Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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It is unfortunate that a general threatening an elected PM for dire consequences. I don’t understand how the elected civilian government can function normally under such circumtances. “koi batlaao ke hum batlaaiay kya”

http://www.dawn.com/2012/01/19/kayani-had-16-min-telephone-conversation-with-pm-on-jan-11-sources.html

Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

ISLAMABAD: The controversy revolving the govt-military differences resulting with the removal of former Secretary Defense Lt.Gen (r) Khalid Naeem Lodhi is still unfolding with new disclosures.

Among them is that Army Chief Kayani had spoken sixteen minutes to Prime Minister Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani on 11th January and expressed the military’s displeasure over his statement against him and the Chief of Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) during his visit to China, sources privy to the details revealed to Dawn.Com here on Thursday.

“Soon after the 102nd Cabinet meeting, which was presided over by Prime Minister Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani, he received a call from the Army Chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani informing him about his institutions displeasure over the statement of the Prime Minister,” an eye witness said.

Almost two days back, Prime Minister Gilani in an interview to Online China Daily had termed Chief of Army Staff Ashfaq Pervez Kayani and DG ISI General Ahmed Shuja Pasha’s depositions in the Supreme Court in the memogate case as illegal.

The civilian govt and the powerful Army, in Pakistan are currently going through a serious crisis in their relations after the publication of an article in a western newspaper by American businessman Mansoor Ijaz ,who claimed that he was contacted by Hussain Haqqani, former Pakistani Ambassador to Washington, for allegedly passing a memo to US authorities seeking to thwart a possible military coup, which was likely after the Osama Bin Laden’s killing in Abbotabad, 56 kilometers from Islamabad.

The sources claim that in the same telephonic conversation Army Chief Gen. Kayani also gave signal to Prime Minister Gilani to take back his statement however the PM politely refused.

This was the same call in which the Army Chief informed Gilani that he was issuing a statement against the interview of the prime minister.

The sources claim that the moments after the telephonic conversation Prime Minister Gilani saw the television screen where a private news channel was airing the statement of Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) warning the civilian govt of “ Serious ramifications with potentially grievous consequences for the country”.

Soon after watching the statement on television, Prime Minister Gilani directed Khushnood Lashari, the Principle Secretary, for the removal of Secretary Defense Lt.Gen (r) Khalid Naeem Lodhi. Meanwhile the prime minister also asked his press secretary to immediately issue a press release regarding his orders for the removal of the secretary defense.

The sources claim that the PM did not consult the President Asif Ali Zardari regarding the immediate removal of the secretary defense.

Interestingly almost half an hour ago the same day on January 11th 2012, the secretary defense had given a briefing to the federal cabinet on survey of Pakistan Amendment Bill 2011. Sources claim at that Prime Minister Gilani never gave an impression during the meeting that he would be sacked soon after the meeting.

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Re: Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

Let’s not overreact

Expressing your displeasure to your boss over something does not = Threatening the government

While Gilani was right to sack defence secretary (bypassed defence Minister and PM) for not following the correct process for submission of the military’s response (on Memo ) to SC, he (Gilani) was wrong to criticise Kayani. **The COAS also played by the book
**

**The army chief shows respect for law. The politicians flout the law and defy the Supreme Court. But that’s not all.

General Kayani, the army chief, has given the country’s politicians a lesson in tactics. While politicians often opt for knee-jerk responses to serious matters or follow their staffers’ improvisations, the general has chosen to play by the book.
He was prompt in answering the Supreme Court’s notice and thus distanced himself, in this case at least, from the politicians who are getting flak for avoiding compliance with the judiciary’s directives. He sent his statement to the Defense Ministry, as per rules. If the ministry did not follow the procedure laid down in the Rules of Business inscribed in a moth-eaten file of 1973, he cannot be blamed. That makes the PM angry at a time when he needs to be cooler than cucumber.**

http://www.pakistankakhudahafiz.com/2012/01/17/did-this-pakistani-general-teach-politicians-a-lesson-in-obeying-the-law/

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Re: Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

I repeat

[quote]
**The sources claim that the moments after the telephonic conversation Prime Minister Gilani saw the television screen where a private news channel was airing the statement of Inter Services Public Relations (ISPR) warning the civilian govt of “ Serious ramifications with potentially grievous consequences for the country”.

Soon after watching the statement on television, Prime Minister Gilani directed Khushnood Lashari, the Principle Secretary, for the removal of Secretary Defense Lt.Gen (r) Khalid Naeem Lodhi. Meanwhile the prime minister also asked his press secretary to immediately issue a press release regarding his orders for the removal of the secretary defense**.
[/quote]

Now I ask you which democratic government has ever been threatened by generals like above? Just give me one example.

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Re: Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

The ISPR statement was inflammatory (hard to know whether Kayani was actually consulted by ISPR or how much input he had into it) for sure and I have already condemned it

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Re: Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

Firing by boss shouldn’t be a problem either then if we go according to your logic. General Kiyani threatening call to premier should be condemn by everyone.

[QUOTE=]

**The army chief shows respect for law. The politicians flout the law and defy the Supreme Court. But that’s not all.

General Kayani, the army chief, has given the country’s politicians a lesson in tactics. While politicians often opt for knee-jerk responses to serious matters or follow their staffers’ improvisations, the general has chosen to play by the book.
He was prompt in answering the Supreme Court’s notice and thus distanced himself, in this case at least, from the politicians who are getting flak for avoiding compliance with the judiciary’s directives. He sent his statement to the Defense Ministry, as per rules. If the ministry did not follow the procedure laid down in the Rules of Business inscribed in a moth-eaten file of 1973, he cannot be blamed. That makes the PM angry at a time when he needs to be cooler than cucumber.**

http://www.pakistankakhudahafiz.com/2012/01/17/did-this-pakistani-general-teach-politicians-a-lesson-in-obeying-the-law/
[/quote]

i thought you can provide some better reference then PKKH. PKKH writer(s) have history of supporting every single blunder by our mighty untouchable army either its GHQ attack, Mehran Attack, OBL operation & killing of soldiers by NATO.

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Re: Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

As I mentioned before **if the elected governments have both constitutional and moral authority (which sadly they lose in Pakistan - and it is not necessarily a criticism of this government - by being so nalaiq and corrupt while in power) tub yeh baatein achi bhi lagti hain (like in Turkey) and people w’d support it

**Is the military preventing the civilian administation (again not an attack on PPP government only) from appointing clean, honest, capable and hard working people to important positions (government + private sector)?

**

PKKH may have a pro-military agenda but it still does not mean that we just blindly dismiss it. Read the whole article. Even the writer himself does not support military rule.

"Among the many matters civil society organizations dabble in, without unfortunately pursuing their efforts with due diligence, the question of imbalance in civil and military relations figures prominently. While it may be possible to blame the generals for assuming responsibilities that lie outside their professional mandate, the politicians have to accept a greater blame for the straits they have landed themselves in. They have yet to realize that the imbalance they complain of cannot be corrected by tinkering with this office or that and that the process is going to be long and arduous.
Two things are necessary. First, it needs to be understood that nobody can trifle with the military and its task of defending the country against external aggression. The people must be proud of their sons who give their lives to secure their freedom from external threats. But no good military gets involved with politics, even with civil administration (Ayub Khan too called it the route to corruption) because that will undermine the interests of the state and the military both.
Anyone who goads the military into intervening in politics is not its friend**"

**
Also read this:

Democracy is nothing if the government is not asserting moral standards. The Gilani government has lost moral credibility, and in turn it has eroded the faith of ordinary people in democracy. The public therefore is not interested in Monday’s resolution because it smells of hypocrisy. The public believes that the government is using the resolution to protect its corrupt leadership and cover up its failed policies of the last four years. PPP may refute its failures but it cannot undo the general perception. The political parties of Britain have been undermining morality in politics for decades but they have protected the quality of life of ordinary people to some extent. The novelist and philosopher Iris Murdoch advocates the value of goodness in decision making in her book ‘The Sovereignty of Good’ because it affects all of us. Harvard professor Howard Gardiner champions truth, beauty and goodness as necessary foundations for government to benefit society in the 21st century. Morality is a persistent theme of Pakistan’s Constitution. Unless our politicians clean up politics with a strong lead from the top and lead by example, it is hard to restore the trust of people in democracy.

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Re: Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

When you are making billions, a few minutes of “yes boss” doesn’t really hurt much.

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Re: Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

^^ from your news item:

[QUOTE]
However, no official was ready to share the exact spending done by the government for development projects in Multan and other adjacent districts of the Southern Punjab out of total discretionary funds in the outgoing fiscal year.

[/QUOTE]

If the SC asks them then it will be biased towards PPP.

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Re: Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

One should not blame army when army behave badly with politicians. One should blame politicians for that ... as:

Politicians drive their strength from masses. Masses give them strength if they find politician honest, morally up-right, selfless, hard-working, truthful, caring and most important thing being one who can provide good governance. All this give relief to masses and make their life better. Such politicians earn respect from not only masses but armed forces of the country too. For this, masses as well as armed forces stand up for politicians when politicians get into trouble.

Once Politician starts corruption, nepotism, loot, plunder, lies, theft, mismanagement and exploitation, they lose respect of masses as well as armed forces. Such politicians create a cult around them with their lies and deception. They also buy loyalty of a section of masses by bribing them with jobs and opportunity (at the expense of other citizens). Anyhow, at time of trouble no one stand with them (one can see what happened when Nawaz came back to Pakistan in 2007 and Musharraf kicked him back to Saudi Arabia).

When loot, plundering and mismanagement of such politicians increase to a level where any patriotic person would even kill them if they can, army takes over as people in army are also patriotic citizen of country whose life gets affected due to loot, plunder and mismanagement of such corrupt politicians. Since these politicians are corrupt and have no sympathy amongst masses, when army takes over, citizens who are also desperately upset with these politicians welcome army.

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Re: Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

Politicians do propaganda and many have started believing that Army generals are paid public servant while politicians are masters. Fact is that, both army generals and politicians in government are paid public servants drawing wages from public purse. Only difference is that, people in army go through severe selection procedure and work hard to get promoted where they are. Job of army general is permanent. On the other hand, job of politicians are limited to duration of parliament.

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Re: Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

Moral authority is not part of the constitution & is not required for governance.

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Re: Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

^ you think no moral credibility is required!! ... ask established democracies/people in the West

Where is governance btw?

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Re: Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

According to Pakistani constitution, moral righteousness is constitutional requirement to take part in election. That means, anyone who got elected but have no moral righteousness do not hold their assembly membership legally. Court should disqualify such person. Regardless of court disqualify them or not, it is obvious that they do not qualify to be members of parliament or eligible to hold ministries.

Anyhow, when army generals see their country getting looted and plundered by such immoral thugs illegally holding power, and courtis not disqualifying them, then army generals rightly takes action of kicking these illegal occupants from power. Actually it is their duty to do so to safeguard the country.

For instance, constitution is only valid when country survives but when country is in danger from destructive forces in power then constitution becomes meaningless. Any Pakistani who can act should act in such situation to save the country. Army generals have means to act so when they see that rulers are looting, plundering, and ruining the country than it becomes their duty to act. No constitutional restraint could/should stop them from getting rid of such politicians in power.

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Re: Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

and then let them fly to Saudi Arabia to enjoy a few years in exile and issue NROs later so that they can all come back and continue sucking blood.

Your argument would be valid if Generals could convict criminals or at least bring back the looted wealth of Pakistan. But then, they need their own villas in Bahria town.

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Re: Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

Punishing corrupts is not so easy unless we get a person as army chief who get into power and start shooting any corrupt on perception rather documentary proof. As for documentary proof, politicians do not leave them behind. One can only known about their corruption from their state of living and perceived wealth they accumulate.

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Re: Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

You seem like big supporter of constitution and coups. Which one is it? You can't have it both ways. Btw, moral righteousness and authority and subjective terms. They only have abstract meanings and they are impractical in real terms/life.

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Re: Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

1st define what is moral credibility? Would you say someone with extramarital affair has moral credibility or no? B/c to me personal shorting comings do not impede governance, and if you'r looking for a perfect leader you will never find one.

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Re: Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

I am totally fine with Kiyani's phone call to PM if he was telling about Institute's (Army's) mood/reaction on allegations but ISPR should have never come out with public statement. That was so stupid

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Re: Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

I don't know what is important for you guys morality or constitution.
But i will chose constitution any day, countries run on rules & laws not on the basis of what is right and wrong. Fundamental difference.

imagine a situation PM/President have to make a decision of killing 10000 people to save one million, here goes your morality. imagine a intelligence chief have to order covert killing of hundreds of people on the name of some shyt, here goes your morality.

let suppose tomorrow Nawaz Sharif become Prime Minister, will he posses the proper morality scale (whatever) to receive people trust. here goes your morality, stop pick n choose people - let the government complete its term - let the constituion or the courts make the decision. if government doesn't comply with the court orders let them try under contempt cases. but don't try to influence sitting judges with chanting outside of supreme court and crying out loud on tv programs.

let the people elected government run the system even if all of them are corrupt - its my vote and that 22nd grade general have no right to disgrace it.

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Re: Kayani had 16 min phone conversation with PM on Jan 11

In any other country this wont be a news.
Shows how much influence establishment has on the government.