judge islam by muslims? why not

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

why do some muslims try to defend or deflect criticism of islam by arguing that one can not judge islam by what muslims do, that one should judge islam by itself.

using the analogy of a manufacturing environment: islam = procedure/process, muslims = the employees. if there are deficiencies in the end product, then both the procedure/process AND the workers must be analyzed to find the source(s) of the problems, right? you cant just blame it all on the employees, because they may be following the procedure as best as they can and the results are still inadequate. there may be something wrong with them or they may be a flaw in the procedure which prevents it from being implemented correctly regardless of how well-trained, motivated, etc the employees are.

[This message has been edited by i-n-i (edited August 30, 2001).]

2

Excellent analogy. We should be able to discuss anything and everything. Words and sppech does not change anything. Peoples actions do. Tht is why Freedom of speech is such a great concept.

3

My friend,

On this topic you might be given lectures from pages of Quran and definitions of a good, sincere and kind Muslim, but where is he, pls don’t expect to find out!
They do defend quran and pretend to understand.
Islam has created Muslims and you see them in the real form.

Rgds

4

The problem is that this topic is very very delicate and we should handle it with care. Ppl who dont "respect" Islam start insulting and this converts into blasphemy. Now if one side provokate the other or vice versa, then there is no need to discuss. Discussion are useful only if you treat the topic right by sticking to it.
Most of those discussions end into name calling and mockery. Now most of use try to avoid this and stop discussing or accept it as it is.

"kaisay na karta usko main pyar, uski haseen main sukh thay hazaar, bichar gayay hum dukh ki hay baat"

5

[quote]
Originally posted by Ali_R:
*The problem is that this topic is very very delicate and we should handle it with care. Ppl who dont "respect" Islam start insulting and this converts into blasphemy.
[/quote]
*

true

[quote]
*Now if one side provokate the other or vice versa, then there is no need to discuss. Discussion are useful only if you treat the topic right by sticking to it.
[/quote]
*

and if i may add, willing to listen and try to get the other person's point of view, instead of automatically adopting a rigid "i am right" attitude.

i never do that, even though sometimes it may seem like i do, i am always listening. i keep it short and sweet and to the point.

at the end, if people disagree, they should leave it at that. i agree totally with you on that.

also, as far as staying on point, how about answering my question: why is not reasonable to judge islam by muslims AND islam in it of itself? wouldnt that be the rational thing to do.

[This message has been edited by i-n-i (edited August 30, 2001).]

6

I-n-i, that's an interesting analogy. You stated that, "if there are deficiencies in the end product, then both the procedure/process AND the workers must be analyzed to find the source(s) of the problems..." Consider the Muslim individuals (or the employees going by your analogy) who have been introduced in this forum as representatives of Islam - individuals such as Saddam Hussein (SH), a war criminal. If I apply your analogy at this point, then I can reach no other conclusion except that, at some point in the manufacturing environment, the employee (SH) clearly did not follow the mandates of the procedure. How do I state this with such certainty? Because the stipulations in the procedure are unambiguous, they are there for anyone who genuinely is interested to study them. The contrasts between this employee's actions, SH, and the procedure itself, are glaring. To understand why, one needs to abandon all stereotypes, biases, assumptions regarding Islam and study the procedure on its own.

If the comments in your post were accurate, then I'm afraid all religions would be condemned for being "faulty" in their procedure, because all religions have a group of followers who do not obey the mandates of their religion perfectly. With all respect, don't make the mistake of focusing upon the minority of Muslims who go completely against Islamic principles; included in Islam's 6 billion followers there are also 'everyday' Muslims whom no one hears about who try to honestly apply themselves towards Islam.

7

judge islam by muslims? why not<<<

If you judge Christians by Hitlers and Nazis and Hindus by piss drinker Murar jee Desai and many alike then I don't have any problem you can keep judging.

8

i beleive there are "good" people, muslim, non-muslim, black, yellow, brown, and white.....

and yes, you're right, all cultures/religions/spiritual systems are inherently faulty in that they can not produce a totally faultless product: a perfect society.

some do better jobs than others however (a subjective statement by the way). and i personally do not think that islam does that much of a better job than most other faiths or ways of life. that is simply my opinion.

respecting your points, i still dont think you can judge islam effectively in isolation. judge islam by islam and by muslims BOTH, and if it's right/wrong for you, that's for you to decide.

9

[quote]
Originally posted by khan_sahib:
>>>judge islam by muslims? why not**<<<

If you judge Christians by Hitlers and Nazis and Hindus by piss drinker Murar jee Desai and many alike then I don't have any problem you can keep judging.**
[/quote]

i do. i am not a hindu, nor am i a christian.

i dont consider islam, christianity, or hinduism altogether bad systems, but not perfect and not up to my standards either.

10

This is so stupid I don't even know if it makes and sence.

Its like judging US constitution by the crime rate in this country. Its like US constutution sanctions 30+ thousand murders.

11

[quote]
Originally posted by Abdali:
**This is so stupid I don't even know if it makes and sence.

Its like judging US constitution by the crime rate in this country. Its like US constutution sanctions 30+ thousand murders.**
[/quote]

it's exactly like that, what's so non-sensible about it?

to judge AMERICAN society by the constitution and by individuals that live under that constitution is not unfair. it's only way to go about it.

"All men are created equal" but not treated equal?????

To understand the root of the problems in a society, you judge their code of conduct, and you judge them. and find out what's going wrong and why?

[This message has been edited by i-n-i (edited August 30, 2001).]

12

[quote]
Originally posted by i-n-i:
**
i dont consider islam, christianity, or hinduism altogether bad systems, but not perfect and not up to my standards either.

**
[/quote]

Are your standards Perfect?

Even if they are does it give you a right to judge anyone else's standards.

13

[quote]
Originally posted by khan_sahib:
** Are your standards Perfect?

Even if they are does it give you a right to judge anyone else's standards.**
[/quote]

NO probably not, but we have all have our own, whether conditioned by society or not

AND

I have the right to judge other people's standards just like you have the right to judge mine. To judge in this respect, only means to form an opinion. It's not that big of a deal as you long as you dont prevent me from living, dehumanize me or physically attack me.

[This message has been edited by i-n-i (edited August 30, 2001).]

14

I thought u really wanted to know and would really listen. But that's not the case so I don't want to be in a useless thread. adios!

[This message has been edited by Muni (edited August 31, 2001).]

15

[quote]
Originally posted by i-n-i:
** it's exactly like that, what's so non-sensible about it?

to judge AMERICAN society by the constitution and by individuals that live under that constitution is not unfair. it's only way to go about it.

"All men are created equal" but not treated equal?????

To understand the root of the problems in a society, you judge their code of conduct, and you judge them. and find out what's going wrong and why?

[This message has been edited by i-n-i (edited August 30, 2001).]**
[/quote]

I agree. Most religions have fanatic element attached, if followed to letter would result in disaster that is why it is very important to have seperation of state and religion. No religion should dictate how people should behave or live..it should only teach good values and trust that individual with right values will do the right thing. Imposing rules and regularation reeks of distrust and extreme dictatorship.

You are right if the code is wrong individual following it will do the wrong things.

16

[quote]
Originally posted by Muni:
**Lets take ur analogy and define it more clearly. Only then we can talk about Islam.

Point 1:
If you have a defective product, then something is wrong with the equipment, process, or the employee. Lets say we don't know which one of these three is at fault. These three are distinct, one cannot be blamed for the other. They're all connected as "a failed environment" but are separate things.**
[/quote]

that's why ALL these things must be analyzed. I already stated I was for a wholistic approach in regards to judging Islam.

**

[quote]
Using your analogy, it does not make sense to criticize the process for sub-performing employees and vice versa. Process is seperate from employees.**
[/quote]

Yes, it does IF both are related in producing a subpar product. If the process can NOT at all be performed by the employees under any circumstaces, the process is inherently flawed, it can not be implemented, it must be redesigned in order to suit the skill set of the employees. If, on the other hand, the employees are underperforming due to lack of training/motivation or whatever, it isnt being implemented at all, the problem is with the employees AND a plan that does not take ensure proper training/motivation. In these two cases, the result is the same: an end product that is lacking and the process/employees are BOTH faulty. They must either both change to suit one another, or one must change to suit the other.

To answer point 2, Yes, it does. It tells us that Islam, as a process, can not be followed by the individuals it is intended for practically. It has failed because it does not do what it is intended to do as a religion: create a better society/individual.

The process and the employees work hand in hand.

[This message has been edited by i-n-i (edited August 30, 2001).]

17

Finally an intelligent discussion with only one use of the word "stupid" . Thanks.

I am listening and so far agree with i n i 's postion

18

[quote]
Originally posted by i-n-i:
** it's exactly like that, what's so non-sensible about it?

to judge AMERICAN society by the constitution and by individuals that live under that constitution is not unfair. it's only way to go about it.

"All men are created equal" but not treated equal?????

To understand the root of the problems in a society, you judge their code of conduct, and you judge them. and find out what's going wrong and why?

[This message has been edited by i-n-i (edited August 30, 2001).]**
[/quote]

So you are saying 30K homicides are sanctioned by US constitution.

Oh well u learn something new every day.

19

[quote]
Originally posted by Abdali:
** So you are saying 30K homicides are sanctioned by US constitution.

Oh well u learn something new every day.**
[/quote]

no, you just dont get what im tryin to say.

if 30k homocides are occuring, the reason for that may be the incorrect implementation of the constituition or something in the constitution that may promote/perpetuate that behavior (like the legal right to own guns for example)

ALL things must be considered in order to find solutions.

20

[quote]
Originally posted by i-n-i:
** no, you just dont get what im tryin to say.

if 30k homocides are occuring, the reason for that may be the incorrect implementation of the constituition or something in the constitution that may promote/perpetuate that behavior (like the legal right to own guns for example)

ALL things must be considered in order to find solutions.

**
[/quote]

Guns don't kill ppl do. I've owned a gun for 10 years... I can't even imagine making an argument in my defence to satsify a jury why I killed you. Just blame it on the constitution......