Jinnah's Pakistan?

[Theorist]

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

^How you define secularim also matters. In your opinion it will not work but in mine it will. The latter part of your previous post is exactly what secularism will bring to pakistan.

Like I said before, Islam is not a personal religion, it is the way of life for a muslim. There's a reason why Sharia law has never worked. I am not bashing Islam here but sharia law is wayyy too harsh and just impossible to implement in reality.Secularism has nothing in common with sharia law, so which extreme law would you rather see implemented?

[Enigmatic]

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

@Theorist

^How you define secularim also matters. In your opinion it will not work but in mine it will. The latter part of your post is exactly what secularism will bring.

Latter part of my post can still be enforced with the State religion as Islam. Not pseudo Islam as it is these days.

[Theorist]

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

@Enigmatic

Latter part of my post can still be enforced with the State religion as Islam. Not pseudo Islam as it is these days.

How would you make sure that real Islam is practiced?

[NomiCA]

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

@Theorist

The latter part of your previous post is exactly what secularism will bring to pakistan.

Are you saying secularism ensures success of nations??

[Enigmatic]

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

Real Islam being practised is a state of heart at an individual basis. It's not something that could be enforced or imposed.

My question how would you define secularism and if in a hypothetical situation it is established how would it help the common people of Pakistan.

[Theorist]

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

@Enigmatic

Real Islam being practised is a state of heart at an individual basis. It's not something that could be enforced or imposed.

My question **how would you define secularism **and if in a hypothetical situation it is established how would it help the common people of Pakistan.

Secularism in its purest form cannot be implemented in a country like Pakistan but we can certainly take bits and pieces of it and incorporate that into our government and a lot of issues will resolve on their own. A 10 year old will know what feels right and what' doesn't, do we really need a politician or a mullah to tell us what our rights are?

Religion should remain in mosques and homes as Med911 said. religion beyond that should not matter at all. Pakistani law needs immense amounts of amendments to remove bigotry from our people and our country. we have laws that encourage violence/discrimination against other minorities and women. Why do we allow that? Because Pakistan needs to remain a Islamic republic< this is the answer.... So yeah, religion has failed Pakistan and quite horribly... let's try something that has never been given a chance...

[NomiCA]

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

ok...we separate the religion from the government......... so you think all the problems will go away?? like the bad economy, corruption, incompetence............you think ALL of that is due to the church and state being together???

[Theorist]

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

^ nope, that's not what I said but it will help. When everyone feels equally appreciated for what they contribute to society, they will want to work harder. Case in point, women. Can you imagine the kind of talent, strength, innovative ideas women will bring to Pakistani economy if there's absolutely nothing holding them back - religion, culture, their husbands, etc etc?

when you take the religion element away from the system, all minorities will feel proud to be Pakistanies and hence they will be more productive. It will definitely raise the morale of the entire population! This change will not happen overnight...but it will happen in a few decades - this is the pakistan I dream of...

[IceSoul]

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

@The_Jinx

Agreed 100%. If History is any teacher, the only system that survived for centuries was some way or other derived from Islamic Guidance (The system of Caliphate: although it was corrupted over time but it was still better than any other system for 13 centuries until it was abolished by the enemies through the help of traitors none other than within Muslim nations).

What the hell are you smoking? The caliphate ended with Hazrat Ali R.A. After that, it was just another word for kingship. AS for the end of the "Caliphate" even the Turkish people wanted that crackpot sultan kicked out.

[IceSoul]

Re: Jinnah’s Pakistan?

[quote=“mukobhai”]

@IceSoul

I am not a ‘moulvi” nor do I claim to be an expert in theology. However, I have tried, at my own, to understand Quran and the Islamic laws. In the teachings of this great book there is guidance for each and every aspect of human life, may be it is spiritual, social, political or economical all have been covered by it”

“You have requested me for giving you a message .What message can I give? For guidance and light, we all are blessed with Quran’s loftiest message” (Frontier Muslim Students Conference—April, 1943).

During struggle for Pakistan when Muslims were facing great hardships and victimization at the hands of Hindus and their allies ,Quaid comforted them saying that ultimate success would be theirs if they only sought guidance from the Quran:–“ At present, a battle is going on between the Muslims and the Hindus in the political arena. People ask me as to who is going to be the winner? Only God knows about it. However, as a Muslim I can assure that if we treat the Holy Quran as our final and absolute guide and persevere not forgetting at the same time God’s command that all Muslims are brothers to one another, no earthly power or even their combine, can defeat us” ( Address at a meeting in Hyderabad ,Deccan—July,1946). “ We have been the victim of a deeply laid and well-planned conspiracy…..We thank Providence for giving us courage and faith to fight these forces of evil. If we take our inspiration and guidance from the Holy Quran, the final victory, I once again say, will be ours.”(Speech at a rally at the University Stadium,Lahore-October,1947).

According to the great Quaid, Holy Quran is the “sheet anchor of Islam and fundamental code of life for Muslims “What is it that keeps the Muslims united, and what is bedrock and sheet anchor of the community. It is Islam. It is the great book Quran that is the sheet anchor of Muslim India.” (Speech at ALL India Muslim League Session, Karachi-26-12-1943). “Every Musalman knows that the injunctions of the Quran, are not confined to religious and moral duties. From the Atlantic to the Ganges, Quran is acknowledged as the fundamental code, not only of theology, but of civil and criminal jurisprudence, and the laws which regulate the actions of mankind are governed by the immutable sanctions of the Will of God. Everyone except those who are ignorant knows that Quran is the general code of Muslims. A religious, social, civil, commercial, military, judicial criminal penal code, it regulates everything…. .And our Prophet has enjoined on us, that every Musalman should possess a copy of the Quran and be his own priest. Therefore, Islam is not merely confined to the spiritual tenets and doctrines or rituals and ceremonies. It is a complete code regulating the whole Muslim society, every department of life, collectively and individually.” ( Eid Message to the Nation—September,1945).

Elaborating the role of the Quran and the Islamic State, the Quaid, in his address to the students of the Usmania University, Deccan in August, 1941, said,” In Islam ultimate obedience belongs to God alone.The only way to follow His guidance is through the Holy Quran. Islam does not preach obedience to a king, parliament, person or any institution. The Islamic Government means rule of the Quran. And how can you establish the rule of Quran without an independent state? In this state, legislation will take place within the boundaries drawn by the Quran”.

This scribe has yet to come across a better description of the role and function of the Quran and an Islamic State than the one given above by the great Quaid.

You are calling this man Secular

This just proves tat Jinnah was a Muslim. So am I and many other who want a secular Pakistan. Where did he say that h would create a Shariah bases state?

“People criticize me alleging that I am not well acquainted with Islam. I. have studied Quran thoroughly and many a time. And when I declared that Islamic system would be established in Pakistan, It was not a mere slogan” (Tolu-e Islam-February,1959).

It seems you are not a very good muslim yourself since you seem to be high on something. The Quaid wasn’t alive in 1959.

[The_Jinx]

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

@IceSoul

What the hell are you smoking? The caliphate ended with Hazrat Ali R.A. After that, it was just another word for kingship. AS for the end of the "Caliphate" even the Turkish people wanted that crackpot sultan kicked out.

We both clearly have a difference of opinion. Caliphate did not end with Hazrat Ali. Hazrat Imam Hasan also remain caliph for sometime before he handed it over to Muawiya. The rightly guided caliphate ended in some where around 35 years after the prophet (saw). The reign of Umer Bin Abdul Aziz (RA) also is considered in the pattern of rightly guided caliphs.

I stand on my claim that whatever it was, a kingship, monarchy, but it stood for so long due to the base Caliphate had provided to it.

Whatever and however the caliphate was in 19th century, it was a blessing and this was the reason, Muhammad Ali and Shaukat Ali Johar started "Safe Caliphate Movement" while India was still under the British empire, because they knew abolishment of Caliphate meant a creation of enemy state in the hearts of Jerusalem. Turkish people did not throw the last ottoman caliph on their own, he was thrown out by the conspiracies Lawrance of Arabia and other agents played and used Arabs epecially Shareef Makkah and his sons in Arabia and Mutapha Kamal Pasha Ata turk in Turky.

[smooth_guy]

Re: Jinnah’s Pakistan?

@IceSoul

Did he really? Evidence he wanted the Quran to be law? Or did he tell you this in your dream?

Jinnah wanted a secular state and as long as we deviate from his vision, we will never be able to solve our problems. We’ve tried religion for 64 years and its clear to all but the severely brain damaged that it hasn’t worked.

For your viewing pleasure.

Khilafat aur Quaid e Azam-Dr.Israr Ahmed

Having Quran as supreme law doesnot mean burning temples and churches but protecting them. BTW.

[Enigmatic]

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

for 64 years we have had warped religious reforms and religious amendments which were made in haste not in the true spirit of Islam but rather as a political card...thus the failure!

[psyah]

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

@Enigmatic

I beg to differ on this one Theorist. This wasn't a religious thread neither do I want it to be one .. *but *anybody who firmly believes in aakhirah and the judgement of good and bad on that day would value life much more in its true spirit and would never dream of harming humanity in anyway since we know Huqooq Allah could still be forgiven at the discretion of Allah SWT but Huqooq ul ibaad..rights of the fellow human beings won't be forgiven in any case. Sounds like a fair bargain for someone to be a humanitarian all their life. :)

Peace Enigmatic

The one who defies the Huquq of Allah will find it ever difficult to meet the Huquq ul ibad ... Although you didn't say this I wanted to say that knowing that Allah (SWT) may forgive us for not meeting His rights ... it does not give us license to abuse His rights. To do this would be so wrong.

[Enigmatic]

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

@psyah

Peace Enigmatic

The one who defies the Huquq of Allah will find it ever difficult to meet the Huquq ul ibad ... Although you didn't say this I wanted to say that knowing that Allah (SWT) may forgive us for not meeting His rights ... it does not give us license to abuse His rights. To do this would be so wrong.

I do agree ! But Allah is Rehman and Rahim and His Mercy is endless as compared to our shortcomings! But again He is so just that He has laid so much emphasis on Huqooq-ul-Ibaad and this shows how humanitarian our religion is Alhamdullilah ! :)

Am not saying that Huqooq Allah should be forsaken or anything like that God forbid.

[IceSoul]

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

@The_Jinx

We both clearly have a difference of opinion. Caliphate did not end with Hazrat Ali. Hazrat Imam Hasan also remain caliph for sometime before he handed it over to Muawiya. The rightly guided caliphate ended in some where around 35 years after the prophet (saw). The reign of Umer Bin Abdul Aziz (RA) also is considered in the pattern of rightly guided caliphs.

First, I forgot about the Caliphate of Imam Hassan, my apologies. However, a few month/years doesn't make any difference.

[QUOTE]
I stand on my claim that whatever it was, a kingship, monarchy, but it stood for so long due to the base Caliphate had provided to it.

[/QUOTE]

You are clearly confused. The Caliphate was first in Saudi Arabia, then shifted to Iraq and finally, as the power of the Turks expanded, to Turkey. That's like each most powerful Western country adopting the title of Caesar. First in Rome, then the Frankish kingdoms, then Spain, then Britain and finally America. If all these countries called their leaders "Ceaser" at each point in history when they were the most powerful, it could be said that Ceaser has survived for 2000+ years.

Please read some historical literature other than the Punjab Government History textbooks. The Save Khilafat movement was not only a total failure, it had no legitimate base. Muslims in India. Muslims in India were as concerned with the Khilafat as Christains in South America were with the English monarchy. It was a needless and a total waste.

[QUOTE]
Turkish people did not throw the last ottoman caliph on their own, he was thrown out by the conspiracies Lawrance of Arabia and other agents played and used Arabs epecially Shareef Makkah and his sons in Arabia and Mutapha Kamal Pasha Ata turk in Turky.
[/QUOTE]

Ata Turk is as revered in Turkey as the Quaid is in Pakistan. Please stop listening to that conspiracy-theory-machine Zaid Hamid and open your eyes. Ata Turk literally salvaged Turkey from the wreckage of World War I.

[IceSoul]

Re: Jinnah’s Pakistan?

@smooth_guy

For your viewing pleasure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpIigTPoEFI

Having Quran as supreme law doesnot mean burning temples and churches but protecting them. BTW.

Did I say it did? But will the current extremist Mullahs among us, it would mean burning temples and churches, killing every man who dares to ask a question about Islam, trampling women rights, loss of personal freedoms and much, much more. To me, the scaris part of it is what will happen to women.

Anyways, no bias here. Absolutely none. Just a fanatic Mullah explaining the Quaid’s views.

[psyah]

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

@IceSoul

First, I forgot about the Caliphate of Imam Hassan, my apologies. However, a few month/years doesn't make any difference.

You are clearly confused. The Caliphate was first in Saudi Arabia, then shifted to Iraq and finally, as the power of the Turks expanded, to Turkey. That's like each most powerful Western country adopting the title of Caesar. First in Rome, then the Frankish kingdoms, then Spain, then Britain and finally America. If all these countries called their leaders "Ceaser" at each point in history when they were the most powerful, it could be said that Ceaser has survived for 2000+ years.

Please read some historical literature other than the Punjab Government History textbooks. The Save Khilafat movement was not only a total failure, it had no legitimate base. Muslims in India. Muslims in India were as concerned with the Khilafat as Christains in South America were with the English monarchy. It was a needless and a total waste.

Ata Turk is as revered in Turkey as the Quaid is in Pakistan. Please stop listening to that conspiracy-theory-machine Zaid Hamid and open your eyes. Ata Turk literally salvaged Turkey from the wreckage of World War I.

I sense a different type of sectarian view point present here !!!

[Med911]

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

@Enigmatic

i firmly believe secuarlism won't be the answer to Pakistan's problems. It would worsen them and make an already unruly crowd, completely barbaric.

We need to focus more on social justice and minority rights and tackle the corruption. Secularist approach would be giving corrupt leaders like Zardari an open field to play dirty games and just create a chaos

If it can work in Turkey, and so many other places, why not in Pakistan?

There can be social justice, but here is the problematic part.

In an Islamic state, what is social justice? Is it social justice that all alleged Blasphemers get the death penalty?
Is it Social justice that Ahmadis cant call their mosques, Mosques...

The problem here is that social justice in a religious state, is bogged down by doctrine, and dogma. And where doctrine and dogma come into play, nothing is resolved.

Take the Blasphemy law for example. It has no real logical merit, its obviously a law thats easily abused, it is used to target anyone deemed undesirable, and any logical person would say that at the very least, it needs to be amended. Yet because it has become so engrained in the minds of the people as something holy, you cant even discuss chaging the law, as the assassination of Shaheeds Salman Taseer and Shahzad Bhatti has shown.

No, a state based on religion does not create social justice, it hinders it. In a normal state, that doesnt wear its religion on its sleave, the blasphemy law would have either been thrown out, or strongly amended to be more reasonable. Because that is the basis of a progressive society, one that does what is pragmatic and logical.

[mukobhai]

Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

@IceSoul

[quote="mukobhai"]

This just proves tat Jinnah was a Muslim. So am I and many other who want a secular Pakistan. Where did he say that h would create a Shariah bases state?

It seems you are not a very good muslim yourself since you seem to be high on something. The Quaid wasn't alive in 1959.

Where the hell did he say he wanted a secular Pakistan but yes on many occasions he has said Pakistan LAW will be based on Quran and Sunnah which when combined is know as shariah