Karo-Kari

[Das_Reich]

[QUOTE]
So at best you are describing the faulty reasoning of its followers instead of your own. Fair enough. Im glad you've dissociated yourself from an immoral utilitarian calculus that accepts the humiliation, murder, and anonymous burial without namaz janaza of a certain unknown number of innocent women as a lesser evil.
[/QUOTE]

thanks but i never associatted with them, but i also never thought that adultery is are any less of evil than kk

[QUOTE]
That may or may not be true. Again names are not the determinant for the policy of many countries, East Germany is just one example. In practice I believe names merely reflect the mood of the country at the time, and then have a tendency to stick (probably because its logistically inconvenient to change your country's name every few years). I believe East Germany had democratic aspirations at the outset, and likewise believe Bhutto wanted Pakistan percieved as an Islamic state. That Pakistan has 'Islamic' in its name is not a watertight argument for stoning women currently.
[/QUOTE]

GDR was a puppet of soviet regime, what democratic aspirations did they have ? even their official language in army was russian for all practical purposes.Not that FRG was not but thats a seperate issue

Bhutto wanted a name that would please the mullahs and give him access to saudi wahabi money

[QUOTE]
That Pakistan has 'Islamic' in its name is not a watertight argument for stoning women currently
[/QUOTE]

if that woman is guilty of a crime that calls for stoning in shariah why not ?

[ravage]

@Das_Reich

thanks but i never associatted with them,

in which case transfer over my arguments against you to whever it is that justifies kk.

[quote]

but i also never thought that adultery is are any less of evil than kk

[/quote]

that is a value judgement and i wont try to convince you of it. you are free to advocate for laws on adultery separately, and I will not bring in KK into it.

[quote]

GDR was a puppet of soviet regime, what democratic aspirations did they have ? even their official language in army was russian for all practical purposes.Not that FRG was not but thats a seperate issue

[/quote]

we're exchanging posts too quickly. I modified my post to say "or for PR purposes". In east germany's case it was for PR for sure.

[quote]

Bhutto wanted a name that would please the mullahs and give him access to saudi wahabi money u know that bro

[/quote]

Which is what I said right "Bhutto wanted Pakistan percieved as an Islamic state".

[quote]

if that woman is guilty of a crime that calls for stoning in shariah why not ?
[/QUOTE]

you can ask that in a separate thread. i merely said that the name is not a strong argument for it, since even you acknowledge that the name change did not reflect a desire to stone women but a desire to get access to saudi money.

[Das_Reich]

[QUOTE]
that is a value judgement and i wont try to convince you of it. you are free to advocate for laws on adultery separately, and I will not bring in KK into it.
[/QUOTE]

"value judgement" its a part of shariah unanimously accepted by all fiqahs

[QUOTE]
you can ask that in a separate thread. i merely said that the name is not a strong argument for it, since even you acknowledge that the name change did not reflect a desire to stone women but a desire to get access to saudi money
[/QUOTE]

who cares about what bhutto or anyone else desired ?
wasnt pakistan a land seperate for muslims? why was islam invoked by jinnah and other muslim league leaders when they had no intention of applying it in their countries.Why were 2 provinces torn apart in communal riots ?

my question is simple if we say v r muslim v shud be agreeable to shariah laws

if not then we have a definate seperation of state from politics and follow a constitution like turkeys

cant have the best ( or rather worst) of both the worlds

[Das_Reich]

Re: Karo-Kari

in more practical terms ravage you will never be able to gain enough support for anti-kk laws unless we address the other issue of adultery.They might be disconnected in ur eyes but in the vast majority of conservative and at times illetrate gullible masses they are very much connected.And there is some truth in that as well.As not every case of kk is a innocent woman who died for a property dispute or revenge killing.

[Nosherwan]

Re: Karo-Kari

Karo-Kari etc. is a henious crime that happens all over South-Asia despite being illegal.

I was watching an Indian drama (Mitwa: Do Phool Kanwal Ke) and a Hindu Brahmin girl and her low-caste lover were to be stoned to death as decided by the Panchayat (council) headed by her own grandfather who is the head of the village, whilst her uncle gets away with impregnating low-caste girls because he is a boy.

Shame, honour etc. laws can become a curse in South-Asia, this sort of mentality exists all over South-Asia amongst pretty much all ethnicities/religions, it's not just a Paki/Sindhi/Muslim thing.

[diwana]

@Das_Reich

i was replying to this post

what the prophet did is shariah NOT karo kari

and to clarify i dont agree with the half a$$ed attempts at enforcing shariah laws of Gen zia ul haq either.Islam is now complete and either we enforce it fully or not at all. but** karo kari is not the only evil in our society, so i dont understand the dispropotinate attention given to it.**

I know you are in discussion with ravage. Don't want to get in to that at present.

OK. Rijm has nothing to do with karokari and I am sure you will agree.

My only problem with Maverick and you was that you could not just condemn the terrible, horrible crimes in the name of karokari and injustices inflicted upon innocent, even many totally unrelated people (mostly girls or women) who end up paying price for someone else's deed.

Why bring Mumtaz Bhutto or Zia or whoever in to discussion?

Why bring other problems in society to give somehow less of an importance to the problem of karokari?

You mentiojed about zina as a problem. Sure. It needs to be condemned or fixed but with your analogy, prices of common utility items are greater issues and affect majority. So no one should ever talk about or condemn karokari as stand alone problem?

You could open a thread on Zina, Rijm and related topics by the way.

Just condemn the act and be done with. :)

[diwana]

in more practical terms ravage you will never be able to gain enough support for anti-kk laws unless we address the other issue of adultery.They might be disconnected in ur eyes but in the vast majority of conservative and at times illetrate gullible masses they are very much connected.And there is some truth in that as well.As not every case of kk is a innocent woman who died for a property dispute or revenge killing.

What about men? Why they get away?

Provide evidence for your statement.

In law, everyone is innocent unless proven guilty.

These women never had proper law of the land proceedings.

Jirga, tribal punchayat has been given level equivalent to law because of political powers people have.

You are promoting state within state and laws made outside jurisdiction of lawmakers.

[Maverick_27]

@ravage

To be clear, lets substitute words here. After admitting that murdering and mutilating mostly women (more than twice as often as men according to pak senate) is a bad practice, we should look at the other side..

Assuming that were the norm for karo-kari, you would expect that atleast as many men as women would be killed. Again, according to the senate 2800 women and 1200 men have been killed in six years.

Clearly in a majority (ie 1600) of the cases, the scenario you’re painting doesnt apply.

It doesnt always have to be motivated by monetary gains to be ‘generally’ the case that it is.

But even if we grant that a sizable minority of the thousands of women killed over the years were innocent, to you its a cost-benefit analysis?

**** honour. Tribal traditions also include burying your daughters alive. And no its not just in rural areas. From four months ago. Its happened in urban areas, though obviously its easier for these cowards to murder women where there is a weak police/government presence.

Then dont make claims without going through the ordinance. Half-assed comments like this suggest some sort of correlation bw hadood ordinance and these traditions. Tell me something. Did these traditions you speak of begin with the promulgation or repeal of these laws?

There is no ****ing positive correlation/causation between hudood laws and karo kari. The latter precedes the former by centuries. The latter has continued despite your beloved hudood laws. They are two sides of the same oppressive coin though.

On what scale are you measuring this? How much are the 1600 women killed without a partner in crime worth to you.

No not really. The solution to karo-kari is to criminalize it fullstop, close the loopholes these douchebags utilize, and pursue offenders as you would pursue any other murderer. Wont stop it like murder hasnt stopped, but will go a long way.

Any basis for this einstein or did you just pull that little bit of analysis out of thin air?

whatever… karo kari is an importance but the prostitution and adultery is more henious crime. we need to enforce shariah law .

beside karo kari has a positive aspect too considering the weakness in our judicial system, lack of integrity in general public and corrupt police. in karo kari the sardars and mir of the tribes gives their verdict that is unlawful as per constitution but the point here is, we can have two opinion about the legality of the system but i have no issue if the case is proven by the reliable witness and opportunity of being heard is provided to the accused (that is generally the case) the concept of karo kari is very close to islamic concept of punishment for adultery.
2ndly i doubt the veracity of this report u r refering too and its sound rather illogical. as i have heard that honour killing generally ensue the vendetta resulting in many male deaths in the following years y not to include those deaths in to this. there may be other reason since u have access to ur females thats y they come easily under the knife while the male may have a get a chance to escape from the scene. but the ppl following the tribal tradition do take revenge sooner or later. 3rdly since NGO has to mint the money it always come with the fudged data.

on the other hand, unfortunately, police and other law enforcing agencies are not doing much to eradicate the cancer of prostitution rather at time they support this evil.

[Lusi]

Re: Karo-Kari

I can't believe you are actually supporting this pathetic act of cruelty.

[Maverick_27]

I can't believe you are actually supporting this pathetic act of cruelty.

i m pujabi and we dont follow this practice. but i think the nature of this tradition is very much close to the concept of rajam (specially in the case of adultery) and we cas take guidance from this practice to make our laws against zina in line with quran and sunnah. current punisment for the adultery as per law is , imprisonement , that is not accordance with the guidelines of shariah.

karo kari is applicable to both sexes, y only female is discussed........ ( y no one talk about the 1600 men ........... as per the discussed report).

where the karo kari is practiced (like interior sindh) have less ratio of extra marital affairs, adultery and prostitution than where it is not practiced like karachi.

[ravage]

"value judgement" its a part of shariah unanimously accepted by all fiqahs

so what. to quote you, i dont mind being in the minority, even if thats a minority of one.

[quote]

who cares about what bhutto or anyone else desired ?

[/quote]

anyone trying to make the argument that the name 'islamic republic of Pakistan' had any bearing on the issue of stoning women.

[quote]

wasnt pakistan a land seperate for muslims?

[/quote]

Yes. Never in my knowledge has shariah law been one of the demands though.

[quote]

why was islam invoked by jinnah and other muslim league leaders when they had no intention of applying it in their countries.Why were 2 provinces torn apart in communal riots ?

[/quote]

Not because they wanted sharia laws. The subcontinent has a history of communal riots that have nothing to do with wanting to stone women or cut hands or other sharia punishments.

[quote]

my question is simple if we say v r muslim v shud be agreeable to shariah laws

[/quote]

i dont wish to enter the broader discussion on shariah laws. but I find it perfectly possible to be a Muslim without having shariah laws when I live in London or America or anywhere else. Unless I am mistaken you currently live in a country that doesnt have shariah laws too. Why its suddenly necessary to have them when you take that plane to go back otherwise society will necessarily degrade into lynching women on the street is a leap of logic you havent been able to justify.

[quote]

if not then we have a definate seperation of state from politics and follow a constitution like turkeys

cant have the best ( or rather worst) of both the worlds
[/QUOTE]

I wouldnt mind either. I wouldnt mind some elements of religion that everyone wants to introduce. I wasnt for example opposed to NWFP provincial assembly outlawing music in public transport when MMA got elected. I wasnt opposed to those laws being revoked either.

in more practical terms ravage you will never be able to gain enough support for anti-kk laws unless we address the other issue of adultery.They might be disconnected in ur eyes but in the vast majority of conservative and at times illetrate gullible masses they are very much connected.

I disagree that there is mass support for stoning etc. Religious parties arguing for shariah have been very rarely successful. Whatever shariah laws exist today could never have been passed by an assembly, they were only passed by a dictator.

Furthermore anti-kk laws exist, as in anti-murder laws exist. There is no legal sanction for karo-kari. There are certain loopholes that were introduced by zia's shariah laws, for example blood money. What happens routinely is that since these killings are often done by family members the blood money thing is pretty much a get out of jail free card. That coupled with bad policing.

So no, it isnt the case that the laws support kk because the masses see them connected.

[ravage]

@Maverick_27

whatever… karo kari is an importance but the prostitution and adultery is more henious crime. we need to enforce shariah law .

If you’re going to spend your time arguing that karo kari has a positive impact, that it is close to your ideal shariah punishment etc, please atleast have balls enough to not double talk. You dont merely think that ‘adultery is a more heinous crime’, you dont even think it is a crime, really. So give up the pretence.

beside karo kari has a positive aspect too considering the weakness in our judicial system, lack of integrity in general public and corrupt police. in karo kari the sardars and mir of the tribes gives their verdict that is unlawful as per constitution but the point here is, we can have two opinion about the legality of the system but i have no issue if the case is proven by the reliable witness and opportunity of being heard is provided to the accused (that is generally the case) the concept of karo kari is very close to islamic concept of punishment for adultery.

A more persuasive argument against shariah laws I couldnt make if I tried.

2ndly i doubt the veracity of this report u r refering too and its sound rather illogical. as i have heard that honour killing generally ensue the vendetta resulting in many male deaths in the following years y not to include those deaths in to this. there may be other reason since u have access to ur females thats y they come easily under the knife while the male may have a get a chance to escape from the scene. but the ppl following the tribal tradition do take revenge sooner or later. 3rdly since NGO has to mint the money it always come with the fudged data.

You dont read properly. The numbers I cited were from the Pakistan Senate based on registered cases. Due to the nature of this crime, and the powerlessness of the victim a vast majority of them dont result in cases being registered. This is a conservative figure, there have been figures quoted as high as ten thousand per year. Though that number is more likely to be closer to the truth, I didnt use it because it can be questioned by arguments such as you erroneously made.

on the other hand, unfortunately, police and other law enforcing agencies are not doing much to eradicate the cancer of prostitution rather at time they support this evil.

Great. So perhaps you should start by killing a prostitute, mutilating her body, burying her in an unmarked grave. You think it will have a positive impact on society, please demonstrate the courage of your convictions.

@Maverick_27

i m pujabi and we dont follow this practice. but i think the nature of this tradition is very much close to the concept of rajam (specially in the case of adultery) and we cas take guidance from this practice to make our laws against zina in line with quran and sunnah. current punisment for the adultery as per law is , imprisonement , that is not accordance with the guidelines of shariah.

karo kari is applicable to both sexes, y only female is discussed… ( y no one talk about the 1600 men … as per the discussed report).

Again, bad reading skills. 1600 was the number of women who were killed with no male counterpart (2800-1300). The number should be 1500 though.

So why arent people talking about the 1300 men? Clearly because the killing of women is a much more rampant problem, occuring at more than twice the rate. The murder of anyone is a shame, whether male or female.

where the karo kari is practiced (like interior sindh) have less ratio of extra marital affairs, adultery and prostitution than where it is not practiced like karachi.

Sure, just pull stuff out of your behind, with no attempt to substantiate it, and no possible basis for it.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Karo-Kari

[QUOTE]
but I find it perfectly possible to be a Muslim without having shariah laws when I live in London or America or anywhere else. Unless I am mistaken you currently live in a country that doesnt have shariah laws too. Why its suddenly necessary to have them when you take that plane to go back otherwise society will necessarily degrade into lynching women on the street is a leap of logic you havent been able to justify.
[/QUOTE]

a muslim can live in another country without shariah laws but thats not the ideal situation.And I will be the first to admit that its wrong on my part to live in a non-muslim country, although when i live here i abide the local laws fully here.In a non-muslim country its unfair to demand shariah laws but thats not the case for a muslim country.

But just because that condition does not exist now dosent mean we should strive for it in the future.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Karo-Kari

[QUOTE]

so what. to quote you, i dont mind being in the minority, even if thats a minority of one.

[/QUOTE]

my views ( which u might be refering to) albiet in a minority on discussion forums are not uniquely personal but based on the opinion of experts on this field ( muslim and non-muslim)
I dont disagree simply for the sake for it only if I have a good reason behind it.If you can find scholars/expert opinions who will back up a different version of shariah punishment for adultery then I will be the first to congratulate you.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Karo-Kari

[QUOTE]

Yes. Never in my knowledge has shariah law been one of the demands though

[/QUOTE]

You are right but thats the fundamental difference between ur and my thinking, pakistan was demanded a seperate land for muslims for all the wrong reasons as neither jinnah nor any of the muslim league leaders had any intention of applying islamic laws.They only used islam as a rallying cry to infuse hatred amongst the muslims fot sikhs and hindus so they can get the partition done.And hindu leaders did the same.

our loyalty first is to islam or to jinnah ? if its to jinnah why arent u guys brave enough to drop the title "islamic" from the official name and also drop the clause of president PM being muslim cuz frankly thats discrimination if ur not an islamic country.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Karo-Kari

I wouldnt mind either. I wouldnt mind some elements of religion that everyone wants to introduce. I wasnt for example opposed to NWFP provincial assembly outlawing music in public transport when MMA got elected. I wasnt opposed to those laws being revoked either.

thats a good start …so why do u oppose if the national assembly passes a law that does not outlaw kk

in other words in the assembly does not take action against kk you have no problems.

%between%

[Das_Reich]

Re: Karo-Kari

[QUOTE]

Not because they wanted sharia laws. The subcontinent has a history of communal riots that have nothing to do with wanting to stone women or cut hands or other sharia punishments

[/QUOTE]

ravage why do u focus on just these parts of shariah laws

if sharia laws are properly implemented it would also guarentee
1- freedom of speech
2- protection of minorities
3-improvement of law and order
4- elimination of poverty

u cant pick and choose in religion ( although i admit we all do but its still wrong)

[Das_Reich]

I know you are in discussion with ravage. Don't want to get in to that at present.

OK. Rijm has nothing to do with karokari and I am sure you will agree.

My only problem with Maverick and you was that you could not just condemn the terrible, horrible crimes in the name of karokari and injustices inflicted upon innocent, even many totally unrelated people (mostly girls or women) who end up paying price for someone else's deed.

Why bring Mumtaz Bhutto or Zia or whoever in to discussion?

Why bring other problems in society to give somehow less of an importance to the problem of karokari?

You mentiojed about zina as a problem. Sure. It needs to be condemned or fixed but with your analogy, prices of common utility items are greater issues and affect majority. So no one should ever talk about or condemn karokari as stand alone problem?

You could open a thread on Zina, Rijm and related topics by the way.

Just condemn the act and be done with. :)

Because its not a stand alone problem thats why

do u mention food price hikes and not take into account the price of gasoline ?

condemnation is the same atleast from my part .... but ways of tackling it are different i think it should be outlawed under shariah laws and perpetuaters punished as such for murder ( depending on the case) but i would also like to see the same people who are getting so hyped up about kk recognize adultery and prostitution as a big problem and demand similar measures against them.

[ravage]

a muslim can live in another country without shariah laws but thats not the ideal situation.

But one will remain a Muslim. Therefore we can be Muslim and not have Pakistan have shariah laws.

[quote]

And I will be the first to admit that its wrong on my part to live in a non-muslim country, although when i live here i abide the local laws fully here.

[/quote]

I think you'll find that plenty of scholars dont even believe that there is anything wrong in living in a non-Muslim country.

[quote]

In a non-muslim country its unfair to demand shariah laws but thats not the case for a muslim country.

[/quote]

Nobody is preventing you from demanding shariah laws. Im merely arguing that its possible to be Muslim without having shariah laws, and that nothing fundamentally changes in your Islam if you take a flight from Paris to Islamabad and discover that you are in a Muslim majority country that doesnt have shariah laws.

my views ( which u might be refering to) albiet in a minority on discussion forums are not uniquely personal but based on the opinion of experts on this field ( muslim and non-muslim) I dont disagree simply for the sake for it only if I have a good reason behind it.If you can find scholars/expert opinions who will back up a different version of shariah punishment for adultery then I will be the first to congratulate you.

All this says is that we have different basis for the opinions we hold. Perhaps you recall my reasons in other threads concerning these laws. While I am unaware if there is any legal backing for them, I dont feel insecure merely because of that.

@Das_Reich

You are right but thats the fundamental difference between ur and my thinking, pakistan was demanded a seperate land for muslims for all the wrong reasons as neither jinnah nor any of the muslim league leaders had any intention of applying islamic laws.

our loyalty first is to islam or to jinnah ? if its to jinnah why arent u guys brave enough to drop the title "islamic" from the official name and also drop the clause of president PM being muslim cuz frankly thats discrimination if ur not an islamic country

But I dont understand your argument. You are the one who brought in the name, then you said that the name isnt whats important, why did we get a separate country. I am merely following your line of reasoning and showing you nowhere In either our political history or the name change was it implied that we will also be getting or that we ever wanted shariah laws.

That you have a different view of Jinnah is unsurprising, but then you can hardly use his and his party's actions (getting a separate country/sustaining communal riots etc) to justify something they never supported.

thats a good start ...so why do u oppose if the national assembly passes a law that does not outlaw kk

in other words in the assembly does not take action against kk you have no problems.

No I dont support laws merely because they are democratically passed. Its a factor, not the determinant. The music example merely showed that I was comfortable with a hybrid system, and didnt necessarily want an all or nothing approach. I dont think its morally objectionable for a group of people to decide they dont want to listen to music. I do think its morally objectionable if the same group decided for example that they consider NWFP a part of the Hijaz, and no minorities can live in the hijaz therefore they should all be forced out of their homes.

The particular bill you cite was at a time when religious parties had a lot of power, and were tacitly allied with Mushie. Dont think its illustrative of anything more than their brief flirtation with democratic mandates.

ravage why do u focus on just these parts of shariah laws

Because these are the parts of shariah laws that I find objectionable.

[ravage]

Re: Karo-Kari

i should also add that karo-kari is outlawed, it is a form of murder. the particular bill you referenced DR was on closing a loophole exploited by the murderers introduced by Zia, it is not specific to zina or karo kari, it merely allows the killers to forgive themselves. Same thing if your family collectively killed you for any other reason then forgave themselves. That this loophole has support of religious parties is mind-boggling, and illustrative of just how much thoughtlessness people can get away with in the name of shariah.