judge islam by muslims? why not

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Dear i-n-i,

To understand the real truth of a religion you need to look into the teaching of that religion which in this case is Islam and Quran is the book to read and understand. The teaching of Islam is perfect but when it comes down to practice, people do mistakes and forget what they have read. Your question is very narrow as you only asking for one Religion only. You should be asking this question in broader way like with Christianity, Jews, Hinduism etc.

You can not criticize any religion on the bases of what people do because then no religion will be good for people. But you should look at the real meaning of the religion as every religion came before Islam was emphasizing on one thing or few. When Islam came it is complete way of life. Now it is up to us to live with it out with out.

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Let's judge Christianity. It allows slavery. Don't believe me, I'll give three bible quotes, if needed.

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Its human nature to ‘bring the credit home’. If some ‘Christian’ and ‘Muslim’ indulge in boxing, people make it “fight of the religions”

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but people miserably fail to look into the acts of individuals “how good of a follower” they are.

You can use this analogy to ‘classify’ an educational (or other) institute who ‘prepares’/‘educates’ people to see if it is doing any good or not.

Why are not ALL THE UNIVERSITIES famous/GOOD in world who produce Engineers, Scientists, Doctors etc especially if they ALL are teaching almost the same ‘education’???

The reason is that whoever gets good combination of **‘GOOD students’ **(usually through CONTROLLED ADMISSIONS) and ‘GOOD teachers’ gets its name known to the world.

We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?

[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited August 31, 2001).]

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But according to what everysays here any one can become a muslim. I believe someone said there were two or three things. Like acknolewdging monotheism, some rant about subservience to Allah and something else.

If those are the only things that make you a muslim then of course a lot of schnooks can claim to be muslim, thereby defiling the religion.

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There is two component to your persona.One is your organic being which may be characteristic of you psychologically ,socially ,educationally vocationally ,genetically rascially about which religion & moral studies can only try but cannot GUARANTEED

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http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif

If a harvard graduate happen to end up driving cab,should no body try for admission to Harvard?Do all harvard graduate do better thanCity Colleges?

Yesterday i watched with great interest a documentary about Harai Rama and Harai Kirshna movement. One of the things that stuck out for me beside abuse of children in Gurukuls in India by adults, who are great devotees and presumably religious people, emphasis of Hinduism on poverty and detachment. Every thing material is evil including your own body and parents were encouraged to detach from their own kids..actually give them up when they were young…What kind of religion is this.

Most of the Hindus i know are busy amassing wealth and look down on poor people and instead of helping the less fortunate. They blame everything on Karma in order to relieve their sense of guilt and responisibility towards community and society and perpetuate mistreat of their own people.

While critizing other religions, Hindus should also keep in mind their own religion and how many flaws it has…it is very individualistic and self servicing religion, with concept such as Karma deviced to explain all the evils therefore they are guilt free fleece everybody and enjoy life while ignoring all the suffering around them..

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BUT I DONT THINK ALL HINDUS ARE SADISTIC,CASTIST ,EXPLOITERS.Why .?Because organically you can be a nice person .

Dony blame the environment education always just as dont blame the gene & heriditary for everything

Regards

Woh afsaana jise anjaam tak, laana na ho mumkin
Use ek KHoobsoorat moR dekar, chhoRna achha

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The question I had was in direct response to muslims who say things like "judge islam by itself." i disagree and stated my reasons.

of course, it could be applied to any other religion, but i didnt see any christians, hindus or whatever making those statements on this message board.

also, i believe islam may be the "perfect" way of life for some, but not for all.

that's my main beef with the western religions/cultures "universalism". i disagree with it and think it is gross.

and to FYI, i am NOT a hindu. so i dont know who that was directed to, but i pretty much agree with you.

peace.

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[quote]
Originally posted by i-n-i:
*The question I had was in direct response to muslims who say things like "judge islam by itself." i disagree and stated my reasons.
.....
also, i believe islam may be the "perfect" way of life for some, but not for all.
.......
*
[/quote]

This forum is mainly populated by Hindus or Muslims

This is what Muslims beleive too "Islam is perfect way of life" but with difference "it is for ALL".

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

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[QUOTE]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
INI

Whether you say good or bad things about Islam, it really doesn't matter. It will not make the slightest bit of difference to anyone! Trust me at least on this issue!**

did i say it would? and for you to say it wouldnt is VERY arrogant, because you really don't know....but hey, that's what you think. personally, i could care less. im just sharing opinion, not trying to change yours or anybody else's.

**What impresses me more than anything is that you have become Judge, Jury, Prosecution and Witness all in one.

You have decided to use your own standards, views and interperatations in setting the Agenda. Which no doubt will be 100% biased. If that is your approach, then so be it.**

IMO, we all do that. You, I assume, follow Islam, because you believe it to be the BEST way of life for you (and for all), that is YOUR judgement. If you didnt believe it to be true, why would you be a muslim?

We all have biases and we all use them when discerning what we like, and what we don't, what we think is right, and what we think isnt. That's simply how it is. You are conditioned from birth on up to see things in certain ways. How can it not affect your view of things?

There is no such thing as "objectivity" unless you're dealing with math. And we are not dealing with math here.

**The way to carry out any investigation is to use a Formula.

The Formula you should be applying, (which just in case you was unaware, has been applied since the beginning of time) is as follows.

METHOD.
RESULT.
CONCLUSION.**

i agree, because it's basically the same thing i stated before but in different words.

judge islam (or any other faith/way of life) by it's method (the quran, the principles of the faith, its rules, codes of conduct, etc), its result (the benefit to the individual/society/culture, good or bad? if good is it as effective as other ways of doing things?), the conclusion (my view of the religion, to accept it or not)

i suggest you also add "purpose/objective" to your formula. it would make it easier to analyze the results.

peace.

49

INI

Islam IS the perfect system for ALL mankind and there are no 2 ways about it.

However, the only time it becomes imperfect for the individual, as you state, is when the Human chooses to exercise the gift and element of CHOICE.

They CHOOSE not to follow the Ideology.

They CHOOSE not to accept.

They CHOOSE to go to Mcdonalds!!!!

You have CHOSEN to follow a different Path!

The Qur'aan states:

015.014 Even if We opened out to them a gate from heaven, and they were to continue (all day) ascending therein,

015.015 They would only say: "Our eyes have been intoxicated: Nay, we have been bewitched by sorcery."

042.008 If Allah had so willed, He could have made them a single people; but He admits whom He will to His Mercy; and the Wrong-doers will have no protector nor helper.

Whether you believe or deny the above ayats will be your CHOICE.

And not ISLAMS.

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**
INI

Islam IS the perfect system for ALL mankind and there are no 2 ways about it.**

according to who? isn that what YOU believe?, isnt it based on your view of islam? obviously it is. of course it's a matter of choice. (all i proposed in this post, was a more effective way of making that choice: by analyzing theory and the practical application)

but to me it makes no sense that such a great mighty, god would create this game of life, just so at the end "He" can sentence some of us to hell or heaven simply because we used his "gift" of choice, a "gift" by the way we had no say in accepting. Knowing full well, that not all of us will choose to follow his ways and go to hell.

What's the point? and if Allah knows ALL, doesnt he know the future? doesnt know which individuals will go to heaven or hell already? why go through this drawn out process?

it's sadistic if you ask me, but you didnt, lol

it also seems here that allah's explanations in the quran that you gave to me are counter-intuitive

042.008 If Allah had so willed, He could have made them a single people; but He admits whom He will to His Mercy; and the Wrong-doers will have no protector nor helper.

how can you have choice? then say in the same breath, it's whatever allah wills? and why does allah will at all to create humans simply for the purpose of playing out this game?

it's ridiculous to me, but you are entitled to your beliefs. may they bring you peace and prosperity. the theology of islam does not bring me peace, way too many holes in it for me. it is the main reason i left islam.

but i realize all of this above is OFF TOPIC though. and i apologize right now for that.

my purpose for this post was to show how best to analyze any way of life, including islam: wholistically. if it's for you, then great, if not, well great too. at least you used your mind.

and i think i've said all i can say on that topic.

so peace.

[This message has been edited by i-n-i (edited September 01, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by i-n-i (edited September 01, 2001).]

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[quote]
Originally posted by i-n-i:
**
...
but to me it makes no sense that such a great mighty, god would create this game of life, just so at the end "He" can sentence some of us to hell or heaven simply because we used his "gift" of choice, a "gift" by the way we had no say in accepting. Knowing full well, that not all of us will choose to follow his ways and go to hell........

[This message has been edited by i-n-i (edited September 01, 2001).]**
[/quote]

are you saying that we are "FREE" to do "WHATEVER" we want? we are not responsible to GOD for whatever we do here?

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

52

[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
** are you saying that we are "FREE" to do "WHATEVER" we want? we are not responsible to GOD for whatever we do here?

**
[/quote]

irrelevant question that has NOTHING at all to do with what i said. i said that i didnt get what god gets out of us playing this game. why would god give people "free will" and then ask them not to exercise it? what is the point of that?

but to answer your question, under my understanding of "god", which is that god is immanent and transendent, we are responsible to god: which means being responsible to us: to realize and be your true self is your ultimate responsibilty.