[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
but for Jesus (as) it is said "Allah raised him toward himself"....
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And where is Allah? everywhere? if so, is jesus everywhere?
lol…Allah is Allah :swt: and Jesus is Jesus :as:…
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
PA dont always stop at 4:157, read furher on....
Quran 4:158
*But Allah raised him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise. *
now how he was raised (by angels, by birds, by transforming him into superman, by giving him an aeroplane ticket, by providing him with Apollo 11 or any other thing) is left to ur imagination....
[/QUOTE]
Left to your imagination ??? What kind of uneducated remark is that ??
Why would ALlah leave things to the imagination of mankind ? To confuse them even more ? I highly doubt it my friend. This just shows that you are reading the whole quran based upon YOUR imagination, which is a ridiculous argument.
Every female possess testosterone, if they didn't, they would have no hair. And self fertilisation is entirely possible too, but it is improbable (i.e. unlikely). Take seedless grapes, they are produced from a single parent. Last year, New Scientist Issue of May recalls how a dolphin was born from a single parent and it has been shown that rats can be born through single parents.
Whenever a volcano erupts, there is a building of tension which causes they earth to sink and thus a retreat of water. In the time of Moses, there was a volcano called San marini in the mediterranean and the waves through the water it sent were in the direction of Egypt. So Allah did not let Moses come to the river, until the time that the river was just about to flood so that the Pharoah could be destroyed.
Lastly, Rasullah's journey was a mirage, a dream, symbolic in every way that he had reached the highest position attainable by man.
If you believe that this was physical, then I have a question. It is universally accepted that the Holy Prophet (saw) travelled to the heighest level of heaven. There according to Surah Al-najm, he saw a lote-tree:
14. Near the Lote-tree beyond which none may pass
And in this, my question is, what was a lote tree doing on the heighest level of heaven, where not even Gibrael (as) had been? Why was this tree closer to Allah than the Holy Prophet (saw)?
The answer is, that in arab countries, this is a fencing agent, and the Holy Prophet reached a level where he was the closest to the boundary to Allah. Thus, how can such a symbol be treated as literally happening?
^useless discussion put forward....
what u r suggesting is that Allah can do nothing that science denies????
and what does anything being close to Allah have to do with the status of it????
Gabriel (as) goes close to Allah to where none of the prophets besides Muhammad (saw) went, so that does not mean that Gabriel (as) is ranked higher than the prophets....
**Allahu allathee rafaAAa alssamawati bighayri AAamadin tarawnaha thumma istawa AAala alAAarshi wasakhkhara alshshamsa waalqamara kullun yajree liajalin musamman yudabbiru alamra yufassilu alayati laAAallakum biliqai rabbikum tooqinoona
13:2 Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly established on the throne (of authority); He has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law)! Each one runs (its course) for a term appointed. He doth regulate all affairs, explaining the signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord. **
Surah Rehman says: "ashams uwal qamarubi husban" and these two reference show that Allah sets laws and he does not break his laws. We is it that nothing can fly on it's own? These are rules that cannot be denied? If he wants to go to the fourth heaven, it is millions of light years away, and even sitting on light or at the speed of light, it would take him 2 million years to go there and come back. What will he breath? What will he eat? How will he fast?
But these things are only understood by the men who are reffered in the qu'ran as "al-bab" in the following verse for example:
2:269 He granteth wisdom to whom He pleaseth; and he to whom wisdom is granted receiveth indeed a benefit overflowing; but none will grasp the Message but men of understanding.
How can anything be understood without a clear law? Are you implying that Allah is one who breaks his own laws? If so, how can he be the perfect judge?
By saying he goes close to Allah, Allah is found everywhere,he is not restricted to one place, albeit heaven, he knows of this forum, he knows all, he sees all, he hears all. So why did the Holy Prophet (saw) have to go to heaven to see him? Does he hold a physical manly form there? If this is your belief then this is nothing other than shirk.
Quran 36:82
But His command, when He intendeth a thing, is only that he saith unto it: Be! and it is.
this is the law of Allah....
this is how He does things....
not according to scientific laws which may be proven wrong the very next day by some other smart guy....
Quran 19:21
*He said: "So (it will be): thy Lord saith `That is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': it is a matter (so) decreed." *
things r easy for Allah....
He is not limited to scientific laws to carry out His orders....
the laws of nature r in accordance to Allah's Will....
they surrender to His Will and not vice versa....
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Hash00: *
Firstly, I agree in entirity with armughal about the "being raised," issue. It is an article of faith that all will one day rise to answer for their deeds and in this case, Jesus speaks of the same day of judgement.
Regarding waffahu in chapter 24:39, it is not translated as death as fawaffahoo is the word used in the conect and not waffa, which is a completely different word.
There has been little other attempt to refute that Isa has not died, apart from this one single line. Other points have been talked about. One of them is the "raising of Isa" (as) for which the arabic verse often quoted is "rafaa" which in my first post is translated as "raising to myself. However, let me show you other translations of the same verse.
From Islamicity:
**Tilka alrrusulu faddalna baAAdahum AAala baAAdin minhum man kallama Allahu warafaAAa baAAdahum darajatin waatayna AAeesa ibna maryama albayyinati waayyadnahu biroohi alqudusi walaw shaa Allahu ma iqtatala allatheena min baAAdihim min baAAdi ma jaathumu albayyinatu walakini ikhtalafoo faminhum man amana waminhum man kafara walaw shaa Allahu ma iqtataloo walakinna Allaha yafAAalu ma yureedu
2:253 Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan. **
Here, it is talked about as raising of status, just as the status of Isa (as) was raised.
**Wahuwa allathee jaAAalakum khalaifa alardi warafaAAa[/y] baAAdakum fawqa baAAdin darajatin liyabluwakum fee ma atakum inna rabbaka sareeAAu alAAiqabi wainnahu laghafoorun raheemun
6:165 It is He Who hath made you (His) agents, inheritors of the earth: He hath raised you in ranks, some above others: that He may try you in the gifts He hath given you: for thy Lord is quick in punishment: yet He is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. **
Here, it is clearly shown, that being raised is in the sense of being raised in rank.
**Walaw shina larafaAAnahu biha walakinnahu akhlada ila alardi waittabaAAa hawahu famathaluhu kamathali alkalbi in tahmil AAalayhi yalhath aw tatrukhu yalhath thalika mathalu alqawmi allatheena kaththaboo biayatina faoqsusi alqasasa laAAallahum yatafakkaroona
7:176 If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog: if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect. **
Again, this is raising in status.
**WarafaAAa abawayhi AAala alAAarshi wakharroo lahu sujjadan waqala ya abati hatha taweelu ruyaya min qablu qad jaAAalaha rabbee haqqan waqad ahsana bee ith akhrajanee mina alssijni wajaa bikum mina albadwi min baAAdi an nazagha alshshaytanu baynee wabayna ikhwatee inna rabbee lateefun lima yashao innahu huwa alAAaleemu alhakeemu
12:100 And he raised his parents high on the throne (of dignity), and they fell down in prostration, (all) before him. He said: "O my father! this is the fulfilment of my vision of old! Allah hath made it come true! He was indeed good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you (all here) out of the desert, (even) after Satan had sown enmity between me and my brothers. Verily my Lord understandeth best the mysteries of all that He planneth to do, for verily He is full of knowledge and wisdom. **
Needs no explanation.
**WarafaAAna laka thikraka
94:4 And raised high the esteem (in which) thou (art held)? **
All other instances in this are relating to raising the heavens to their position, which are fixed.
Wasalam,
Hasee
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Would kindly quote, give us reference of the translation that you are using.
Absolutely, I am using the islamicity.com translation.
There is way too much confusion about prophet Isa within the vast muslims. Each individual has his own version of how prophet Isa was lifted upto heavens. There is absolutely no consistency in the theory and even if there was, its still vague and people remain unclear and confused. I have heard many muslims debate this topic and they use illegit arguments.
It's very hard to believe something that the vast muslims themselves are confused on. Some say something, others say something.
Allah has never made the quran difficult. His point is not to make things difficult for us where we have to resolve to making our own interpretations of things and leaving things to our imaginations. If that was the case, then imagine what a mess the whole quran would be (astaghfaar). Allah has chosen only a few muslims that are on the right track. Obviously, muslims that have theories with no consistency and validity make it hard to believe in them.
12:100 And he raised his parents high on the throne (of dignity), and they fell down in prostration, (all) before him. He said: "O my father! this is the fulfilment of my vision of old! Allah hath made it come true! He was indeed good to me when He took me out of prison and brought you (all here) out of the desert, (even) after Satan had sown enmity between me and my brothers. Verily my Lord understandeth best the mysteries of all that He planneth to do, for verily He is full of knowledge and wisdom.
Needs no explanation.
WarafaAAna laka thikraka
Thank you Hash00... were the parents raised PHYSICALLY high up in this text ? The answer is No.
Point well proven.
false translation to meet my views? i used one of the accepted translators Shakir..
so you think ‘raising’ is metaphorical then right? and further you said:
i see that you do understand “raising” is metaphorical… but now I have to ask you.. not to stop at 4:158 but continue reading:
[4:159] And there is not one of the followers of the Book but most certainly believes in this before his death, and on the day of resurrection he (Isa) shall be a witness against them.
PakistaniAbroad: Now we all know the People of the Book have the same belief as today’s Muslims.. that Isa was “raised to Allah” (meaning physical ascension).. but why then would Isa be a witness against them on the day of resurrection??
two points:
-
he will testify AGAINST them.. which means their belief is false or incorrect.
-
He will do it at the Day of Resurrection.. so he will have no other ‘coming back’ to clear things up.
Your turn 
This is what the Saudi MUSLIM ARAB scholars are saying :-
We recently came across an article that appeared on September 18, 1992--very recently--in the Saudi Arabian newspaper called, Arab News. A Saudi Arabian orthodox Muslim religious scholar named Adil Salahi writes for that paper and offers answers to questions that are submitted by orthodox Muslims [Saudi Arabia is an orthodox Muslim country]. The following 1992 exchange clearly demonstrates, as we've shown above, that the issue of the humanity of Jesus Christ is still hotly debated even within the orthodox Islamic world. This exchange appeared on page 9 of the religious page of Arab News. The religious page of that newspaper is entitled, Islam in Perspective. First, the question that was posed by the reader:
"May I put to you a question that you have answered before: 'Had the death of Jesus Christ preceded the miracle of his ascension?' After reading your question in which you said that Jesus Christ did not die, I happened to read a book entitled Deep into the Quran by Dr. Kamal Umar, an eminent Pakistani author. He comes decidedly in favour of the view that Jesus Christ died a natural death. I am sending you a photocopy of the relevant pages, requesting you to clear the controversy."
Adil Salahi gives his response in detail. Any highlighting, of course, is ours:
"I have certainly answered that question by saying that Jesus Christ did not die, but Allah raised him to Himself. In this, I have only given the view of the majority of scholars, including contemporary ones. I have quoted the Quranic verse which says in reference to what the Jews used to assert: "And their statement. 'We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah'. They certainly have neither killed him nor crucified him, although it was made to appear so to them." This verse concludes with a categorical statement: "For certain they have not killed him, but Allah has raised him to Himself. Allah is Almighty, Wise."
"There are a number of hadiths [sayings of Muhammad] which speak of the return of Jesus Christ to this world when he will resume his mission of preaching when the message of the Oneness of Allah. That will definitely be the Divine message in its final form, i.e. Islam, as preached by Prophet Muhammad (peace be on them both). Those Hadiths and the Quranic statements which speak of the raising of the Prophet Jesus provide a full justification for the view of the majority of scholars that Jesus Christ did not die but was raised by Allah and that he will make a second appearance at a time which will be appointed by Allah Himself and known to Him alone.
"However, there are references to Jesus Christ in the Quran which use a term that is most frequently used to indicate death although not necessarily so. Linguistically speaking, the word means the completion of a term. When it refers to life, it means the completion of one's life and its termination by death. It is used in this sense in other verses of the Quran. Dr. Kamal Umar quotes these verses in his book and translates them as referring to the death of Jesus. Thus, he gives the translation of Verse 55 of Surah 3 as follows: "When Allah said: Isa! (this is the Arabic name of Jesus) certainly I would cause you to die and would raise you to Myself and will protect you from those people who rejected you." In this respect, Dr. Umar is not alone.
"A number of scholars, some of them prominent indeed, have expressed this view and argued that this expression which occurs in three different verses in the Quran, means actually that Jesus Christ died a natural death. They point out that Allah has protected him from his enemies, by foiling their attempts to kill or crucify him. There is no argument among Muslim scholars that Jesus Christ was neither killed nor crucified. But, as you see, some scholars argue that he died a natural death. "When these scholars refer to the "Ascension" of Jesus, or, use the Quranic expression, his being raised to Allah, they interpret this as having an abstract sense. According to them, it means that his position with Allah has been enhanced and he has been given a very high status.
"This is indeed the case, because Jesus Christ is one of the five messengers of Allah who have shown the greatest resolve in their service of Allah's cause. The other four are: Noah, Abraham, Moses and Muhammad (peace be on them all). "When these scholars speak about the Hadiths which tell of the second coming of Jesus Christ and what he will be doing, such as breaking the cross, killing the pig and preaching the message of Oneness of Allah, they cast strong doubts about their authenticity. Their argument is not without validity.
"Where does this leave us? The answer is that there are two views: The first, which is held by a majority of scholars, is that Jesus Christ did not die but was raised by Allah and that he will make a second coming at a time determined by Allah, when he will be preaching the message of Islam. The other view is that Jesus Christ died a natural death after Allah had saved him from his enemies. Both groups of scholars agree that Jesus Christ was neither killed nor crucified. Needless to say, those who subscribe to the second view do not speak of a second coming of Jesus Christ. "What we need to know is that the raising of Jesus Christ alive to Heaven is not an article of Islamic faith.
"This means that if a person denies it he is not an unbeliever. A person is not considered to be an unbeliever for preferring a reasonable and valid interpretation of a Quranic verse. Had the Quranic verse been of the sort that cannot admit more than one interpretation, then denying its meaning could easily land the person who makes such a denial in the class of unbelievers. This means that a person may adopt the view he prefers, but when he does so, he should arrive at the conclusion he prefers after carefully studying the matter and considering the evidence in support of their view. Dr. Umar has made a choice to which he is certainly entitled. I chose the view and I am equally entitled to it."
Apparently, the passionate belief of the majority of orthodox Muslims that Jesus Christ will physically return in the last days and establish Islam as the dominant religion, is only one interpretation, according to Adil Salahi and other orthodox Muslim scholars, and not the only one.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
PakistaniAbroad: Now we all know the People of the Book have the same belief as today's Muslims.. that Isa was "raised to Allah" (meaning physical ascension).. but why then would Isa be a witness against them on the day of resurrection??
two points:
he will testify AGAINST them.. which means their belief is false or incorrect.
He will do it at the Day of Resurrection.. so he will have no other 'coming back' to clear things up.
Your turn :)
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they, the people of the Book, believed he died....
jews believed they killed Jesus (as)....
christians believed he died on the cross to save them....
surely Jesus (as) will testify against these people....
whats so strange about it????
they were on a wrong belief....
he did not die....
:)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
they, the people of the Book, believed he died....
jews believed they killed Jesus (as)....
christians believed he died on the cross to save them....
surely Jesus (as) will testify against these people....
whats so strange about it????
they were on a wrong belief....
he did not die....
:)
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Why would Jesus wait till the day of judgement to testify against them. Why not will he testify against them in this world on his second coming... (according to your belief) 'cause christians and jews would know then that they were wrong in their belief. explain pls!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *
Why would Jesus wait till the day of judgement to testify against them. Why not will he testify against them in this world on his second coming... (according to your belief) 'cause christians and jews would know then that they were wrong in their belief. explain pls!
[/QUOTE]
because they wont be all here (u know most of them wud have died before his coming) so punish them all together in the day of judgement...
what else has Allah reserved that day for if ppl were to be punished earlier????
Most thoroughly investigated virgin birth
There have been many claims of virgin birth in human history, strong in legend (Greek mythology, the Bible etc.) and weak in the medical literature. In some rare cases a woman has carried part of her twin around inside her and subsequent "delivery" has created the illusion of virgin birth. In November 1955 the "London Sunday Pictorial" asked women to come forward who thought that there had been no father to their child. Nineteen claims were made to the newspaper and these were investigated. Eleven were negated in the initial enquiry because the mothers thought an intact hymen inevitably indicated a virgin conception. Finally the nineteen cases were reduced to one possible. Mrs. E. Jones and her daughter were subjected to further thorough investigation. Their blood, saliva and tasting powers were all examined, and attempts were made to graft skin from one to the other. Blood, saliva, and tasting powers were a! lmost identical, but the grafts did not take. In June 1956 the Sunday Pictorial was prepared to state that, after six months of detailed medical investigation, the results were consistent with a case of virgin birth. Professor J. B. S. Haldane disagreed and argued that the evidence in fact led to the opposite conclusion - the child had a father.
Quranic Proofs About Jesus’s Death
Chapter 16 - Al Nahl
**[16:21] And those on whom they call besides Allah create not anything, but they are themselves created.
[16:22] They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will be raised. **
More than half of the world believes that Jesus is God. The second verse clearly states that they are dead, not living and they know not when they will be raised. This clearly proves that Jesus is dead.
Chapter 21 - Al Anbiya
**[21:8] And We sent none as Messengers before thee but men to whom We sent revelations. So ask the people of the reminder, if you know not;
[21:9] Nor did We give them bodies that ate not food, neither were they to live forever. **
Here also, Quran clearly proves that none of the Messengers that Allah sent can survive without food and neither can one live forever, include Jesus.
**[21:35] We granted not everlasting life to any mortal before thee. If they shouldst die, shall they live here for ever?
[21:36] Every soul shall taste of death; and We test you with evil and good by way of trial. And to US shall you be returned. **
Here also Quran clearly states that no mortal before Huzur:saw: has been given an everlasting life and this includes Jesus:as:
Mr. Hash00,
What will you do after proving that jesus had died. If you do not prove it, what will happen then..?? Shall jesus become alive...??
And why you want to call yourself to be muslim when other muslims do not want to call you muslim..???
To be known as a muslim is not a proudful sort of thing. I suggest you to leave your faith and start thinking indipendent of any religion.
You are quoting quranic verses in support of your claims. There are so many contradictions in quranic teachings. Somewhere jesus is dead and somewhere he may be alive. I am showing in other threads that quran is un-scientific and illogical also.
Such a contradictory, un-scientific and illogical scripture cannot be from absolute divine.
Islam is not a true religion. Ahmedyism which is a sub-branch of this main religion is also untrue.
And in fact all the religions are not true. All religions promote prjudices ,biasness and hatered towards all other religions. Islam has no exception. Islam also teaches its followers not to make friends among jews and chriestians. What is this...?? Is it not the teaching of hatered...??? Islam also promotes this hatered even towards its sub-branches. You must be knowing this.
Humans are not created by any god. They are the product of rigid and blind physical forces of this universe. Humans do not need any divine guidance. They themself have to device a better and decent social living style.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by basic_force: *
Mr. Hash00,
What will you do after proving that jesus had died. If you do not prove it, what will happen then..?? Shall jesus become alive...??
And why you want to call yourself to be muslim when other muslims do not want to call you muslim..???
To be known as a muslim is not a proudful sort of thing. I suggest you to leave your faith and start thinking indipendent of any religion.
You are quoting quranic verses in support of your claims. There are so many contradictions in quranic teachings. Somewhere jesus is dead and somewhere he may be alive. I am showing in other threads that quran is un-scientific and illogical also.
Such a contradictory, un-scientific and illogical scripture cannot be from absolute divine.
Islam is not a true religion. Ahmedyism which is a sub-branch of this main religion is also untrue.
And in fact all the religions are not true. All religions promote prjudices ,biasness and hatered towards all other religions. Islam has no exception. Islam also teaches its followers not to make friends among jews and chriestians. What is this...?? Is it not the teaching of hatered...??? Islam also promotes this hatered even towards its sub-branches. You must be knowing this.
Humans are not created by any god. They are the product of rigid and blind physical forces of this universe. Humans do not need any divine guidance. They themself have to device a better and decent social living style.
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majnoon!