local Moulvies of rural areas; whenever you ask them about some Muss'Ala - rather then they make it short and precise - they start telling the whole long stories. and makes the things more complicated. if you ask them again for some further information, instead of starting from that particular point they start from the same starting point from where they took start before. I think this training they got from their local madrisas from their local style moulvies. the same habit is inherited to Qadiyanies. you are doing the same, I am asking you a specific thing from the Hadith and instead of starting from the point where I asked you; you started telling the same hadith which Rehman1 already wrote in the beginning of this thread. I think you like filling up pages and trying to impress people that you have more knowledge; can type a lot of on these matters.
[/QUOTE]

Well, it’s your choice, if you want to go to local rural moulvies to ask for Muss’ala. Try to leave your village settings behind and head for the cities and find some Ulemah of repute and insha’Allah all your Muss’alas will be taken care for.

I bet if you had a medical problem *, you would have rushed to the best hospital in the nearest city instead of your local village vet/doctor. So in matters of deen try to go to the best Aalim.

[QUOTE]
Don’t forget, that this hadith is Hujjat for you. I hope you must be aware of the general procedure of discussion.
[/QUOTE]

Of course this hadith is hujjat for me and not you. I am not trying to convince/convert you. This hadith is for likes of me to believe what is in it and for likes of you to know what likes of me believe and why we believe so.

[QUOTE]
You are taking about (a) Group of Muslims & (b) Chief as two separate entities and saying (if) any of these two is available; its okay ! no need to eat Root of Tree. You are interpreting the Hadith keeping view your present conditions rather than going to the actual message. This is a false method of studying Quran and Hadith; that is why Muslim Ummah in trouble. Anyway! Prophet(PBUH) Said: “Adhere to the group of Muslims and their Chief”. This is a single entity;
[/QUOTE]

Your logic really amazes me. You have put by your on hand ‘Group of Muslims’ & ‘Chief’ in two separate categories (a) and (b) and separated it using &. Chief is a leader and he leads and his followers follow him. These two identities work in unison as a group - the saved group/sect.

Message of hadeeth is for all times (Universal) and we can apply it to our times too

OK can we have the actual message from you?

[QUOTE]
Firstly the word “and” is used here, not the word “or”. If you use “and” the sense will be different and if you use the word “or”.

Secondly the word "their" - "their chief" clearly shows that you should keep in touch with the SAME group who has a chief; not ANY group of Muslims.
[/QUOTE]

Please concentrate on the last question asked by Hz. Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman (Radi Allah Anhu)

"If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief (what shall I do)?”

He is asking for two identities, neither a group nor a Chief.

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "Adhere to the group of Muslims and their Chief."

I asked, "If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief (what shall I do)?"

He (sal-allahu-alleihi-wasallam) said, "Keep away from all those different sects, even if you had to bite (i.e. eat) the root of a tree, till you meet Allah while you are still in that state."

In response the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) replied, "Keep away from all those different sects, even if you had to bite (i.e. eat) the root of a tree, till you meet Allah while you are still in that state."

The Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) did not command him to go and bite the roots of the tree, because the words would have been "Keep away from all those different sects, and bite (i.e. eat) the root of a tree, till you meet Allah while you are still in that state."

If you read it properly, the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) saying in essence that it would be better to bite (eat) roots of a tree than to join up with the deviant sects. That means Do Not Join the Deviant Sects at any Cost to you.

[QUOTE]
The prophet NEVER said that there will be a time when there will be no Muslim leadership.
[/QUOTE]

I guess that you missed reading point no. 7 of my last post, quoted below:

[QUOTE]
7) When asked what should one do "If there is neither a group (of Muslims) nor a chief (what shall I do)?" He answered, "Keep away from all those different sects, even if you had to bite (i.e. eat) the root of a tree, till you meet Allah while you are still in that state."

The last statement is very important. Read it 3 times and let it sink in real good.

a) The Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) has tacitly agreed that there will come a time when there will be no Muslim leadership.

b) A time may come when there is no “group of Muslims” around.

If the Leadership/Imamate/Khilafaat was to be there for ever till the doomsday the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) would have corrected and assured Hz Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman (Radi Allah Anhu) that the Imam of Muslims is going to be there till the last day even if he is unapproachable/somewhere in the caves of Samarra.
[/QUOTE]

I had asked you to read it 3 times and yet you have missed the point.

Hz Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman (Radi Allah Anhu) had stated a condition when their will neither the group nor the Chief.

The Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) neither corrected him nor contradicted him.

That is tacitly agreeing to what Hz Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman (ra) was stating.

[QUOTE]
I think you are already aware of the rulings of your Fuqha regarding Jihad in the absence of leadership or not having his orders.
[/QUOTE]

I think you should read more what our Fuqha have written “regarding Jihad in the absence of leadership or not having his orders”. Fuqha are human and infallible and can have differences. We have enough evidences from Fuqha of how to conduct Defensive Jihad in absence of Leadership. You mean to say that since we don’t have ‘Islamic Authority’ we can let outsiders invade Muslim countries and we do nothing about since we have ‘NO ORDERS’. -Pathetic

Please try to do more research than pass on what you read on the ‘Net’.

Try reading something more on Defensive Jihad.

Don’t your Fuqha have a lot of controversy regarding the Concept of Wilayat Faqih. So much so that Ayatullah Khomeini had to lock up other Ayatullahs to silence them? It is human to have different opinions.*

73

cont'd

[QUOTE]
We are pretty well informed about the names of our Imams and living under the leadership and Guidance of present imam and getting benefits from him. Don’t worry about us; first tell about yourself. You agreed that there is no Khalifah at the present time; and disobeying the orders of the Holy Prophet(PBUH&HF), while not eating the root of a tree - So those people who are not following the Prophet Muhammad(PBUH), how come they claim to be the saved-sect.
[/QUOTE]

In your first response in the thread you had stated:

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by inuit: *
This Hadith is telling us the Importance of Leadership(Imamat). Stick to the group of Muslims and their Imam; otherwise eat root of the tree till death, mean don’t play any role in life and say away from cities and people. In other words you are useless. …………..
[/QUOTE]

OK. To you we are lost without an Imam. You say that this hadeeth is talking about Leadership/Imamate, understandably you must be alluding to the Shia version of Imamate, right?

Please share with us how this hadeeth refers to your Imamate?

And how you are “living under the leadership and Guidance of present imam and getting benefits from him.”

Please do not deprive 'others' of the Guidance and benefits? May Allah (swt) reward you for sharing the good.

How can your Imam lead you when he has stated just before his major disappearance: - ** “soon a time shall come when my Shias will claim to have met me. Beware! For the one who claims that, he has met me before the uprising of Sufyani and a call from the sky is a liar and a deceiver."**

There are many groups which even you consider to be deviant or outside the fold of Islam who can rightly lay claim that this hadeeth applies to them.

Ismails have their own imam: Who is alive and approachable and is ‘guiding’ his community as he sees fit.

Bohras: same as the above

Even non-Muslims like Ahmadis have their own Khaleefah and address him as ‘Amir ul Momeneen.’

Can’t these people above challenge us both Sunnis and Shias by asking:

1) “How can Sunnis follow their leader/Imam when his is not there?"

2) And "how can Shias be lead by their Imam who is hiding in a cave somewhere in Samarra for last 1200 years declaring anyone a liar who claims to have met him?"

Please enlighten us.

[QUOTE]
Be Brave - if you don’t have answer to this question; no harm in Admitting it. We are in continues processes of learning and our knowledge is growing. Growing shows that we are lacking something. No harm in saying "I don’t know". or still working on it". nobody will disturb you.
[/QUOTE]

I’ll take your advice and when need be, will surely follow it.

74

inuit How could have forgotten to respond to your remarks quoted below:

[QUOTE]
I think you like filling up pages and trying to impress people that you have more knowledge; can type a lot of on these matters.

[/QUOTE]

DO You want me clear out from this thread so that you can have the field day and carry on doing what you 'accuse' me of? I really wouldn't mind, just say so. :)

75

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ibn Sadique: *
Keep the above in mind and the following too. Yazeed, Marwan of the past and Fahad & Musharaf and Sadaam have no religious authority for Sunnis just as shah of Iran had to do anything with Shiaism.

[/QUOTE]
We cant call them Khalifa of Rasool(PBUH) in any means - whatever terminology you invent - these people are not Khalifa AT ALL.

That is why the following statement is clearly wrong. Because Yazeed, Marwan, Fahad, Musharaf, Sadaam, Shah of Iran are not even "Authority for Implementation of Shariyyah". this interpretation is putting you in a complex situation.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ibn Sadique: *
The rest of Khaleefs are in authority for implementation of Shariyyah and not authority in Faith for Islam.
[/QUOTE]

76

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ibn Sadique: *
Well, it’s your choice, if you want to go to local rural moulvies to ask for Muss’ala. Try to leave your village settings behind and head for the cities and find some Ulemah of repute and insha’Allah all your Muss’alas will be taken care for.

[/QUOTE]
I gave this example; and telling that you are acting like them. no doubt they also have access to internet. and doing the samething, which they use to do. are you one of them?

77

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ibn Sadique: *
If you read it properly, the Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) saying in essence that it would be better to bite (eat) roots of a tree than to join up with the deviant sects. That means Do Not Join the Deviant Sects at any Cost to you.
[/QUOTE]

If you are in a group without a chief; you are already a “Deviant Sect” no need to join anybody. A group without a chief cant be “saved-sect”

78

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ibn Sadique: *
I had asked you to read it 3 times and yet you have missed the point.

Hz Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman (Radi Allah Anhu) had stated a condition when their will neither the group nor the Chief.

The Prophet (Peace and blessings be upon him) neither corrected him nor contradicted him.
[/QUOTE]
Saying of Prophet (PBUH&HF) has more precedence over the question of Hz Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman

You didnt read:
Prophet(PBUH&HF) said : *“Adhere to the group of Muslims and their Chief”. *

79

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ibn Sadique: *
OK. To you we are lost without an Imam. You say that this hadeeth is talking about Leadership/Imamate, understandably you must be alluding to the Shia version of Imamate, right?

Please share with us how this hadeeth refers to your Imamate?

And how you are “living under the leadership and Guidance of present imam and getting benefits from him.”

Please do not deprive 'others' of the Guidance and benefits? May Allah (swt) reward you for sharing the good.

How can your Imam lead you when he has stated just before his major disappearance: - ** “soon a time shall come when my Shias will claim to have met me. Beware! For the one who claims that, he has met me before the uprising of Sufyani and a call from the sky is a liar and a deceiver."**

There are many groups which even you consider to be deviant or outside the fold of Islam who can rightly lay claim that this hadeeth applies to them.

Ismails have their own imam: Who is alive and approachable and is ‘guiding’ his community as he sees fit.

Bohras: same as the above

Even non-Muslims like Ahmadis have their own Khaleefah and address him as ‘Amir ul Momeneen.’

Can’t these people above challenge us both Sunnis and Shias by asking:

1) “How can Sunnis follow their leader/Imam when his is not there?"

2) And "how can Shias be lead by their Imam who is hiding in a cave somewhere in Samarra for last 1200 years declaring anyone a liar who claims to have met him?"

Please enlighten us.

I’ll take your advice and when need be, will surely follow it.
[/QUOTE]
So far we are discussing only one Hadith; which is posted at the beginning of this thread ; according to that first bring the name of your chief than I we will discuss on this topic. Its still your turn.

80

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by inuit: *
So far we are discussing only one Hadith; which is posted at the beginning of this thread ; according to that first bring the name of your chief than I we will discuss on this topic. Its still your turn.
[/QUOTE]

I am admitting that I don't have a leader now. I am living in ayam al-Jahliyyah. There is a hadith this effect. The present ummah is answerable for this collectively and individually.

You have a leader/Imam. You claim that he is infallible and master of everything on earth.

Why are you shying away from telling me how you are “living under the leadership and Guidance of present imam and getting benefits from him.”

Why deprive others of such guidance and benefits.

I'll reply to your other posts later.

Edit: Let me post the hadith regarding present Ummah being answerable for absence of Khilafaat:

On the autority of Nafi that Abdullah ibn Umar said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: "One who dies without having bound himself by an oath of allegiance (to an Amir) will die the death of one belonging to the days of Jahiliyyah." (Sahih Muslim)