Re: Jesus Versus Finality
"If Jesus and Moses had been alive, they would have had no choice but to follow me." (Kathir vol II, p 245 and al yawaqit wal Jawahir, part 2, page 24).
Re: Jesus Versus Finality
In Bukhari, it is reported that in the spiritual event known as the miraj, the Holy Prophet(saw) saw Hadhrat Yahya(as) and Hadhrat Jesus(as) in the second heaven. If Hadhrat Yahya(as) is dead, then Hadhrat Jesus(as) is dead, for the dead do not keep company with the living.
Re: Jesus Versus Finality
And fatherless children are not born, babies do not talk from the cradles, one woman did not give a virgin birth, no one can raise the dead, no one can cure the blind and accroding to you the dead do not keep company with the living…
Wake up before you are plunged where Mirza Sahib is…It’s not a nice place…
Re: Jesus Versus Finality
How does this prove that he(as) is still alive up there somewhere (where is “up there”?)? If you are assuming that he was bodily lifted, and will descend bodily (from where?) then where ever he is (bodily alive) the environment must be one that sustains the physical body. Where is this place? All other prophets are there as well? You are ignoring all the facts and just sticking to just one line that Allah can do it. Of course He can, He can do anything. But the question is did He? Where are your proofs? There are enough proofs in the Holy Quran about him(as) being already dead, I have mentioned some in this thread. You are very conveniently ignoring all those.
Here is a Hadith which very clearly mentions it, how can you dispute this?
**“If Jesus and Moses had been alive, they would have had no choice but to follow me.” (Kathir vol II, p 245 and al yawaqit wal Jawahir, part 2, page 24).
May 10th, 2005 03:50 PM **
Re: Jesus Versus Finality
**[5:117] And when Allah will say, 'O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?' he will answer, 'Holy art THOU, I could never say that which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is Thou alone Who art the Knower of all hidden things;
[5:118] 'I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me - Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou, hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things;
**
So, the Chritians took Jesus (AS) and his mother (AS) to be Gods only after Jesus (AS) death, according to Holy Quran. But if he is still alive, why do christians believe him (as) and his mother (as) to be Gods? Quran says they started calling them Gods after Jesus's (AS) death. Another proof for the ones blessed with open eyes!
The verse proves that:
The corruption of Christian doctrine took place after the death of Jesus(as). If Jesus(as) is still alive, as some Muslims believe, then Christianity must still be pure.
The same Jesus(as) will not appear a second time in this world, as he would then become aware that Christians had now taken his mother as Divine, and could not, therefore plead ignorance in front of God's judgment seat.
Re: Jesus Versus Finality
the verse is about sleep and shows that wafat doesn’t always mean death… in fact its primary meaning has nothing to do with death as i said…
in the verse the pronoun “therein” refers back to the earlier noun “day”… so the verse is saying, “then He raises you up again by day” (i.e. he awakens you from sleep) so that “the appointed term may be completed” (i.e. so you can live out the remainder of your appointed days/life)…
only perhaps if you translate tawaffaytani in the verse to mean “cause me to die” as you have done… whereas Yusuf Ali gives it as “when Thou didst take me up” and Pickthal translates it as, “when Thou tookest me”… so your conclusion is a little premature to say the least
as references go this is pretty ridiculous… i doubt you’ve even seen this statement in the works you pretend to quote from…
by Kathir i presume you mean “Ibn Kathir”… yes?.. if so he has a half dozen published works so to which of his works does your reference “vol II, p 245” refer to?
Ibn Kathir cites the following hadith, “By Him in Whose hand is my soul, if Moses were alive he would have had no choice but to follow me”… (with no mention of Jesus at all)… in al Bidaya wa al Nihaya, vol.1, under the section heading, ‘People have differed over whether angels are superior to humans’
please tell us in which work and in which section your hadith is from!
Re: Jesus Versus Finality
It clearly mentions taking away of the soul while you sleep - you can not take wafat to mean just sleep as we know it.
You twist and twist your faith and “invent” new meanings, and still are left with tons of contradictions. If we take your translation to be the correct on and if he(as) was “taken up” alive, how do you explain Hazrat Muhammad (SA) meeting with him and Hazrat Yahya (John) (as) on the second heaven? Is Hazrat Yahya(as) bodily alive “upthere” as well? are Moses (as), Adam(as) and other prophets he(sa) met on the journey alive as well (bodily)? Or of all the prophets he(sa) met in different levels of heaven, Jesus(as) is the ONLY one alive up there (bodily). I ask this because we already know that all other prophets undoubtedly left there bodies in this world. Jesus(as) is the only one (according to you and the Christians) who was “picked up” with his body, and will descend somewhere in middle east - bodily - on the shoulders of 2 angles (according to your interpretation). This is just one of the many contradictions.
Let’s turn to another one - suppose he(as) is here a second time. Will he be a prophet? if he will be a prophet on his second coming, will he not be the last prophet this world sees?
if he will not be a prophet, but will be stripped of his prophethood after spending 2000 plus years “up there” and will be simple Muslim (as many of you have started to claim) - Quran will still call him(as) a prophet (rasool) of bani Israel, while he(as) is ordinary Muslim. How does he deal with this contradiction? does he(as) “edit” the Holy Quran? or does the Holy Quran gets proven wrong (Nauzbillah)? Everytime you come up with a new interpretation, a new “innovation” you will be proven wrong again and be forced to twist it some more. That is what you will have to do to appose the truth.
Re: Jesus Versus Finality
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 429:
Narrated Malik bin Sasaa:
The Prophet said, "While I was at the House in a state midway between sleep and wakefulness, (an angel recognized me) as the man lying between two men. A golden tray full of wisdom and belief was brought to me and my body was cut open from the throat to the lower part of the abdomen and then my abdomen was washed with Zam-zam water and (my heart was) filled with wisdom and belief. Al-Buraq, a white animal, smaller than a mule and bigger than a donkey was brought to me and I set out with Gabriel. When I reached the nearest heaven. Gabriel said to the heaven gate-keeper, 'Open the gate.' The gatekeeper asked, 'Who is it?' He said, 'Gabriel.' The gate-keeper,' Who is accompanying you?' Gabriel said, 'Muhammad.' The gate-keeper said, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel said, 'Yes.' Then it was said, 'He is welcomed. What a wonderful visit his is!' Then I met Adam and greeted him and he said, 'You are welcomed O son and a Prophet.' Then we ascended to the second heaven. It was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel said, 'Gabriel.' It was said, 'Who is with you?' He said, 'Muhammad' It was asked, 'Has he been sent for?' He said, 'Yes.' It was said, 'He is welcomed. What a wonderful visit his is!" Then I met Jesus and Yahya (John) who said, 'You are welcomed, O brother and a Prophet.' Then we ascended to the third heaven. It was asked, 'Who is it?' Gabriel said, 'Gabriel.' It was asked, 'Who is with you? Gabriel said, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has he been sent for?' 'Yes,' said Gabriel. 'He is welcomed. What a wonderful visit his is!' (The Prophet added : ). There I met Joseph and greeted him, and he replied, 'You are welcomed, O brother and a Prophet!' Then we ascended to the 4th heaven and again the same questions and answers were exchanged as in the previous heavens. There I met Idris and greeted him. He said, 'You are welcomed O brother and Prophet.' Then we ascended to the 5th heaven and again the same questions and answers were exchanged as in previous heavens. there I met and greeted Aaron who said, 'You are welcomed O brother and a Prophet". Then we ascended to the 6th heaven and again the same questions and answers were exchanged as in the previous heavens. There I met and greeted Moses who said, 'You are welcomed O brother and. a Prophet.' When I proceeded on, he started weeping and on being asked why he was weeping, he said, 'O Lord! Followers of this youth who was sent after me will enter Paradise in greater number than my followers.' Then we ascended to the seventh heaven and again the same questions and answers were exchanged as in the previous heavens. There I met and greeted Abraham who said, 'You are welcomed o son and a Prophet.' Then I was shown Al-Bait-al-Ma'mur (i.e. Allah's House). I asked Gabriel about it and he said, This is Al Bait-ul-Ma'mur where 70,000 angels perform prayers daily and when they leave they never return to it (but always a fresh batch comes into it daily).' Then I was shown Sidrat-ul-Muntaha (i.e. a tree in the seventh heaven) and I saw its Nabk fruits which resembled the clay jugs of Hajr (i.e. a town in Arabia), and its leaves were like the ears of elephants, and four rivers originated at its root, two of them were apparent and two were hidden. I asked Gabriel about those rivers and he said, 'The two hidden rivers are in Paradise, and the apparent ones are the Nile and the Euphrates.' Then fifty prayers were enjoined on me. I descended till I met Moses who asked me, 'What have you done?' I said, 'Fifty prayers have been enjoined on me.' He said, 'I know the people better than you, because I had the hardest experience to bring Bani Israel to obedience. Your followers cannot put up with such obligation. So, return to your Lord and request Him (to reduce the number of prayers.' I returned and requested Allah (for reduction) and He made it forty. I returned and (met Moses) and had a similar discussion, and then returned again to Allah for reduction and He made it thirty, then twenty, then ten, and then I came to Moses who repeated the same advice. Ultimately Allah reduced it to five. When I came to Moses again, he said, 'What have you done?' I said, 'Allah has made it five only.' He repeated the same advice but I said that I surrendered (to Allah's Final Order)'" Allah's Apostle was addressed by Allah, "I have decreed My Obligation and have reduced the burden on My slaves, and I shall reward a single good deed as if it were ten good deeds."
Re: Jesus Versus Finality
^
and the point is?
Re: Jesus Versus Finality
you had earlier written, “When God is the subject and a human is the object, tawaffa means to take away the soul, i.e, death”… (my emphasis)
the point is it doesn’t equate to death in every context, as 6:60 shows
i’ll be only too happy to discuss your other queries if you can first reply to my earlier question of where that “Kathir” reference is from please
Re: Jesus Versus Finality
Read above, this was the point:
You twist and twist your faith and “invent” new meanings, and still are left with tons of contradictions. If we take your translation to be the correct on and if he(as) was “taken up” alive, how do you explain Hazrat Muhammad (SA) meeting with him and Hazrat Yahya (John) (as) on the second heaven? Is Hazrat Yahya(as) bodily alive “upthere” as well? are Moses (as), Adam(as) and other prophets he(sa) met on the journey alive as well (bodily)? Or of all the prophets he(sa) met in different levels of heaven, Jesus(as) is the ONLY one alive up there (bodily). I ask this because we already know that all other prophets undoubtedly left there bodies in this world. Jesus(as) is the only one (according to you and the Christians) who was “picked up” with his body, and will descend somewhere in middle east - bodily - on the shoulders of 2 angles (according to your interpretation). This is just one of the many contradictions.
Re: Jesus Versus Finality
^ you need to look up the meaning of the word "contradiction"... what you are in fact describing seems to equate to a "difference", not a contradiction
Re: Jesus Versus Finality
Nope, not differences, but contradictions. Your story of Jesus’s (as) 2nd comming is inconsistent, devoid of logic and rational, and contradicts the Holy Quran that you claim to believe. Your interpratation (translation) of the Holy Quran is not proper, and there are many holes in your story.
Re: Jesus Versus Finality
so Arwaah of Prophets and a live body of a prophet can't stay at the same place up in heavens?
Now that is a great piece of knowledge but I never heard of such a self-made assumption without any reference to back it up.
Thanks.
Re: Jesus Versus Finality
It seems according to you he can. Every single piece of evidence is pointing towards the fact that Jesus (AS) is dead. I do not know why you refuse to see it. The translations of the Holy Quran that you do have been proven wrong since they contradict other verses of Quran and Ahadith. For instance:
**[5:117] And when Allah will say, 'O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?’ he will answer, 'Holy art THOU, I could never say that which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is Thou alone Who art the Knower of all hidden things;
[5:118] 'I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me - Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou, hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things; **
So, the Chritians took Jesus (AS) and his mother (AS) to be Gods only after Jesus (AS) death, according to Holy Quran. But if he is still alive, why do christians believe him (as) and his mother (as) to be Gods? Quran says they started calling them Gods after Jesus’s (AS) death. Another proof for the ones blessed with open eyes!
The verse proves that:
The corruption of Christian doctrine took place after the death of Jesus(as). If Jesus(as) is still alive, as some Muslims believe, then Christianity must still be pure.
The same Jesus(as) will not appear a second time in this world, as he would then become aware that Christians had now taken his mother as Divine, and could not, therefore plead ignorance in front of God’s judgment seat.
Re: Jesus Versus Finality
You are missing the context of that ayah.
This ayah talks about the conversation of Jesus with ALLAH on the day of judgement.
Now Day of Judgement hasn’t come yet and Jesus:as: will return back and will die anyway before that.
So here goes whole of the argument.
Re: Jesus Versus Finality
If he(as) comes back and sees that Christians have declared him(as) and his mother as “Gods”, how will he(as) plead ignorance to this fact having seen what christians believe? Here, read the whole dialog again:
**[5:117] And when Allah will say, 'O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, ‘Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?’ he will answer, 'Holy art THOU, I could never say that which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is Thou alone Who art the Knower of all hidden things;
[5:118] 'I said nothing to them except that which Thou didst command me - Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them, but since Thou didst cause me to die, Thou, hast been the Watcher over them, and Thou art Witness over all things; **
The verse proves that:
The corruption of Christian doctrine took place after the death of Jesus(as). If Jesus(as) is still alive, as some Muslims believe, then Christianity must still be pure.
The same Jesus(as) will not appear a second time in this world, as he would then become aware that Christians had now taken his mother as Divine, and could not, therefore plead ignorance in front of God’s judgment seat.
Re: Jesus Versus Finality
Here is where I read this from (I can try and find the origional book and qoute directly from there if you like)
http://www.alislam.org/library/links/Jesus_death/3_Hadith.html
Re: Jesus Versus Finality
As long as he remained among them, in his ummah, as the prophet of that time.
Re: Jesus Versus Finality
That is a Qadiyani source and a direct reference is more reliable for us.