Jinnah's Pakistan?

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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I just saw an interesting tweet by a friend of mine.

***Jinnah gave us our country. But now, after 64 years, I would say this country should be what we want, not what he wanted

***How far do you agree or disagree? Should we focus more on WHAT exactly was the concept of Jinnah’s Pakistan or should we ourselves decide what we now want for our country.

What kind of country would you want to see Pakistan as?

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Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

If you read speeches of my Qauid after partition, He wanted to make Pakistan exactly that what is common requirement of every one.
A modern Pakistan for every Pakistani with a social justice.
Do you think something else ?

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Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

Pasha saab, aap Imran Khan jaisi baatain kernay lag gai hain... khair hai? ;)

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Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

QA wanted Pakistan a vibrant and progressive Muslim country where minorities will have equal rights. Having said that after partition (as I heard in one of Israr Ahmed's lecture) he wanted Quran to be the supreme law of Pakistan, that is, a shift from secularism to Islamic society while still not compromising on minority rights.

I think this is the best solution. Minorities should be treated same way as any Muslim in the country. While the society should reflect Islamic values (not like 70s or during Mush), the state should not interfere with any other neighbor countries' matters (Afghania=Zia).

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Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

The kind a country Pakistan is currently that is what i want. Pakistan is huge, and Pakistan is strong, and Pakistan is, in general, united. Our leadership is bad? Yes, but many many countries have had worse. We're doing well. Our leaders are petty and corrupt and incompetent, but they are not oppressive. Our economy is weak? Yes, but there are scores and scores of countries in worse shape. Pakistan has never seen mass starvation. Even after the worse flood of the past 80 years wrecked our agricultural heart, Pakistan has not seen a wave of deaths from malnutrition, has not seen massive food shortages.

Never run from your problems, solve them.

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Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

and Islamic Pakistan and soon it will be

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Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

Heck no. We need to return to want Jinnah wanted. A secular and progressive Pakistan where Islam remains in the mosque, and govt does its job of running the country.

This country is far from what he wanted, and that's the problem. What he wanted is what all god fearing Muslims and all intelligent people would want, a nation where religion is not the business of the state what so ever.

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Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

Did he really? Evidence he wanted the Quran to be law? Or did he tell you this in your dream?

Jinnah wanted a secular state and as long as we deviate from his vision, we will never be able to solve our problems. We've tried religion for 64 years and its clear to all but the severely brain damaged that it hasn't worked.

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Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

Sir Jinnah never used the word secular but he used lot of times Islamic Law and Islamic Principals and terms related to Islam

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Re: Jinnah’s Pakistan?

[quote=“IceSoul”]

Did he really? Evidence he wanted the Quran to be law? Or did he tell you this in your dream?

Jinnah wanted a secular state and as long as we deviate from his vision, we will never be able to solve our problems. We’ve tried religion for 64 years and its clear to all but the severely brain damaged that it hasn’t worked.[/QUI am not a ‘moulvi” nor do I claim to be an expert in theology. However, I have tried, at my own, to understand Quran and the Islamic laws. In the teachings of this great book there is guidance for each and every aspect of human life, may be it is spiritual, social, political or economical all have been covered by it”

(Address at the Usmania University, Hyderabad, India-1941). “People criticize me alleging that I am not well acquainted with Islam. I. have studied Quran thoroughly and many a time. And when I declared that Islamic system would be established in Pakistan, It was not a mere slogan” (Tolu-e Islam-February,1959).

“You have requested me for giving you a message .What message can I give? For guidance and light, we all are blessed with Quran’s loftiest message” (Frontier Muslim Students Conference—April, 1943).

During struggle for Pakistan when Muslims were facing great hardships and victimization at the hands of Hindus and their allies ,Quaid comforted them saying that ultimate success would be theirs if they only sought guidance from the Quran:–“ At present, a battle is going on between the Muslims and the Hindus in the political arena. People ask me as to who is going to be the winner? Only God knows about it. However, as a Muslim I can assure that if we treat the Holy Quran as our final and absolute guide and persevere not forgetting at the same time God’s command that all Muslims are brothers to one another, no earthly power or even their combine, can defeat us” ( Address at a meeting in Hyderabad ,Deccan—July,1946). “ We have been the victim of a deeply laid and well-planned conspiracy…..We thank Providence for giving us courage and faith to fight these forces of evil. If we take our inspiration and guidance from the Holy Quran, the final victory, I once again say, will be ours.”(Speech at a rally at the University Stadium,Lahore-October,1947).

According to the great Quaid, Holy Quran is the “sheet anchor of Islam and fundamental code of life for Muslims “What is it that keeps the Muslims united, and what is bedrock and sheet anchor of the community. It is Islam. It is the great book Quran that is the sheet anchor of Muslim India.” (Speech at ALL India Muslim League Session, Karachi-26-12-1943). “Every Musalman knows that the injunctions of the Quran, are not confined to religious and moral duties. From the Atlantic to the Ganges, Quran is acknowledged as the fundamental code, not only of theology, but of civil and criminal jurisprudence, and the laws which regulate the actions of mankind are governed by the immutable sanctions of the Will of God. Everyone except those who are ignorant knows that Quran is the general code of Muslims. A religious, social, civil, commercial, military, judicial criminal penal code, it regulates everything…. .And our Prophet has enjoined on us, that every Musalman should possess a copy of the Quran and be his own priest. Therefore, Islam is not merely confined to the spiritual tenets and doctrines or rituals and ceremonies. It is a complete code regulating the whole Muslim society, every department of life, collectively and individually.” ( Eid Message to the Nation—September,1945).

Elaborating the role of the Quran and the Islamic State, the Quaid, in his address to the students of the Usmania University, Deccan in August, 1941, said,” In Islam ultimate obedience belongs to God alone.The only way to follow His guidance is through the Holy Quran. Islam does not preach obedience to a king, parliament, person or any institution. The Islamic Government means rule of the Quran. And how can you establish the rule of Quran without an independent state? In this state, legislation will take place within the boundaries drawn by the Quran”.

This scribe has yet to come across a better description of the role and function of the Quran and an Islamic State than the one given above by the great Quaid.

this shows Jinnah Was never Secular nor did he worked for Secular Pakistan and what do you think ALLAMA IQBAL who always stood for rise of Islam will ask a secular man to lead the movement OTE]
You are calling this man Secular :smack:

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Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

My take is that people of different orientations believe Jinnah supported their basis for Pakistan ... the secularists think he was pro-secularist, the religious think he was pro-Islam ... I don't believe it was that clear cut ... I see him to have been predominantly secular but offered empty but sincere promises to religious people promoting Islam in order to get support from the masses.

I don't agree with the way Pakistan was formed ... and quite frankly there is quite a lot of mythology around it ... but the OP has a far more valid question what do the inheritors of Pakistan wish it to be? How can we even entertain the Pakistan of Jinnah when history is laced with so much controversy and confused ideas? Do we even know what "Jinnah's Pakistan" is?

However, firenze has a good point ... the Pakistan of today is the Pakistan we should want ... we need to realise that the good happening in the nation is a result of the Mercy of Allah (SWT) and the bad happening is a result of our own misendeavours.

Pseudo-Islam is not working ... It hurts me to say this but a totally secular country will be more just than what we currently have ... however I strongly believe a true Islamic state will be the most just far more than a secular state. But we need to avoid pseudo-Islam it is crippling us ...

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Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

Jinnah was very clear about the matter of separating religion with state. We need to bring Pakistan back from the hijackers who mixed up state and religion, which was against the vision of Jinnah.

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But we need to avoid pseudo-Islam it is crippling us ...

This.

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Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

i am always inclined to believe that our Quaid wanted more of an Islamic state on the whole but with social justice and minority rights to all. IMO this is the best solution.

Our country is at the moment a pseudo-Islamic state with extremist elements ruining all aspects of administration. By extremist I mean in terms of corruption, incompetence, lack of good governance as well as a little prejudiced against minority rights.

If the Pakistani state resorts to secularist approach all hell would break lose: reason our own majority is not advanced mentally enough to separate religion from the Government.. people find it hard to accept any leftist or different approach. We already have a lot of sectarian differences as well as other controversies. We do not have a check and balance on the capital that is flowing to only a few elites of the country while the rest of the population is submerging beneath the slums of poverty with time. There is already too much of a class difference too.

What keeps us together would be our religion at a state level. Also we know that if we follow the Quran and Sunnah we'd know how just and excellent the system of administration was at the time of Holy Prophet SAW as well as our caliphs. Where the leader was subject to accountability, the poor was provided well, education and acquiring knowledge was encouraged. At the same time, minority rights were safeguarded too. Islam is based on honesty and accountability to Allah SWT as well as the people. It governs all aspects of life from our social to our financial dealings. It's just not confined to a one day service at the mosque only.

It's the corruption and incompetence that we need to tackle amongst our leaders and to eliminate all the prejudice against other religions as well as bw ourselves if we want to progress. Social justice for ALL while the state remains Islamic is what I believe is the answer.

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Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

Agreed 100%.

Islam is not solely for mosque like Christians have made their religion confined to Church alone. Islam is supposed to be part of the collective lives of muslims as well. If we confine God in mosque and do not extract guidance from Him in the matters of state, then, it will only lead to disaster. Socialism was defeated in the cold war. And Capitalism that defeated the socialism, is crippling. The economy world over is leading to disaster.

If History is any teacher, the only system that survived for centuries was some way or other derived from Islamic Guidance (The system of Caliphate: although it was corrupted over time but it was still better than any other system for 13 centuries until it was abolished by the enemies through the help of traitors none other than within Muslim nations).

This is what Jinnah wanted if you really put all of his speeches in the context (even the one that is normally quoted to show he wanted secularism).

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Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

I agree with everything, except the bit about wanting a "True Islam." This is a very nebulous term, and will create more problems in trying to figure out its application, then are being solved.
I mean we all have this vague, abstract concept of what an Islamic state should be, and its different for everyone. But running a country requires real policy, based on concrete ideals and goals, not vaguely understood religious doctrines.
Such debates have been going on in Pakistan since its birth. Its time to stop trying to define this vague concept, and have the govt do what its supposed to do. Pakistan has sacrificed its own stability in trying to create this ideal society. Lets leave the Wise to Wrangle as Khayamm put it, and start doing whats pragmatic and applying common sense.

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Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

The 1947 speech is a CLEAR endorsement of a secular state. I mean how much clearer could the man be...

He said, RELIGION IS NO BUSINESS OF THE STATE...

For god sakes people, the man wrote it on the wall, how can anyone claim he wasn't a secularist!

And if thats not enough (shocking!) just look to the mans life. He was hardly the pillar of Islam, and everyone knew this including the Jamats, which is why they opposed him. But here lies the brilliance of the man. Even with the opposition of the Ulema, and being staunchly secular in all his dealing, he still managed to convince people beyond any doubt, that he was a great Muslim leader fighting for Islam! And they remain convinced to this day.

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Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

^Couldn't have said it better!

Jinnah himself was not a practising muslim by any stretch. He thought beyond religion and secularism. He thought about humanity. We will have the Pakistan we all dream of when we start respecting and appreciating LIFE itself and stop looking forward to reaching akhirah...

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Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

i firmly believe secuarlism won't be the answer to Pakistan's problems. It would worsen them and make an already unruly crowd, completely barbaric.

We need to focus more on social justice and minority rights and tackle the corruption. Secularist approach would be giving corrupt leaders like Zardari an open field to play dirty games and just create a chaos

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Re: Jinnah's Pakistan?

I beg to differ on this one Theorist. This wasn't a religious thread neither do I want it to be one .. *but *anybody who firmly believes in aakhirah and the judgement of good and bad on that day would value life much more in its true spirit and would never dream of harming humanity in anyway since we know Huqooq Allah could still be forgiven at the discretion of Allah SWT but Huqooq ul ibaad..rights of the fellow human beings won't be forgiven in any case. Sounds like a fair bargain for someone to be a humanitarian all their life. :)