^ agreed they moved their forces to the South after the surge, so now why do they cry if terrorist activities take place in Eastern Afghanistan? Most of the high profile AQ leaders have already moved to Kunar and Nuristan as they are more free there as compared to the tribal areas (courtesy of drone strikes), and when ever you get some time do some reading about the Vietnam war and the way Americans treated Cambodians and what were the consequences for the latter. There are a lot of similarities between the two.
You can't be serious. Many of the jihaidis are actually ex-Pakistani soldiers & attacks are often linked to those inside the bases like what happened here. Is the US responsible for that, too?
The "Haqqani" network comprises of all "Afghanistani" citizens, so why is that Pakistan gets the blame of TTP (because they are Pakistani) and at the same time the blame of Haqqani network too. Can we be consistent somehow?
So the proof that America is supporting the TTP is not that captured fighters have confessed to be armed and trained by USA, or Pakistani Intelligence decrypting communications between Americans and TTP, or any evidence found on dead TTP which shows an American hand, or any captured American agents in Pakistan having evidence on them in which they are supporting TTP like Raymond Davis or any other physical evidence which can hold up in a court of law.
But its simply that some TTP have moved to Afghanistan and USA controls Afghanistan and that shows complicity and ignoring everything else that TTP or America has done to each other such as drone strikes, NATO supply convoy attacks, taking out Meshud or TTP revenge for killing Meshud in which 7 CIA officers were killed.
Ok got it. :D
Aah yes we are it is evident that you are totally ignoring the good and bad Taliban story and also the Mullah Omar factor. What do that indicate, please enlighten me. While we are at it how many captured Taliban in Afghanistan have confessed to being supported by Paksitan. Any concrete proof?
How many drone or land attacks have American forces carried out against TTP in Afghanistan. Any numbers any proof. While the American can trace Taliban and carry out drone attacks in FATA it is extremely difficult, nigh impossible for them to trace TTP in Afghanistan because TTP is very sophisticated and American technology cant trace it.
OK got it. :D
So yes you are finally getting somewhere and maybe realising that ground relaities are much different to what you hope or want us to believe.
The "Haqqani" network comprises of all "Afghanistani" citizens, so why is that Pakistan gets the blame of TTP (because they are Pakistani) and at the same time the blame of Haqqani network too. Can we be consistent somehow?
Captain Saaib, you can't deny the fact that Pakistani tribal lands are serving as sanctuaries for global jihadis. So, its Pakistan's responsibility to enforce its writ on these places. Btw, we're not talking about Afghanistan here. We are talking about Pakistan...and its Pakistan that is under attacks from these jihadis.
Captain Saaib, you can't deny the fact that Pakistani tribal lands are serving as sanctuaries for global jihadis. So, its Pakistan's responsibility to enforce its writ on these places. Btw, we're not talking about Afghanistan here. We are talking about Pakistan...and its Pakistan that is under attacks from these jihadis.
We cannot deny Pakistani tribal lands serving as sanctuaries but we can definitely disregard TTP sanctuaries in Afghanistan, correct?
I haven’t ignored it. I have already addressed. If you had read my previous posts. The Good Taliban are those that can still be reconciled and brought back into the Afghan government. Those Taliban are the ones who joined the insurgency out of anger of the incompetence and corruption of the current Afghan government. They can be goaded back into mainstream Afghan society. The remainder are the ones who have no chance of reconciliation. US, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia have made peace overtures to the Taliban to come to some sort of political reconciliation. There is nothing wrong with that. US and Afghan Forces cannot simply kill their way to victory, political framework is needed to achieve peace.
So that addresses the Mullah Omar part of your argument.
That explains why US withdrew from the sparsely populated Kunar and Nuristan areas to concentrate on more populated areas. As for drone strikes, they are not needed, since US controls the Air Space and Apache Gunships are more than enough to deal with these Taliban holed up there. As for number of attacks launched by US in Kunar and Nurisitan province, that informaiton is classified. But you can watch this documentary which shows US forces fighting in Kunar. The Winter War - People & Power - Al Jazeera English
What I have realized that you guys have ZERO proof of Americans supporting the TTP and have concocted this absurd conspiracy theory to explain why Pakistan’s Jihadists have turned their guns on Pakistan.
Ok got it.
I am actually disappointed. I really wanted to believe you guys. I was certain that you might have some proof of American or Indian complicity with TTP, like captured fighters confessing, cellphones with numbers to American handlers, anything that is tangible. But alas, nothing, zip, nada.
Thanks for a great conversation. Just reinforced my views.
We cannot deny Pakistani tribal lands serving as sanctuaries but we can definitely disregard TTP sanctuaries in Afghanistan, correct?
There is no diff between diff jihadi groups. There are no good militants vs bad militants. They are all bad. Maybe if army wasn't playing double game results would be diff & Pakistan would not be war zone today?
There is no diff between diff jihadi groups. There are no good militants vs bad militants. They are all bad. Maybe if army wasn't playing double game results would be diff & Pakistan would not be war zone today?
How can you be so sure? We cannot kill all terrorists, they just displace them, and in our case the border with Afghanistan is porous. We will have to bear the consequences until Afghanistan is stablized.
There is no diff between diff jihadi groups. There are no good militants vs bad militants. They are all bad. Maybe if army wasn't playing double game results would be diff & Pakistan would not be war zone today?
There are hundreds of "may be" for what could've prevented the war zone in Pakistan, we have to deal with it now, both parties (Pakistan, US/Afghanistan) have to act responsibly to resolve this issue, responsibility does not lie on Pakistan alone.
^ agreed they moved their forces to the South after the surge, so now why do they cry if terrorist activities take place in Eastern Afghanistan? Most of the high profile AQ leaders have already moved to Kunar and Nuristan as they are more free there as compared to the tribal areas (courtesy of drone strikes), and when ever you get some time do some reading about the Vietnam war and the way Americans treated Cambodians and what were the consequences for the latter. There are a lot of similarities between the two.
So are you off the view that US is not supporting the TTP and some TTP only moved there because US troops were needed elsewhere?
As for Kunar and Nuristan. There are some elements of TTP, Afghan Taliban and Al Qaeda there. US keeps that area bottled up by Air Power while it deployed its ground forces elsewhere due to the Surge. US simply does not have enough troops to secure every area of Afghanistan. So it deployed forces in more populated areas and removed troops from areas where is hardly any people living there such as these two provinces.
As for comparison to Vietnam, it is a non-starter.
US Bombing of Vietnam in Operation Menu in Spring/Summer of 1970 was absolutely devastating. US dropped more bombs on Cambodia than they done on Germany during World War II. Drone strikes don't even come close. Second of all, Cambodia has a single ethnic group, the Khymer people, while Pakistan is made up of multiple ethnic groups, so a coup that occurred in Cambodia deposing the government by people who were effected by the bombing will not happen in Pakistan.
And besides, Pakistani offensives into FATA have been more destructive, cost more lives, caused mass refugee crisis, because Pakistani Army uses World War II tactics of massed artillery bombardment and air strikes and before sending large number of troops with Tank support instead of utilizing quick reaction forces which other countries have developed.
****KABUL: **The Taliban’s reclusive leader Mullah Omar has issued an Eid message claiming victories on the battlefield against NATO and defending initial contacts, now suspended, with the US.
**
The rare statement by the militants’ leader, said by the Afghan government to be based in neighbouring Pakistan, came on the eve of Eid-al-Fitr celebrations marking the end of the holy month of Ramazan.
**The “unique distinction” of this year’s summer offensive by the Taliban was that it had reached all areas of the country and forced NATO and Afghan government troops to adopt defensive positions, he said.
**
**Omar claimed that a spate of green-on-blue attacks, in which Afghan forces turn their weapons against Nato personnel, was the result of Taliban infiltrating local security units.
**
Nato, which has some 130,000 US-led troops in Afghanistan, has acknowledged a spike in such incidents this summer, but says most are motivated by cultural differences between troops and plays down the role of Taliban infiltration.
A total of 37 foreign troops have been killed in green-on-blue attacks this year.
**In an apparent move to allay fears among some Taliban factions, Omar said in the seven-page message posted on the group’s website that initial talks with the United States “had not meant submission or abandoning our goals”.
**
Instead they had been aimed at initiating an exchange of prisoners, opening a political office and to “reach our goals”, he said, noting that the Taliban had suspended the talks earlier this year.
Omar said the Taliban “will make efforts to reach an understanding with the Afghan factions in due time following (the) pull-out of the invaders”.
Nato troops are due to withdraw by the end of 2014.
The Taliban has always refused to negotiate directly with the Western-backed government of Afghan President Hamid Karzai.
Attempting to counter its reputation for the brutal suppression of women’s rights, Omar said a Taliban government would “give all legitimate rights to women in the light of the Islamic principles, national interests and our noble culture”.
The Taliban were in power from 1996 until being ousted by a US-led invasion in 2001 for harbouring al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in the wake of the 9/11 attacks on New York and Washington.
There are hundreds of "may be" for what could've prevented the war zone in Pakistan, we have to deal with it now, both parties (Pakistan, US/Afghanistan) have to act responsibly to resolve this issue, responsibility does not lie on Pakistan alone.
Thats true. :)
What is needed is for US/NATO and Afghan government to acknowledge that Taliban will part and parcel of a framework of Afghan society. And they have to bring them onboard with a political and democratic framework much like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt or Jamati Islami Parties in Pakistan.
What is needed from Pakistan is to realize that Jihad game has ended. Pakistan cannot project power through Jihad on its neighbours and its time to end this.
You blamed America for not trying a political outreach with the Taliban. When they try and they failed, then you are claiming that why did US tried a political outreach with the Taliban?
Mullah Omar is the leader of the Taliban, just like Hitler was the leader of the Nazis.
But there were Nazis under Hitler who wanted to end the war and make peace with the Allies. That is who US is trying to negotiate with and end the fighting. The so called good Taliban are those that can be brought onto the political framework.
But don’t be too happy. When US withdraws from Afghanistan in end of 2014, and there is no political stability in Afghanistan, it will be nightmare scenario for Pakistan.
A stable and prosperous Afghanistan with minimal Taliban influence is in the interests for all.
taleban are taleban, if there are no good and bad for Pakistan how can they be for Americans? Every one is biding their time and will try to achieve as much as they can in the end. The policies of the Americans are flawed, due to which at the moment I dont see any reconciliation. For the most part taleban are not even in the control of Islamabad now therefore I dont know what role they could play any role in convincing them to the negotiations.
You blamed America for not trying a political outreach with the Taliban. When they try and they failed, then you are claiming that why did US tried a political outreach with the Taliban?
Mullah Omar is the leader of the Taliban, just like Hitler was the leader of the Nazis.
But there were Nazis under Hitler who wanted to end the war and make peace with the Allies. That is who US is trying to negotiate with and end the fighting. The so called good Taliban are those that can be brought onto the political framework.
But don't be too happy. When US withdraws from Afghanistan in end of 2014, and there is no political stability in Afghanistan, it will be nightmare scenario for Pakistan.
A stable and prosperous Afghanistan with minimal Taliban influence is in the interests for all.
The same holds for Pakistan as well, I am sure there would be many amongst the TTP who would like to reconcile and live normal lives. The incorrigible should be isolated and captured/killed especially their higher command. The locals should be provided with opportunities to study and work so as to reduce the recruitment pool available to them.
I agree that stability in Pakistan is directly proportional to the stability in Afghanistan, but as things stand now after the withdrawal of ISAF forces, taleban would have a strong presence in Afghanistan as the whole of Eastern Afghanistan is under their control, and even in the South (Helmand and Kandhar) they have a strong presence. And I dont know what Pakistan can do in this regard.
We are not going to agree even above you are now trying to say that there are good Taliban just because America says so. previously there was no good Taliban and even Mullah Omar is now acceptable.
As for your proofs they are just links to media not actual proofs/ Proves nothing, nada.
Just reinforces my view that once brain washed by American media always brainwashed by them. I am disappointed, thought you would be more balanced after all this time, but alas
You blamed America for not trying a political outreach with the Taliban. When they try and they failed, then you are claiming that why did US tried a political outreach with the Taliban?
Where was the political outreach when Taliban offered to handover OBL to a third country for trial?
You blamed America for not trying a political outreach with the Taliban. When they try and they failed, then you are claiming that why did US tried a political outreach with the Taliban?
Mullah Omar is the leader of the Taliban, just like Hitler was the leader of the Nazis.
But there were Nazis under Hitler who wanted to end the war and make peace with the Allies. That is who US is trying to negotiate with and end the fighting. The so called good Taliban are those that can be brought onto the political framework.
But don't be too happy. When US withdraws from Afghanistan in end of 2014, and there is no political stability in Afghanistan, it will be nightmare scenario for Pakistan.
A stable and prosperous Afghanistan with minimal Taliban influence is in the interests for all.
