The article can be found here. I actually thought it is a rule of this fowum that whenever someone “cut-and-past”, a link for the source should be shown.
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*Originally posted by sholay: *
Fraudia has already given the ayats which confirm that all Prophets/ Messengers are equal and no distinction should be made between them.
Furthermore, the Qur'aan also states that if Allah was to punish all living beings on earth for their sins, not one living soul would be left.
Muslims do not or should not get into a my prophet v your prophet scenario, as this would directly contradict the Qur'aan.
Getting onto the topic, I do not accept Jesus was killled or crucified as the Qur'aan testifies to this. As I have stated many a time, the Qur'aan is the only Divine scripture on earth that is unchanged and in it's original format, therefore we do have a very valid source for our stance.
Ironically, the Qur'aan also dedicates one whole chapter to Mary mother of Jesus and the family of Imraan from where Jesus descends after Isaac that is.
Jesus is a great Prophet and always will be, the same as all the other Prophets.
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Dear one,
But isn't Jesus a beloved profit as well?
Something we can agree on? Perhaps?
Jesu' said, I am, and you will see me sitting aat the right hand of God, and returning to earth in the clouds of heaven.
Please read the "A question to Ahmedis post" for my response to this topic.
I have an article here, which is based on a videotape of Ahmed Deedat. It's written in Dutch, I don't have a dictionary here, so there will be many many mistakes in it, sorry about that, I'm trying to translate it as well as possible. There are some very interesting points in it.
DID JESUS (PBUH) DIE ON THE CROSS?
The crucification and resurrection are the base of Christianity. But what if Jesus (pbuh) didn't die on the cross? Then the base of the whole religion disappears. Then the religion is empty, without content. We can read this in the Bible in 1Corinthiers 15:14 "...And if Jesus isn't resurrected, then our whole preaching is without content, and without content is also your believe..." Christians should actually also be happy that it's about a crucification here. Now the cross is their 'holy' symbol. Imagine if it would be about cutting of a head with a guillotine. Then there would be many people with a guillotine as a piece of jewelry around there neck, on all churches there would be a guillotine as a 'holy' symbol. Just for clarification, the cross is a murder weapon en torture tool. How could this be a symbol of a religion???
In the Bible we can read that the prophet Jesus (pbuh) didn't die. REally, it's written in it clearly. Everything I tell you in this article, comes from the Bible, so you can check it yourself. I didn't make up anything myself, I just read the Bible. In conversations with a Bible expert from Belgium and other Christians there were no responses either.
Now the PROOVE THAT JESUS (PBUH) didn't die. First of all, I want to show you what the Quran says about this. In Surah 'An Nisa' in aya 157 and 158 is written: (sorry about the lousy translation, may Allah forgive me)
"...And (because of) their saying 'We have killed the Masih Isa, son of maryam.' But they didn't kill him and they didn't crucify him, but SOMEONE THAT TO THEM LOOKED LIKE HIM. And behold, the ones who differiate in opinion on that , doubt about that under themselves. They have no knowledge about that, they only follow suspicions, and they themselves aren't convinced that they killed Isa.."
"..But Allah has just lifted (proper word??) him to Himself. And Allah is all mighty, All knowing.."
It's very interesting that Allah tells us here: "...they only follow suspicions..". when you read the Bible, this is true. The tellings aobut the crucification and resurrection are stories which they heard through others. The authors of the for Evangelies (proper English word?) Matteus, Marcus, Luke and John, where no eyewitnesses of the happenings. There for the differences in the tellings.
That the disciples weren't there personally either is written in Marcus 14:50. There it says: "..And they all left Him alone and fled.."
First we're going to see what the Bible says about the word resurrection. Look at 1
^ this is called "the swoon theory"..Deedat thought that jesus was taken up to heaven after he survived the cross... The contradiction comes here from all the mainstream muslims who beleve that Judas was replaced by jesus as he was given his features and then was made dumb by some means(miraculously).. and jesus was taken up to heaven with body..
But Quran never says that.. It says "rafa'a", which means to elevate.. no where does this word mean "bodily ascentions"..
Hadith from Bukhari.
Hadith from Bukhari
another one.
Tafseerul Qural by Hazret Mohiyyodin Ibne Arabi [Tafseerul Quran Hazret Mohiyyodin Ibne Arabi](http://members.kabsi.at/ahmadiya/tafsir_alqura.htm)
The Holy Quran Speaks
Holy Quran Al Ambiya
and Holy Propeht (saw) says.
I couldn't finish the article, it's very long, I will try finishing it later or else tomorrow. There is a lot more to come.
According to Islam all prophets are equal.. no distinction amongst them
they were just vessels carrying the message from God.
For prophet/ messenger to be believed, they were of pure heart.
How would you go about following a man who was a liar as a child. Would you really believe the message??
You shall be judged on intention and action, so for the prophets to be prophets their intentions had to be pure as well....
Every prophet was distinct from the other,
Adam (PBUH) being the first,
Abraham (PBUH) the father of nations
Jesus (PBUH) the only of immaculate conception
Muhammad (PBUH) the last one.
but they are just external characteristics.. and do not hold forth any significance in the eyes of God.
(second part of the article)
First we're going to see what the Bible says about the word resurrection. Look at 1Corinthiers 15:44. There it says: "..A natural body is sown, and a spiritual one awakened..." So no fles, bones and blood. But a spiritual body you can't touch. We must keep this in our mind for a few minutes. We find more info in the same chapter 1Corintiers 15, but in verses 47 and 50.
Now the resurrection of Jesus (pbuh). Read the follow pieces from the Bible. Matteus 28:1-10: "....Late after sabbat, by the dawn of the first day of the week, MARIA OF MAGDALA (1) AND THE OTHER MARIA (1) went to see the grave. And behold, an earthquake came, because ONE ANGEL of the Lord came down to earth and approached them, AND HE REMOVED THE STONE and sat on it. He looked like lightening and his clothes were white as snow. And the guards were so afraid of him they became like the dead. the angel answered and said to the women: Don't be afraid, because I know, you're looking for Jesus, the crucified one. He isn't here, because He is resurrected, like he had so himself, come see the place where he lay before. And then leave and tell his disciples that He is awakened from the dead. And behold, He will go ahead of you to Galilea; there thy shall see HIm. See, I told you. And they left immediately, with fear and happiness and hurriedto tell his disciples. And see, Jesus came to her and said: Greetings to you. they approached him and grabbed his feet and worshipped him..."
In Short: Maria of Magdale and the other Maria, two persons. When they came by the grave side, the stone was still at it's palce. They saw ONE angel repalce it. They ran into Jesus (pbuh) and he didn't look like a ghost. NOw read Marcus 16:1-8: "...And when the sabbat came, MARIA OF MAGDALA (1) AND MARIA (2) (MOTHER OF JACOBUS) AND SALOME (3) bought spices to oil Him. And very ealry on the first day of the week they went to the grave, when the sun rose. And they said to each otehr: who will remove the stone from the grave for us? And when they looked up, they say that THE STONE WAS ALREADY REMOVED. Because it was very big. And when they went inside, the saw ONE YOUNGSTER sitting on the rightside, dressedin white clothes, and she was afraid. He said to her: Dont'be afraid. You are looking for Jesus, the Nazarener, the crucified one. He is resurrected, He is not here, see the place where he lay. But go now, and tell his disciples and Petrus, that He is going ahead of you to Galilea.."
In Short: Maria of Magdala, Maria (mother of Jacobus) and Salome, three persons instead of two. Then when they came at the grave side, the stone was already removed. The also didn't run into Jesus (pbuh) this time. Again there was only one angel here.
(third part of the article)
Now read Luke 23:56b to 24:12: “…And on sabbat they rested according to the rules, but on the first day of the week the left early in the morning with the spices which they hath prepared to the grave. THEY FOUND THE STONE REMOVED, and when they went inside, they didn’t find the body of Lord Jesus. And it happened, that while they were astonished by that, that , see, TWO MEN in shiney clothes were standing there. And when they became terrified and looked down to the earth, they said to her: What, you’re looking for the living by the dead? He is not here, but He is resurrected..” " .. And they remembered His words, and when they returned from the grave, they told everything to the eleven (disciples) and everybody else. These were MARIA MAGDALA (1), JOHANNA (2) AND MARIA (3) (mother of Jacobus).."
In Short: They were Maria of magdale, JOhanna (not Salome?), and Maria (mother of Jacobus). Then when they came by the grave, the stone was already removed. Not one angel, but two. also they didn’t run into Jesus here.
three different stories about the resurrection. Why? Because these stories are told from one person to another. The authors were no eye witnesses. So the differences of the crucification and the resurrection show, that these are suspicions, as the Quran also tells us. But there is more yet.
(fourth part…)
Now read verse John 20:1:18, also a story about the resurrection and again other facts: “..And on the first day of the week MARIA OF MADALA (1) went to the grave, in the early morning when it was still dark and she saw THE ROCK WAS ALREADY REMOVED. She hurried to Simon Petrus and the other disciple who Jesus loved, and said to them: They have taken the Lord away from the grave and we don’t know where they have put him..” “..And Maria stood outside the grave , crying. While she cried, she bent over the grave and saw TWO ANGELS sitting, in white clothes, one at the head side and the other on the foot side, where the body of Jesus lay before. And they said to her: Why do you cry, woman? She said to them"Because they took my Lord away and I don’t know, where they have put HIm. After these words she turned around and saw Jesus standing, BUT SHE DIDN’T KNOW IT WAS JESUS. Jesus said to her: Woman why do you cry? Who do you search? sHE THOUGHT IT WAS THE GARDENER. and said to him: Lord, if you have taken Him away, then please tell me where you have laid him, so I can remove him. Jesus said to her: Maria! She turned around and said to HIm in Hebrew: Rabboeni! Which means master! Jesus said to her : DON’T HOLD ME, because I haven’t elevated yet to the FAther, but go to my brothers and tells them: I will be elevated up to my FAther and your Father, to my God and your God..”
In Short: Now Maria of Magdala went to the grave alone. Again the rock was already removed. There were two angels. Before she went in the grave, Simon Petrus and the other dissciple had been inside. She wasn’t allowed to hold Jesus (as) (she was in Matteus 28:9) Maria saw Jesus, but didn’t recognise him. She thought he was the gardener.
Something new is, that Jesus (pbuh) was not recognisable. He was dressed as a gardener. Why? Because he wasn’t dead, so if people would see Him, they would recognise him and still kill Him. If he would have been resurrected, then they wouldn’t be able to kill him anymore. Read 20:36 “…because they can’t die anymore…”. In Luke 24:17 you can also read tht Jesus was unrecognisable, so disguised (spelling?). It says: “…so they didn’t recognise HIm…”. It also is a fact, that one could speak normally to this man (Jesus pbuh), a proove Jesus (pbuh) looked like a human being and not a ghost. A resurrected body is a spiritual one as we’ve read, but Jesus didn’t look like that.
Also look at what Jesus himself says in Luke 24:36-41: " .. And while they spoke about this, He stood in their middle: they were startled and afraid and thought they saw a ghost. But He said to them: Why are thy startled and why are there doubts in your hearts? See my hand and feet, THAT IT IS ME MYSELF, touch me and see THAT A GOST DOESN’T HAVE FLESH AND BONES, LIKE YOU SEE THAT I DO HAVE THEM. And he showed them His hand and feet. And when they from joy still didn’t believe Him, He said: Do you have anything to eat here? They gave Him baked fish. He took it and ATE it in front of their eyes…"
Jesus (pbuh) says a ghost doesn’t have flesh and bones. He also says he Himself does ahve them. He also says ‘touch me’. When they didn’t completely believe Him he ate. Why did he eat? To proove that he was alive like humans and not as a ghost. So if his body is a natural one, with flesh and bones and that he eats, tht means his body is not a spiritual one. So the conclusions we have to draw is, that Jesus (pbuh) is not resurrected and so didn’t die on the cross.
So Jesus (pbuh) says he didn’t die, the Christians say he did.
Who is right, The Christians or Jesus (pbuh)?
(more to come..)
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sadya
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great quote and it proves i am rite about hazrat esa (jesus) peace be upon them not being killed astagferullah but being raised to the heavens by allah ater which the christains became corrupt.
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*Originally posted by sadya: *
So Jesus (pbuh) says he didn't die, the Christians say he did.
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Mr Deedat and yourself only quote what is expediant to your reasoning without considering the full scope. Jesus DID NOT say he never died.
According to John.20v24-28 Jesus was the person crucified: Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. When the other disciples told him that they had seen the Lord, he declared, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them, and said, "Peace be with you!" Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." Thomas answered, "My Lord and my God!" Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Jesus explained his death and resurection in Luke.24v45: Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and foregiveness of sins wll be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.
Mr Deedat also conveniently prefer NOT to refer to the following: 1Cor.15v3-6 ...that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep....
Jesus even prophesied his own death according to Mat.17v22: When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, "The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life."
I understand it if someone prefer to accept some ignorant person's word that the New Testament is not worth the paper it is written on, BUT please do not then try and use this self same collection of books to try and proof what is not written in it. The evidence from the New Testament is clear for those that accept it's authenticity: Jesus was crucified, died, raised on third day, taken up to heaven. For those that believes otherwise, well I suppose they do have very good reasons and authenticated writings of reputable persons to the contrary. I tend to accpet the word of people that died believing in what they believed, like Peter, Paul, John and the other disciples that knew Jesus Christ personally. (Wonder if the other people that believe that Jesus was not crucified died for this knowledge).
TOM: This “personally” is same as this (meaning “consulting Holy Spirit”) or personally as you would know your friend with whom you spent time (physical attendance)?
was saint paul really one of the disciples??
Wasen't he the one attributing divinity to christ??
When was he born??
and you hold his account of events valid??
( fifth part of the article...)
What else does Jesus (pbuh) say on this subject. Read Matteus 12:38-41 "...Master, we would like to see a sign of You. But he answered them and said: An angry and cheating tribe desires a sign, but it won't receive any other sign but the sign of Jona (pbuh), the prophet. Because as Jona (pbuh) stayed three days and three nights in the stomach of the sea monster, likewise will the Son of people be in the heart of earth, three days and three nights..."
So the sign ( the miracle) of JEsus (pbuh) is the same as the sign (miracle) of Jona (pbuh). This part contains two interesting facts. The first is that Jesus (pbuh) says he would stay three days and three nights in his grave. When we look what the Bible says about this, we read that jesus (pbuh) would have been crucified on 'good friday' (what good is about this, I don't know), one day before the sabbat (a saturday). Read for example Luke 23:54 "..And it was the day of preparation and the sabbat came.."
In the Bible we read that Jesus (pbuh) would be 'resurrected' on the first day of the week, one day after the sabbat, so on a sunday. Read for example Luke 24:56b "...And on sabbat they rested according to the rules, but on the first day of the week they left very early in the morning.."
When we then count the days and nights that Jesus (pbuh) was supposedly in his grave, we count ONE DAY and TWO NIGHTS. Jesus (pbuh) says three days and three nights, the bible says one day and two nights.
Again the question, who is right, Jesus (pbuh) or the Bible writers?
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*Originally posted by The Old Man: *
I understand it if someone prefer to accept some ignorant person's word that the New Testament is not worth the paper it is written on, BUT please do not then try and use this self same collection of books to try and proof what is not written in it. The evidence from the New Testament is clear for those that accept it's authenticity: Jesus was crucified, died, raised on third day, taken up to heaven.
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Jesus never stayed three days in his grave. Read the fifth part of the article please.
believe and say what u may, Islamic belief is that Jesus did not die, so thats how we (i.e. muslims) will always see it....
(sixth part...)
Now the second clearer fact that JEsus (pbuh) didn't die. Jesus (pbuh) said that his sign will be the same as the sign of Jona (pbuh). Equal to JOna (pbuh) who stayed three days and three nights in the stomach of a seamonster, Jesus (pbuh) will be three days and three nights in his grave. Now let's take a look at the sign of the prophet JOna (pbuh).
Read the small, but very important chapter "Jona" in the Old Testament in the Bible. I shall write in short the most important parts of this chapter here: The prophet JOna (pbuh) fled from the Lord. He left on a ship to the sea. Therefor God let it storm on the sea, so the ship had to lose some weight. The people on the ship were convinced that this was a punishment from god and wanted to know who the cause of this misery was. Jona (pbuh) admitted he was the guilty one and said: Take me and throw me in the sea, and the sea storm shall stop." first they tried to save Jona (pbuh), but in the end they had to throw him in the sea. Jona (pbuh) tells that the waters surrounded him and threatened his life. Then God sent a big fish and this fish swallowed Jona (pbuh). There he stayed, inside the fish for three days and three nights. And Jona (pbuh) prayed to the Lord, his God. Then God spoke to the fish and it spit Jona (pbuh) out on dry land.
This chapter in the Bible about the prophet Jona (pbuh) tells us about the sign, the miracle of Jona (pbuh). What is this miracle? When we read carefully we see that Jona (pbuh) was alive, when he was thrown in sea. He had volunteerd himself. So Jona (pbuh) was alive. In the sea he didn't drown. He says himself: "Waters surrounded me, they threatened my life." So Jona (pbuh) was alive. Then when the fish swallowed him, he prayed to God. Since dead people don't pray, this is a sign that Jona (pbuh) was alive in the stomach of the fish. So JOna (pbuh) was alive. A miracle, a miracle and a miracle. One would expect Jona (pbuh) to die, but he didn't die. That is his miracle, his sign.
Now Jesus (pbuh) has said: "Like Jona was in the stomach of the sea monster three days and three nights, as shall the Son of people be in the heart of earth, three days and three nights." So what happened to Jona (pbuh), will happen to Jesus (pbuh). Since Jona (pbuh) was ALIVE in the stomach of the sea monster, so shall Jesus (pbuh) be ALIVE in the heart of the earth. Alive.
Now the Christians say that Jesus (pbuh) died, but Jesus (pbuh) says himself he was alive.
Again the question, who is right, Jesus (pbuh) or the Christians?
We have seen clearly, that Jesus (pbuh) didn't die, and so wasn't resurrected. What says the Bible about this: read 1Corinthiers 15:14-15 "..And if Christ isn't resurrected, than our whole preaching is without content and without content is thy faith..."
The Bible tells us more in 1Corinthiers 15. Read vers 17-19 "..and if Christ isn't resurrected, then they faith is fruitless.." "If we have built our hope for this life on Christ, we are the most lamentable of all people..."
That they have built their hope on Jesus (pbuh) is already very strange, because this prophet of Allah (swt) has said himself in the Bible: "..I tell you, the Son can't do anything Himself.." (John 5:19) and "..I can't do anything on my Own power.." (John 5:30). We muslims must feel sorry for the Christians. As we can read in the Bible, " .. we are the most lamentable of all people..." The prophet Jesus (pbuh), whom we muslims respect a lot, has said Himself he didn't die. Unfortunately the Christs don't believe Him and they continue to think he died for their sins. They are indeed the most lamentable of all people, people we should feel sorry for.
I have now shown that Jesus (pbuh) didn't die on the cross and so isn't resurrected either. When we look at what the Noble Quran says about this, we have read in Sura "An Nisa" in aya 157 and 158:
..And (because of ) their saying "We have killed the Masi Isa, son of Maryam." But they didn't kill Him and they didn't crucify him, but someone that looked like him to them. And behold, the ones who differ in opinion about that, doubt that under themselves. They have no knowledge about that. They only follow suspicions, and they themselves are not convinced they have killed Isa...
..But Allah has just elevated him to Himself. And Allah is Almighty, Allknowing...
AllahoeAkbar, when we read this aya, we read the Truth. There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed (saaws) is His messenger.
Shroud of Jesus
Now there was a good and righteous man named Joseph, who, though a member of the council, had not agreed to their plan and action. He came from the Jewish town of Arimathea, and he was waiting expectantly for the kingdom of God. This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then he took it down, wrapped it in a linen cloth, and laid it in a rock-hewn tomb where no one had ever been laid. Luke 23:50-53. See also Matthew 27:57-60; Mark 15:42-46; and John 19:38-42.
A burial cloth, called shroud of Turin, is still preserved thought to belong to Jesus and research has shown that the man wrapped in the cloth was still alive..