Kargil; Separating Myth from the Reality

Got it in the mail.

**Kargil; Separating Myth from the Reality
**
By Adnan Gill

Start from the days of the Sir Creek dispute, all the way to the Kargil Conflict; you will find Indians remembering each and every armed-conflict as a glorious victory snatched out of teeth of defeat by the outnumbered brave Indian troops. Neutral observers could disagree and dispute all they want, but to Indians’ credit, they always remember their defeats as ‘victories’. Sadly, in a stark contrast, the self-defeating Pakistanis generously concede their victories to be “defeats”.

Therefore, it is incumbent upon us to separate myth from the reality.

Myth:

  1. Pakistan violated the Shimla Agreement by crossing the LOC.
  2. Indian military won the Kargil Conflict.
  3. Pakistani nuclear weapons didn’t play any role in Kargil or afterwards.

Reality:

  1. India won the Kargil Conflict, strategically.
  2. Indian propaganda machine/Chunkias won the war of minds.
  3. Militarily, Pakistan won the conflict decisively.

For a moment, let’s role back time about 45 years. In their “Official 1965 War History” published by the Indian Ministry of Defense, Indian historians never acknowledged their humiliating defeats at the Sir Creek. In a slight of hand, when recording the tallies of the battle for the Sardar Post, Indians provided exact ranks and numbers of Pakistani casualties, but conveniently marked most of their own casualties as ‘missing’; not dead or POW (p. 25). However, the Pakistanis put the Indian losses around 250 dead. If one is to assume even 1/5 of Pakistani numbers to be accurate, the Indians must have suffered at least twice as many casualties as they marked as missing. Even though, Indians miserably lost on every battle front at the Sir Creek front, including Jungle Post, Clump Post, Sardar Post, Chhad Bet, Sera Bat and Biar Bet, still one would be hard-pressed to find any Indian who would honorably admit their miserable defeats.

One could only wish, like Indians, Pakistanis would also take pride in their glorious victories, instead of disowning them. But then how can we blame the Pakistanis when it took only one letter from the British Prime Minister Harold Wilson for President Ayub Khan to obediently return every inch of land Pakistani soldiers won back with their sweat and blood! Pakistani historians are also to be blamed for leavening historical vacuums, which enemy filled with their exaggerated embellishments.

India first violated Pakistan’s sovereignty and illegally occupied its territory when they invaded and annexed the State of Junagarh and Hyderabad, and then Kashmir. Later, India set the precedence of brazenly violating the Line of Control (LOC). Between 1996 and 1999 alone, the UNMOGIP recorded around 3,500 Indian Violations of LOC. Since signing the Shimla Agreement in 1972, India not only invaded but still illegally occupies 3 Kashmiri sectors that used to be on the Pakistani side of the LOC; namely Siachin, Qamar and Turbat La.

In 1998, India tested its nuclear weapons. Pakistan answered by testing their own. By doing so, Indians practically neutralized their 1/6 numerical and conventional superiority over Pakistan. On the other hand, by publicly going nuclear, Pakistanis gained confidence to calculate, that despite low intensity conflicts in the disputed Kashmir, India will not go to full fledge war. Arguably, Pakistanis were fairly accurate with their calculation; Kargil Conflict, and 2002 border standoff vindicated their calculations. It was the Pakistani nuclear weapons that kept the Indians at bay in both instances, or they would have crossed the Pakistani border to relive the pressure from Kargil, like they did in 1965. At minimum, they would have at least bombed some of the so-called terrorist camps well within the Pakistani territory, by invoking the excuses of ‘preemption’ or the ‘hot-pursuit’.

Following the Indian lead of numerous LOC incursions, Pakistan decided to return the favor. An ingenious tactical plan was pulled out of shelves and was set in motion. The plan called for occupying strategic peaks, on the Indian side of LOC, overlooking a long stretch of the Leh-Srinagar highway (NH-1A). The idea was to secure and hold vantage points overlooking the highway to direct Pakistani artillery fire for the purposes of intercepting and disrupting Indian logistical supply-lines. The highway was/is the lifeline of the Indian troops illegally occupying the Siachin Glacier. A suspension of supplies would have made it very difficult for the Indians troops to have stayed in Siachin.

It was a brilliant tactical plan, but it was a lousy strategic plan. It was missing vital components of support from the political leadership, Foreign Office, and private TV channels – for the PR purposes. The civilians alleged, the military left them out of loop till the last hour, which handicapped their performance. Supporters of military retorted, exclusion of the civilians from the planning phase was necessary to maintain absolute secrecy. While, the critics explained, Pakistani military never trusted the competence or professionalism of the civilians enough to entrust them with the highest level of secrecy. The ferocity of Indian reaction, punctuated by the IAF close-support missions, must have caught the architects of the plan off guarded. Perhaps that’s why the component of air-cover for the rebels was also missing from the otherwise well conceived Pakistani plan. Critics also credit the Indian authorities for managing the dissemination of information with near perfection. Their PR management was credited for shoring up domestic and international support for the Indian reaction, declaration of – supposed – Indian victory; most importantly, for demonizing Pakistan for what India had done in the past.

To the eternal shame of Indian intelligence, the Pakistani advance went totally undetected till May 4, 1999, when some shepherds tipped off the Indians. According to The Washington Post reporter, Pamela Constable, initially Indians claimed there were only dozen or two intruders who were to be dislodged within a week from few peaks. By the end of the conflict, Indians were literally swearing there were at least 5,000 Pakistani rebels commanding the heights. After the conflict, the Indians revised the numbers to 20,000 Indian troops (in the theater) vs. 1,500 so-called infiltrators. However, in 2002, Brig. Shaukat Qadir (Pakistani) claimed, the total number of Pakistani rebels never exceeded 1,000 from all ranks. The ratio of combatants was 20:1 in India’s favor. However, according to Global Security, at conflict’s peak, Indian troop strength in Kashmir ballooned to 730,000. The buildup included a handsome deployment of Indian Air Force personnel who were supporting the operations of around 60 frontline Indian aircraft.

The nature of insurmountable odds faced by the Indians could be judged from the following stats compiled by the Global Security: “The Indian Artillery fired over 250,000 shells, bombs and rockets during the Kargil conflict… the Air Force carried out nearly 5,000 sorties of all types over 50-odd days of operations… The aircraft [were] required to fly at about 20,000 feet [or higher, where] the air density is 30% less than at sea level”. At such dizzying heights, where high winds unpredictably shift velocity every few second, fire-control algorithms simply do not work; neither do the other precision weapons. Very well masked rebel bunkers built on vertical heights were extremely difficult to detect, and notoriously difficult to score a direct hit. So one can safely postulate, the accuracy rate of Indian artillery shells and air-dropped weapons couldn’t have been over 3-5%.

Few reporters captured the enormity of incursion and the frustrating predicaments of the Indian troops. On May 18, the Times of India reported, “Painting a grim picture, the sources said the Pakistani intruders had come 6 km inside the LoC in Mushkoh Valley and the Drass sub-sector, 2 km in Kaksar and up to 7 km in the Batalik sub-sector. The Pakistanis, they said, were holding strategic peaks which gave them a dominating view of the areas around”.

About a week before the conflict ended, when the Indian media was splashing feel-good images of their brave commandos planting Indian flags on peak after peak; in Batalik sector, all the Indians were able to do was reoccupy 1 piddly ridge. Pamela Constable (The Washington Post) reported, “Singh and other military officials here admit their progress has been excruciatingly slow. About 15 miles northeast of here in the area of Batalik, for example, Singh acknowledged, only one of four occupied ridges has been ‘cleared of the enemy’ after weeks of fighting and shelling.” Then she went over the helplessness and embarrassment Indians had to face, “It is evident from the military buildup in this region that India is determined to flush out the infiltrators and make up for the embarrassment of allowing them to sneak in undetected and keep one of the world’s largest military establishments at bay for weeks.”

It was quite evident that Indians were over their heads and nowhere close to a victory. Contrary to what the Indian propaganda machine was showing to the world, on emergency bases, their government was silently importing 3,500 caskets for their fallen men. In reality, Indians were nowhere even close to dislodging more than handful so-called intruders. Ms. Constable also caught their farces, “The rebels penetrated nearly four miles inside Indian-held territory there and still control several ridges beyond [Drass].” She further reported, Indian “Military officials said more Pakistani troops are still lodged in the ridges. They said their positions are so high and fortified that two or three fighters can fend off literally hundreds of Indian troops trying to scale the ridges below and surround them. Indian warplanes periodically strafe the ridges, but officials said most are so steep and narrow that air attacks have only a limited effect.”

Impotency of IAF missions was also quite evident . They lost 1 helicopter and 2 IAF aircraft were shot down on the Pakistani side of LOC. One of their pilots was killed in action and the other was captured by the Pakistani troops. Latter on, he was released by the Pakistani in a goodwill gesture. The Hindustan Times quoted Indian military commanders voicing their frustrations, “Every time they hear our aircraft approach they retreat into the caves… No amount of shelling or rockets can prove effective in such a situation.”

Apparently, not only the Indians were buying the scripted Indian propaganda, so were some of the Pakistanis. Nawaz Sharif’s July 4, panicky rush to Washington dumbfounded many Pakistanis. Clearly, Mr. Sharif was incognizant of the immense advantage the Pakistanis enjoyed in the theater. Instead of trusting his military advisors, when Indians bluffed he folded. In short, Indian bluff of expanding the conflict unnerved Mr. Sharif. When the time came to show spine, he begged Washington to save him. He sold Pakistan’s advantage and honor for President Clinton’s word that he will take “personal interest” in the Kashmir dispute. On July 11, the Pakistani Foreign Minister Sartaj Aziz said, in response to Nawaz Sharif’s appeal, certain groups of Islamic militants have started to withdraw their forces from the mountains. And just like that, the ultimate sacrifices of many rebel volunteers were wasted.

Any statesman worth his salt would have immediately walked out on Mr. Clinton after telling him: Pakistani blood is not so cheap, it deserves at least status-quo in Kargil and Drass. Had Mr. Sharif mustered little courage and waited another few weeks, snows would have returned to the area and India would have been forced to cease military operations. The status-quo would have left the Indian troops sitting in Siachin without any supplies to survive through the next winter.

But unfortunately, Mr. Sharif decided to snatch the victory out of hands of brave warriors, like Capt. Karnal Sher Khan and Hav. Lalak Jan. He sold their blood cheaper than his nerves. Had he showed some spine, today Siachin issue would have been solved and India would have shown higher appreciation for the Pakistani stance on the disputed Kashmir. Most importantly, today most of Pakistanis would have prided themselves for the supreme sacrifices of their brothers.

Even Indian media was smarter than the defeatist Pakistani critics to have seen through Indian establishment’ s lies. Arthur Max, New Delhi bureau chief of Associated Press questioned, “How is it possible that casualties on the Pakistani side were higher – as India claims – when they had all the advantage of higher ground?” He appropriately reasoned, “The Indians should have suffered higher casualties than the Pakistanis.”

The self-doubting Pakistanis also do not understand that victors never switch their winning commanders in the middle of action; but the Indians did. According to the Hindustan Times, Brigadier Surendra Singh, brigade commander of 121 Independent Brigade, and Colonel Ajit Nair, deputy brigade commander, were transferred out of Kargil.

Eminent Indian columnist, Praful Bidwai berated Indian media for their unethical conduct throughout the conflict. He wrote, “The Indian media was on test as to how fairly it would report and interpret. But overall, it failed miserably,” He further added, “The general style of reports was: ‘50 Pakistanis killed and 11 gallant Indian soldiers laid down their lives’. So our boys became dedicated soldiers and Pakistanis barbarians; our leaders are mature politicians and theirs prisoners of dark forces. It is upto the government to say all that. Why should the media?”

The reality proved, despite giving their best, except for reoccupying a handful of peaks in the immediate surroundings of Kargil and Drass, the Indians miserably failed in evicting the rebels. Regrettably, even now some self-loathing Pakistanis take Indian propaganda as a word of bible.

Victories are there to be owned. All we have to do is, have little pride in ourselves first, and the victories will standout like the rising sun.

Courtesy: Defence Journal

Re: Kargil; Separating Myth from the Reality

-> first of all Pakistan's nuclear weapons didn't play any significant role during Kargil war, reason been simple at that time Pakistan didn't have nuclear deliverance mechanism (didn't have any missile nether any aircraft which was capable of delivering their nuke warhead.) also at that time Nuclear warheads was in developing (testing) stage.
-> the reason why India didn't attacked Pakistan after gathering their troops in border for over a month was because India's war doctrine has some lags, which was later removed and new War doctrine was made to increase military preparedness.
-> India made very good decision not to invade Pakistan and maintains its old legacy not to attack any nation.

Re: Kargil; Separating Myth from the Reality

lol , sikkim, hyerabad, goa , bangladesh

Pundit Ji, you should wake up and smell the coffee...

By Sanjeev Miglani
NEW DELHI (Reuters) - Nearly five years after India and Pakistan became nuclear powers, New Delhi is finally coming to terms with what that status means -- the threat of a Pakistani first strike has neutralized its conventional superiority. Analysts say last year's inconclusive military standoff between the neighbors highlighted what many had feared when the two conducted
tit-for-tat nuclear tests in 1998, that India would no longer dare go to war with Pakistan. "India has become a victim of nuclear blackmail," said C. Raja Mohan, strategic affairs editor at The Hindu newspaper. So, unable to go back, India is copying the example of the United States and the former Soviet Union at the height of the Cold War, building its nuclear deterrent to the point of mutually assured destruction so that neither side would dare go nuclear.

Re: Kargil; Separating Myth from the Reality

[quote]
Apparently, not only the Indians were buying the scripted Indian propaganda, so were some of the Pakistanis. Nawaz Sharif's July 4, panicky rush to Washington dumbfounded many Pakistanis. Clearly, Mr. Sharif was incognizant of the immense advantage the Pakistanis enjoyed in the theater. Instead of trusting his military advisors, when Indians bluffed he folded. In short, Indian bluff of expanding the conflict unnerved Mr. Sharif. When the time came to show spine, he begged Washington to save him. He sold Pakistan's advantage and honor for President Clinton's word that he will take "personal interest" in the Kashmir dispute. On July 11, the Pakistani Foreign Minister Sartaj Aziz said, in response to Nawaz Sharif's appeal, certain groups of Islamic militants have started to withdraw their forces from the mountains. And just like that, the ultimate sacrifices of many rebel volunteers were wasted.

Any statesman worth his salt would have immediately walked out on Mr. Clinton after telling him: Pakistani blood is not so cheap, it deserves at least status-quo in Kargil and Drass. Had Mr. Sharif mustered little courage and waited another few weeks, snows would have returned to the area and India would have been forced to cease military operations. The status-quo would have left the Indian troops sitting in Siachin without any supplies to survive through the next winter
[/quote]

If this isnt brainwashing, I dont know what is.
Let me analyse what you have written and make it simple for you to understand. Hope there is still some part of your brain which isnt washed.

1) You mention that Nawaz Sharief bought the Indian propaganda. The Prime Minister of your country was buying Indian propaganda and not believing his own military advisors. Dont you see something fishy. Was there a breakdown in the chain of command. A better plausible reasoning would be that NS was a spy of India.

2) If NS was betraying his country why did'nt step in and hold a coup against him. Mush toppled NS when he felt his position was being threatened.

3) Why did NS rush to Washington. If Pakistan was in a position of strength, it should have been the Indian PM in Washington.Also if I remember correctly your honourable military chief was in the airport to see him off.

4) If any of your leadership felt that Pakistani honour was not cheap, why did they not accept that the fallen soldier were their own. Why was it left to the Indians to give them a decent burrial.

Re: Kargil; Separating Myth from the Reality

[quote]
Eminent Indian columnist, Praful Bidwai berated Indian media for their unethical conduct throughout the conflict. He wrote, "The Indian media was on test as to how fairly it would report and interpret. But overall, it failed miserably," He further added, "The general style of reports was: '50 Pakistanis killed and 11 gallant Indian soldiers laid down their lives'. So our boys became dedicated soldiers and Pakistanis barbarians; our leaders are mature politicians and theirs prisoners of dark forces. It is upto the government to say all that. Why should the media?"
[/quote]

If some idiots come into your home and threaten to kill you arent these idiots barbarians. That is exactly what the Indian media did. We Indians were sure that these idiots were not soldiers because your own military leadership refused to take ownership for these guys. I dont think that there is any country in the world which refused to take ownership of its own soldiers. They were left there to die.

your school teaches you well about your history

Re: Kargil; Separating Myth from the Reality

This guy adnan gill is so clueless. Look at how many times he refers to Pak soldiers as 'rebels'....I have a request to all Pakistanis....please come up with one consolidated version of what you want the Kargil story to be and we will consider it. In that version kindly address:

were they rebels or soldiers?

was it a Pakistan vs India thing or Pak army vs India thing, Rambo Musharaf vs India thing or something else

did Sharief's govt know and approve this or was it a mutinous act by your army without permission

did your PM try to expel Musharaf for this or was Musharaf being thrown out of the plane because he was travelling without ticket

did your PM get slammed by boss Mr.Clinton for even mentioning Kashmir or did Clinton made any promises to the contrary? (before you answer this please do read up on recently released transcripts of the Clinton Sharief meeting)

Guys....even if you are trying to put together a story, come up with something that will pass at least a 1 second surface scan, instead of this silly stuff.

:)............Ahem...............Pakistan does not need to use any soldiers to get back the Saichen Glacier where thousands of Indian Invaders are camped...............We have a trained puppy called HATF - V...............High Altitude Tactical Force...:)


This dog has no bark but watch out when it bites......

Simple Solution to the Saichen Glacier Adventure by the Indian Invaders...

Just send a few of these Puppies over to Saichen and it will turn the whole Glacier into pee right out from under em.......................:biggthumb


Na rahay ga Glacier aur na bajay gi Glacier ki....................:D

Think before you wish … what do you think all that melted pee is going to do … Flood your own land :smack:

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Re: Kargil; Separating Myth from the Reality

very interesting read 5abi :k:

kargil as far as I am concerned was a massive success, even if at the end we didnt gain land. indian casualties (in the order of 10:1), a reminder of how potent pak army can be even when outnumbered and without air support. best of all every day you’d open tv and every indian channel would be crying about “ghus bethiay”

Here is another point of view on same topic

Check .... 3w.chowk.com/ilogs/67171/47736

Kargil-A Military Analysis

15 June 2003

A.H Amin

Kargil stands as perhaps the final military effort on Pakistans part to settle the Kashmir dispute by military means.

Analysis has mostly centred around political aspects of the operation while the military aspects have been largely left to the imagination of the public.Lately it has been claimed that Kargil was launched to bail out Mujahideen as a last resort ! This is an insult to the memory of the Pakistani armed forces "Volunteers" who died in that Himalayan wasteland without a funeral and in circumstances of unimaginable misery !

Kargil operation cannot be understood unless the personalities and motives of the principal characters are examined ! Every action in history is the final culmination of a personality's self perception,ambition and subconscious as well as conscious urges.

In this context the Kargil operation was born out of two key factors ! One was the personality of general Pervez Musharraf and the second was the unceremonial manner in which Nawaz Sharif ousted General Jahangir Karamat Musharraf's predecessor army chief of Pakistan Army.

Musharraf as those who have served with him know which includes this scribe also has always been an intensely ambitious man ! One hallmark of his personality is that he wants to stand out as a great military commander ! Propelled by an enormous ego wherever he served he endeavoured to do something extraordinary ! However fate did not allow him the glory in battle which his other coursemates like shabbir sharif achieved ! In 1965 Musharraf was a subaltern in an artillery unit which saw little action apart from supporting operatiions by indirect fire ! The 16 SP unlike 3 SP which fired on Indian tanks with direct gunsights at Chawinda stayed in conventional artillery role ! In 1971 Musharrafs commando company was not involved in action ! Nevertheless Musharraf compensated for this lack of combat laurels by achieving laurels in army courses and in various command assignments ! His final opportunity came when he ascended to the post of army chief in a situation when the army was in a subservient position vis a vis the civilian head of state , something which was regarded by the military herarchy as worse than blasphemy !

The forced retirement of General Karamat by prime minister Nawaz Sharif was regarded as a personal defeat by the Pakistani military brass and by Musharraf who felt that he would be a far weaker army chief under a strong prime minister who had asserted civilian control over the military machine !

These two factors were the fathers of the Kargil operation ! Ambition accompanied by a perception that the Pakistani public must be convinced that the soldiers were better than politicians.

Kargil at the military level was the brainchild of three men i.e General Musharraf the army chief ,Aziz the then army Chief of general Staff and Mahmud the then corps commander 10 Corps ! Musharraf and Mahmud were motivated by intense ambition to achieve military glory and Aziz was motivated by his Kashmiri ancestry plus military ambition.The person they selected to execute the operation was again one distinguished by out of proportion ambition i.e Major General Javed Hassan , author of a book in 1990s that claimed that India was on its way to disintegration and in which mughal king Humayun was resurrected from the grave to fight at Second Battle of Panipat !

In November December 1998 just one month after Musharraf's elevation to the post of army chief volunteers were asked for at the army level for an operation in Kashmir ! Many thousand volunteered including both officers and men from various units !

At no stage did any Mujahideen enter Kargil ! This is a piece of fiction and has no veracity !

These were attached to NLI units in the 80 Brigade sector for training.The principal idea of the plan was to infiltrate four battalions of NLI (Northern light Infantry) stationed in 80 Brigade Sector into Kargil Heights overlooking and dominating the Srinagar Ladakh road the lone Indian link with the Siachen and Leh Sectors ! The idea being to cut the lifeline of Indian supplies to Leh and Siachen Sectors ! Indian held heights in Kargil were to be occupied in February 1999 while Indian infantry had abandoned these heights at the approach of winter snow as an annual routine since 1948.In occupying the heights no fighting was involved ! The real issue was that of supplying Pakistani troops holding these heights which was far more difficult from the Pakistani side than from the Indian side !

Plans were kept secret and even the Commander 10 Corps Engineers of was not allowed to enter the Operations Room in 10 Corps Pindi.

The distance involved in reaching the heights varied from 15 to 35 kilometres from Pakistan side over mountains as high as 13 to 19,000 feet .To do this each battalion was divided into two parts , one acting as porters taking supplies forward and one half occupying the heights .

The heights were occupied as per the plan but the four units while doing so were severly exhausted ! In March-April the Indians discovered the Pakistani presence and reacted severely ! Severe fighting continued till July once the Indians finally re-captured the heights after Pakistani troops had been left to the mercy of Indian artillery and overwhelming troop concentrations as a result of the Blair House Accord !

A brief military examination of the plan reveals following weaknesses.(1) Failure to assess strategic repercussions of the operation at geopolitic and national strategic level .(2) Logistic failure in incorrect appreciation of supplying the troops . (3) Failure to understand that by occupying the heights the Indians were driven into a corner and had no choice but to retaliate , not for glory as was the Pakistani military's case but for pure military survival . (4) At a more subtle level the use of the Chora-Batalik Sector as a future spring board for Pakistani operations against India was sealed since Indians heavily fortified this sector for any future war.

The Pakistani planners failed to assess that war as an instrument of policy is no longer in vogue at the international level and their temporary military success would only bring greater international censure and a negative war mongering image without any corresponding military gain at the strategic level.

This scribe interviewed a former commander of FCNA and 10 Corps about logistics and General Imtiaz Warraich replied as following :--

" We initiated this operation but failed to support it with comprehensive operational planning and above all buildup for essential logistic support without which no operation can succeed"......'" the principal reason for our heavy casualties and lack of progress was unimaginative and callous logistic operations to support the units".

At one point the sepoys who had volunteered to fight and had come from many other infantry units to the NLI units refused to act as porters carrying supplies over 15 kilometres and were so exasperated that they defied Javed Hassan's personal orders in unit durbars to carry supplies and when Javed Hassn threw his cap on the ground threatened to march over it unless they were not employed as porters ! One such volunteer told this scribe that we had volunteered to fight ,not to act as porters ! The same fact was also mentioned in ISI chief Ziauddin Butt's secret report to Nawaz Sharif prepared by an Engineer officer on Zia's staff in ISI !

The failure to assess the "Enemy" factor was another strategic planning failure at the highest level .I asked General Warraich this question and he stated " Capture of Kargil Heights would totally stop all Indian movement to Leh and Ladakh Sectors unlike Pakistan in Siachen and Indians had no option but to do and die " !

Lust for glory and honour in battle are perfectly reasonable aspirations as long as they are accompanied by commensurate military talent in the generals who are at the helm of affairs ! This was sadly lacking in the Musharraf team who planned the operation. Their egos were many times larger than their real military talent !

By promoting an intensely ambitious man to the rank of army chief Nawaz did a favour which could only be repaid by betrayal ! The plan was based not on sound military reasoning but on burning ambition and an unrealistic desire for glory by men far away from the heat of battle ! No one above major level died , yet in a report to the military secretarys branch Javed Hassan recommended retiring 75 % of officers involved in the operation below colonel level !

The prime minister was not fully briefed because of ulterior motives ! Had the operation succeeded it would have been projected as a proof of Musharraf's Napoleonic brilliance and if it failed as it did Nawaz Sharif would have been made the scapegoat !

The operations planners were distinguished neither by loftiness of thought,nor audacity in the conduct of battle athe operational or strategic level.Thus boldness at tactiacl level was sacrificed because of operational and tactical timidity at the highest level.

No one appreciated that the army men who were employed , and it is a fiction that there was a single Mujahid in Kargil , had flesha nd blood ! These men mourned by a few hundred families were sons husbands fathers and brothers !

The Kargil operation at the military level is a watershed ! Idealism that propelled many hundred to die in those Himalayan wastes is buried for good ! Now there is a new breed which dominates the army ! The ones who aim at going on lush UN secondments or to KESC,WAPDA or as well paid consulatants !

What can one conclude ! It was the human heart that failed in Kargil and this heart which failed was housed in the ribcage of men sitting in the GHQ and not on the rocky pinnacles of Kargil ! Once the supply lines were closed under Indian threat of a counter attack , these brave men all Pakistan Army regulars were abandoned to die , pounded by artillery fire , bayoneted by overwhelming numbers , weakened by starvation ! Who can hear their cries ! Our ears are covered with heaps of lies ! Truth died at Kargil ! What remains is a body guard of lies!

Another one from same source

The Kargil Conspiracy

The Nation 29 May 2003

A.H Amin

There is general consensus on the fact that military juntas are convenient agents of change employed by larger powers to bring desired policy changes in smaller countries.This is more true for Pakistan where the USA has had a record of using the military juntas as agents of change . Ayub was cultivated in the 1950s and proved his worth as USA’s collaborator par excellence in destroying democracy in Pakistan . The Zia coup was US inspired and had complete US blessings since the USA viewed Mr Z.A Bhutto as a dangerously charismatic leader capable of uniting the Islamic/Third World ! Thus Operation Foul Play of 5th July 1977 ! When Liaquat Ali Khan the then prime minister of Pakistan warned the US Ambassador to Pakistan that the Graham Report on Kashmir must be presented in the UN by 15th October 1951 he was assassinated on 16th October 1951 ! Raja Ghazanfar Ali then Pakistan’s ambassador to Iran noted that Liaquat had planned an Islamic conference to discuss Kashmir , Anglo Iranian Oil Company and Palestine !

Keeping this background in mind the fact that a deliberate conspiracy with a design to control and manipulate Pakistan’s geopolitical future with Kargil as the key point cannot be ruled out.It is possible that Kargil may have been designed as the catalyst to create a civil-military political conflict in Pakistan and as a future launching pad of a military coup.

In 1998 Nawaz Sharif often criticized as a man with limited IQ took one of Pakistan’s most decisive strategic command decisions defying USA , not appeasing it as Musharraf took in September 2001 ! It is on record that Nawaz Sharif did not surrender on one telephone call from US president like General Musharraf did and defied US threats not to go on with the nuclear tests despite four telephone call threats from US president Clinton and resolutely went on with Pakistan’s Nuclear blasts ! Recently Dr Qadeer Khan speaking at a function in Karachi on 3rd April 2003 stated that Nawaz even refused an offer of bribe from Clinton wherein Clinton had offered to deposite 100 Million USD in Nawaz Sharif’s personal bank account !

All evidence proves that Nawaz Sharif’s decision to go on with the Nuclear blast was a political decision and the role of the armed forces was merely that of a technocrat consultant ! It appears that from May 1998 the US policy makers came to the conclusion that Nawaz was an irresponsible man and must be taken to task..

By September 1998 it appears that the Americans had succeeded in their manipulations . The then Army chief General Karamat at this stage started pressurizing the political leadership to include the army in the political decision making .

Nawaz had done his homework well.With the ISI firmly under the prime ministers command under Lieutenant General Ziauddin one senior officer Zulfiqar presently chairman WAPDA had been sent to Ukraine to find details of kick backs given to General Jahangir Karamat in the Ukraianian tank deal with Pakistan.Full evidence was prepared of Jahangirs complicity in taking kick backs.Once Karamat asserted his political ambitions Nawaz threatened him with prosecution for taking kick backs ! Thus Jahangir Karamat’s unceremonial exit from power ! USA’s likely agent of change had been removed !

Now comes Kargil. With the appointment of Musharraf as army chief the more Machiavellian geopolitical moves were planned ! Major general Javed Hassan Khan previously military attaché to Washington where many military attaches are successfully cultivated by US intelligence was posted as Commander FCNA incharge of the forces in Gilgit ,Northern Areas including Kargil.The readers may note that this officer presently the commandant of the Pakistan Army’s National Defence College , back in early 1990s made Mughal Emperor Humayun fight in Second Battle of Panipat in his book “India- A Study in Profile” ! The fact is that Humayun was dead while Panipat was fought and Humayun had no connection with Second Battle of Panipat !

The men who planned Kargil military operation using Pakistan’s 80 Brigade to infiltrate Indian positions in Kargil Sector were instruments of a grand conspiracy to destabilize Pakistans political government which had defied the USA and wanted to make peace with India without US involvement !

Ambition of General Musharraf and his team while planning Kargil had infected the entire military thought process ! The Kargil plan was adventurist,superpower manipulated and its intrinsic violence penetrated and cut open the very arteries of the Pakistani state, spurting out in civil military strife and finally a military coup !

The heroes of those rocky pinnacles are all dead ! Sacrificed in vain ! Diabolically launched into the valleys of death by men who now are dead earnest to make peace with India but propelled by promiscuous and unadulterated ambition wanted to sabotage Nawaz Sharif’s Lahore Peace move in 1999 ! Once Vajpayee came to Lahore on Nawaz’s initiatiave in 1999 he was a vampire but once Musharraf went to Agra later Vajpayee was an angel !

At the super power level Kargil was planned with a view to ridicule Pakistan’s political leadership , embarrass the Pakistani prime minister and to create a civil military divide aimed at a military coup in Pakistan ! Why ! Someone may ask naievely ! Because the USA views the military junta in Third World countries as a more reliable collaborator agent of change than a prime minister who repeatedly defies US threats of retaliation and a 100 Million USD bribery offer !

Thus Kargil operation was launched with an ulterior motive to divide Pakistan’s political and military leaderships ! It is an unfortunate fact of history that Nawaz Sharif was mot aided by a good defence analyst team ! Those who were with him and supposedly considered defence experts were either in secret league with Nawaz’s handpicked military man or too naieve to understand the military intricacies of Kargil !

Kargil in the final analysis stands out as the meticulously planned conspiracy catalyst employed to trigger a chain of events that led to the primacy of the military junta on 12 October 1999 !

So far the Americans have succeeded ! The Pakistani Nuclear programme is in safe hands ! Pakistan , the beautiful woman in words of General Habibullah has sold herself to , not the highest bidder , but the only bidder at a relatively low price !

The military junta has divided the society ! Bought the pillars of state ! Balkanised the political parties ! Marginalised the society introducing unjust ethnic domination in the army , reduced the Sindhis into a political minority , pitched Punjab against Sindh by Machaievellian agreement to Thal Canal and is all set to strike a deal with India which would ensure that Pakistan’s military junta is given a permanent share in the political hierarchy simply because it is USA’s best and most reliable agent of change ! Life goes on !

wasn't your mission to gain land? so you're one of those who believe it "operation was successful ... th epatient died".

Oh, hadn't heard the 10:1 thing in a while. So when 200 soldiers surrendered to militants recently, you count it as 2000 or 20? 20 will make it sound even more potent. or why not 1000 to 1? After all, these are inter-galactic troops trained to fire unerringly at UFOs with a 99% kill ratio

i dont know from what angle it seems success to you. In fact its proven itself the biggest blunder and last misadventure Pakistan did. Your number ratio factor doesnt play any role here. When you are on a height then you have advantage against any army in the world . As a matter of fact simple Indian para troopers defeated Pakistani SSG in various Special forces tournaments.

India was against enemies who had benefit of height and still India took care of them all. mind you that major weapons were not even used in this limited war.

-India got to test its new/under development weapon system on terrorists.
-World came for India’s support
-Pakistan lost all its world sympathy
-Didnt impact Indian economy
-Hit Pakistani economy badly.
-Pakistan still lost that land.
-Nawaz was made fun of in DC when he ran over there to save his face.
-It exposed how Pakistani army doesn’t care about the country leadership. and also showed the rift between the politicians and the army.
-Nawaz was deposed, beaten, jailed and deported.
-Well not to mention end of another democratic govt.
-Renewd the patritoriic emotions in India.
-Indian media gained a lot of maturity and even reported from the front.
-It sent all the peace initiative taken by Nawaz-Atal many many years back. it was the time when relations were really looking good.
-Hritik got to act in super Hit Lakshya

And last but not the least:

Kargil is still the part of India and the guy who planned this is now leading worlds most dangerous, dysfunctional democratic country and is also most hated leader in the country.

you tell me my friend.. how can you call it a win.

Re: Kargil; Separating Myth from the Reality

**^ ouch!

ouch! *ouch! *ouch! **

Re: Kargil; Separating Myth from the Reality

^^ oh yeah seems like George Fernandez made money in Coffins in his deepest sympathies. he was too close to Indian dead bodies!

Get Smart : Ouch Again, or Should i open another thread for that!

Kargil was a blunder of Musharraf........He delibrately launched this operation to create an impression that " Look Look we Amry conquered it but the Democratic Govt. of Pakistan gave it away to Indians"

The reality is that the Goof General under estimated Indian Military and climbed up the hill during windters when Indian army wasn't even there. So when the indians came back...they totally outclassed the low tech Pakistani military.

Shame on Musharraf!

Re: Kargil; Separating Myth from the Reality

Pakistan gained nothing..out of it ifact the army used it as an excuse to topple down the legitimate govt of PML.
The agression which Pak army couldn't show against the Indian army..got poured upon the Govt of PML.
Pak Army is good agaisnt civilains of Pakistan but when it comes to fighting India...they become sheeps