disproportionate attention? 2800 women killed extrajudiciously, most of them with no male counterpart, and its receiving disproportionate attention?
Whereas adultery/fornication doesnt result in innocent people being killed, karo-kari does. I am much more concerned about murder than I am about the moral vices of others.
Extra-judicial murder is extra-judicial murder. There is no need to validate the murder by speculating on the motives.
We can expect to eradicate the problem of karokari quite easily. It has nothing to do with shariah laws, and everything to do with enforcement of criminal laws effectively. The same ‘tribal’ people when moving to better policed areas are not able to murder/mutilate their women at the same rate.
Simple.
So to be clear, you feel that it is a lesser evil for mobs to gang up on, humiliate and kill a certain number of innocent women. And to continue your analogy, if it werent for this killing and humiliation of thousands of potentially innocent women by mobs and burying secretly in anonymous mounds without their family being able to visit their graves to say prayers, without a namaz-e-janaz, you expect society to have rampant adultery and fornication, and therefore you feel there is a justification for it.
murder and adultery both get death punishment so they are equal crimes
first of all u assume ALL victims are inncocent and secondly you assume that I think karokari is the moral equivalent of shariah laws.Karokari just like fascism is a reactionary approach to problem solving.That does not justify it but it gives us a good insight of how to eliminate it.
thats the problem then we should give up this farce of “islamic republic of pakistan” as it really makes our judicial system look like a big joke.In shariah adultery and murder deserve the same punishment.
it serves as a deterrent just as fascist militias prevented certain countries from falling in communist hands.
Now does this mean I applaud or admire their actions ( fascists) ? no not at all infact they are equally immoral
but i dont think this probelm can be handled by just suppressing one evil and not the other
you misread what I said. adultery doesnt result in the killing of an innocent being, it can atmost result in the death of the adulterer under certain systems of government. karokari can result in the death of innocent women, who are under any system innocent until proven guilty by a judicial system.
you say I assume ALL victims are innocent. Show me were I say that. everywhere I preface it by saying ‘potentially’ innocent etc. Re-read what I wrote.
And no your fascism analogy doesnt work. It doesnt give an insight to how to eliminate it, since other areas/cultures have pretty much eliminated karo-kari like traditions without enforcing shariah laws. The same sindhies arent able to commit murder when living outside their sphere of dominance. You are asserting facts that dont exist, and trying to make causal links that just dont hold up.
thats great , now wud you like the other laws e.g ones against adultery to be enforced with the same efficency ? if you do then we are arguing over nothing we are on the same page.If not I would like to know why not ? esp when its clear that adultery and murder have smilar punishment
You’re entitled to your opinion, and you’re entitled to convince others of it. There will be some we’re not really Islamic, there will be some we’re not really a republic, there will be some that will say we’re not really Pakistan. its just a name not a contract.
my motive in this thread is to eliminate karo-kari. since there is no causal link between the elimination of karo-kari and the enforcement of shariah laws, I am going to limit my advocacy to laws that eliminate karo-kari.
If you want to discuss other crimes where you feel the same punishment is warranted, open up another thread. you have not been able to demonstrate a causal link between the punishment of this crime and the lack of punishment of that one. as an aside, I will tell you though that I dont want to see shariah laws, nor would not want stoning type punishments in pakistan.
nope, given that I dont agree with the shariah laws as currently devised (as i have made known before)
i wud say that it is a contract we are using God’s name but not following his commandments …its like the german democratic republic aka east germany
which had no democracy whatsoever
the same sindhies find a way to live without committing karo-kari while not having shariah law protection against fornication/adultery. whether or not their living this way is farsighted or not is a matter of speculation. that the practice is significantly reduced/virtually eliminated under effective policing restricted to the crime of murder is a matter of fact.
Exactly. The most powerful argument compelling east germany to democratize wasnt “Hey! Our name has democracy in it!”. Names are just names, they can be the result of policy, but policy isnt necessarily based on a name.
one is just a wolf
other is just a wolf in sheeps clothing
“justification” i use for its (kk or fascism) followers , in a purely moral sense their is no justification but for those confronted by evils of stalinsism
im interested in getting to low-hanging fruit. it is straightforward that kk is evil completely divorced from whatever you think causes it. It is therefore straightforward to me that this should be eliminated.
if you want to build a society free from other major sins, debate them and convince people of the merits of your stance on them. no need to muddle them together.
So at best you are describing the faulty reasoning of its followers instead of your own. Fair enough. Im glad you’ve dissociated yourself from an immoral utilitarian calculus that accepts the humiliation, murder, and anonymous burial without namaz janaza of a certain unknown number of innocent women as a lesser evil.
That may or may not be true. Again names are not the determinant for the policy of many countries, East Germany is just one example. In practice I believe names merely reflect the mood of the country at the time or whatever they believe would be useful PR at the time, and then have a tendency to stick (probably because its logistically inconvenient to change your country’s name every few years). I believe East Germany had democratic aspirations at the outset, and likewise believe Bhutto wanted Pakistan percieved as an Islamic state. That Pakistan has ‘Islamic’ in its name is not a watertight argument for stoning women currently.