In this analogy, can you define all of these:
what is the machine?
who made the machine?
what is the output?
who defined the product/output?
what is the product?
what is the process?
who is controlling the machine/process?
I ask for these defintions.... but in my own opinion there are so many variables... I don't think you can use this analogy to analyse a religion.
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
blah
[This message has been edited by Muni (edited August 31, 2001).]
Muni jee, here is my analysis:
Lets assume that a great industrialist(god) wants to produce the best soap(good muslims)
So he developed the best recipe(Koran Shareef) and gave it to one person(our Prophet PBUH) He did an excellent job and produced a lot of good soap.
But after his demise, inspite of all the training and lectures by the people who understood the recipe, very little good soap has been produced.
So my deduction from this are:
The recipe is great because we know we that our Prophet PBUH was the best.
No one can follow the recipe very well.
or
The trainers are not doing a good job.
or
The training documentation and interpretations of the recipe are not satisfactory.
The fact is that:
The teachers themselves are not able to demonstrate their good soap.
so
We need to modify the recipe to suit the raw materials available these days? At least we will get a decent soap, rather than no perfect soap.
Any flaws in this logical deduction???
ini:
Sorry I didn't read all the responses but I would like to point out something to you.
Taking your example, someone can claim that the manufacturer = God and Product = Peaceful Humans. But we all know that its not working! So that means that somehow God didn't do a good of a job or he had flaws?
Personally, I don't judge other religion by their followers. Though if you do then its your choice of judgement. But then you need to keep the same stick for everyone!
Mr Tanhaa, I already commented above, please read my response above and reply.
This sample 'production' line concept cannot be applied to analyse religion. There are many variables to consider.
We oughta be Changez like, don't we?
[quote]
Originally posted by Changez_like:
**Mr Tanhaa, I already commented above, please read my response above and reply.
This sample 'production' line concept cannot be applied to analyse religion. There are many variables to consider.
**
[/quote]
Its an awesome defence don't blame the guilty but the book.
This whole thread is flawed.
Personally, I don't judge other religion by their followers. Though if you do then its your choice of judgement. But then you need to keep the same stick for everyone!
I disagree, religion can be only judged by its followers, if it has good influence on the followers it is a good religion otherwise it is not very useful.
Yes there should be one yard stick for all religions, i agree with that.
blah,blah,blah...
[This message has been edited by Muni (edited August 31, 2001).]
Please feel free to judge ISLAM by it's followers, the Muslims.
But don't forget to take Islam back to the Creation of Adam and commence, as Islam merely means 'submission to the will of God'.
If this has put your back up against a brick wall, then you may judge the Islam you are talking about for the last 1400 years or so from a general point of view.
This will make life a lot easier for you.
Whichever way you turn, you will see that Islam has prevailed despite the obstacles and minor rotten apples here and there.
If the gift of CHOICE was taken away from the Human, then it would of been very easy to completely flaw any Faith. However, this is not the case.
When you Judge Islam, please state the AGENDA as all judgements are based on initial statements.
Research what Islam is all about.
Use the Qur'aan and compare the Islam you want to judge and see if Muslims on the whole have 'lived up to their part of the bargain'.
It is not so much what you believe in that matters, as the way in which you believe it and proceed to translate that belief into action.
[quote]
So u are saying that if a flawed process along with sub-par employees resulted in a sub-par product then it makes sense to lay blame 100% on only one of these things like the flawed process.
[/quote]
islam aside, that's now it works in industry. rarely is anything 100% to blame. only in the rare extreme exceptions where the machine/process is completely junk, or the employees are complete morons. in most cases, however, it's either the process is not suitable for the given employees and vice versa. you must remember that part of the process, includes of the training and education of the employees.
also the process may turn out a "good product" but if it less effecient than comparable processes, then that is a point of concern as well.
[quote]
Here's an example:
Lets say we are producing a bar of soap. We have the recipe for it and how to make it. Its a flawless recipe with a simplistic process. We have 2 employees "Dumb" & "Dumber" who are a bit lazy and improvise the process and honestly they don't know any better. So our soap ends up smelling foul and a looking disgusting. In this example, it is clear that the sub-par product was the result of the employees. You can't go blaming the "recipe & procedure" because "Dumb & Dumber" decided not to follow it.
[/quote]
that's an extreme case. you think in black and white, im thinking shades of gray.
[This message has been edited by i-n-i (edited August 30, 2001).]
[quote]
Originally posted by sholay:
**
But don't forget to take Islam back to the Creation of Adam and commence, as Islam merely means 'submission to the will of God'.
**
[/quote]
i dont believe that.
also, i judge both by it's followers and the principles that they are supposed to follow.
some good parts here and there, but it falls short, but this post isnt about my personal opinion of the faith.
it's about why IMO, it is wrong and unreasonable to try to deflect criticism of islam and muslims by separating the two from one another. that is all.
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
*It is not so much what you believe in that matters, as the way in which you believe it and proceed to translate that belief into action. *
[/quote]
i agree, beleifs/motivations are meaningless except in how effectively they can get you to do something. only results/consequences matter.
so what im saying is in order to judge a way of life, it is important to analyze both the motivations, as in how effective they are in producing a desired result in practical terms.
Is good Muslim a rarity? It is Tughalak or Khomeiny Islamic world is full of rampage killing.
Ask Taleban, they are doing a divine job.
Does political Islam differ to religious Islam?
Tanha khiyalaat
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif
Is that unexpected.Both Rani & You are non believers So is i-n-i WOW what a co incidence that you join hands with each iother & what a coincidence tat all 3 of you are not agreeing with NOT EVEN ONE BELIEVERS.
TAlk about motive ,biase & conflict of interest .If you ever come for jury selection you will be the first one to be thrown out.
Im not in mood of arguing with every new comer who hasnt read Islam
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/nook.gif
I wish every poster must declare his faith ,so that we can not argue against each others faith.
barque(bijli) yoon akadti hai apne karname pe ke
jaise phir naya hum aashiyaan bana nahi sakte
It is very childish to ask us all the time to read books. People have no time.
Pls show something in practical life!
Muni jee, I am sorry if I gave you the impression that after our Prophet PBUH, there have been no good muslims. No its not like that at all. There have been numerous good muslims. And there are millions of good muslims of whom we dont hear anything about. Some of my best friends are muslims. I am fascinated by our Islamic culture, its accomplishments, its literature , its poetry and tehzeeb.
But, I am horrified by what has been done and is being done in the world by some(not all) of it adherents, proponents and in the name of Islam.
I'm even more horrified when there are many who applaud and defend this behaviour just because it is done by muslims and in the name of Islam.
I'm horrified to hear the sectarian killing in Pakistan and approved by Mullas, who are the teachers fo Islam.
I'm horrified by the forceful implementation of the The Taleban's view of Islam on fellow muslims. So much coercion!!!
So Muni jee tell me, Shouldn't we question as to why all that is happening? Where is this inspiration to cause so much pain in the world coming from?? The proponents say that they are practicing the true Islam!!!
Is this all political propangada by the Kafir news media?
Im sorry I got carried away with the soap analogy, and appeared some what irreverent of Islam. Religious beliefs reside in the heart of individuals as a beautiful emotion. Its not fair to analyse it by the short comings of the mind. Please pardon me on that account.
tanha,
everyone has a bias. what's the big deal?
if you dont like reading the views of biased "kafirs" then do not read the posts.
i actually i havent said one thing "bad" about islam, only that the way it should be judged/analyzed is the same way every other way of life should be, IMO, by judging the code/rules, and judging the individuals who follow that code.
peace.
>>>>I disagree, religion can be only judged by its followers, if it has good influence on the followers it is a good religion otherwise it is not very useful.<<<<
Do you believe that there are no other ways to judge a religion, period. Or judging the followers is it a quick and easy way?
How much free will of the followers of any religion is related to all of this?
And how can one tell that so n so believes in his/her religion because he has firm faith in it but the others because they inherited that from his elders/parents?
INI
Whether you say good or bad things about Islam, it really doesn't matter. It will not make the slightest bit of difference to anyone! Trust me at least on this issue!
What impresses me more than anything is that you have become Judge, Jury, Prosecution and Witness all in one.
You have decided to use your own standards, views and interperatations in setting the Agenda. Which no doubt will be 100% biased. If that is your approach, then so be it.
The way to carry out any investigation is to use a Formula.
The Formula you should be applying, (which just in case you was unaware, has been applied since the beginning of time) is as follows.
METHOD.
RESULT.
CONCLUSION.
However, that is for you to research and take on board.
However, what I will ask is, can you please in the first instance tell us yor Method including the Agenda which is always applied in any Judgements.
Any difficulties, let me know. I can help!