JESUS DEAD OR ALIVE????

Society Religion & Philosophy
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In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Ever Merciful

                    Jesus : Alive or Dead?

“And peace on me on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day that I shall be raised up to life (again). Such is Jesus, the son of Mary; (this is) the saying of truth about which they dispute.” (Quran 19:33-34)

BODILY ASCENSION OF JESUS - THE ORIGIN OF THIS BELIEF

It is popular among many that Jesus was not crucified but ‘taken up into heaven alive’ and will be coming back (in his own person) before the Day of Judgement. Almost all over the World, many people have this belief as an article of faith.Where does this belief originate from? In very clear terms it is to be found in the Bible. Here are some references:

ASCENSION OF JESUS:

“So then, after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was RECEIVED UP INTO HEAVEN,AND
SAT ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD.”-MARK 16:19

“And it came to pass,while he blessed them, he was parted from them, AND CARRIED UP INTO
HEAVEN.”-LUKE 24:51

The above verses from the Christian Bible leave no ambiguity in demonstrating that the Acsension of Jesus is Christian idea. Further more the Jews also have the concept of 'bodily acsension into heaven regarding “Elijah”, as stated in the Jewish scriptures:

“And it came to pass,as they still went on,and talked,that,behold,there appeared a chariot of fire,and horses of fire,and parted them both asunder;AND ELIJAH WENT UP BY A WHIRLWIND INTO HEAVEN.” 2 KINGS 2:11

“And Enoch walked with God; and he was not; FOR GOD TOOK HIM.”-GENESIS 5:24

Apart from these many other faiths also have the concept of a coming ‘Saviour’ and Ascensions in body. As we have seen that this faith is that of the Jews and the Christians, now let us proceed to see as to what does Al-Qur’an say about this matter. It should be kept in mind that to be a Muslim one has to believe in and agree with what the Qur’an is saying. Even the slightest disagreement with
the Qur’an invalidates the claim to be a Muslim. (See 41:26)

DEPARTURE OF JESUS FROM THIS WORLD- A QURANIC PERSPECTIVE

When Jesus (p) propagated the message of Allah, and invited people to obey the laws of Allah alone, the Religious leaders and Priests felt threatened, as in a Social order where subservience and obedience is only for Allah’s Laws, there is no room left for the Clergy and they in turn showed severe opposition to the mission of Jesus:

“But when Isa perceived UNBELIEF on their part, he said Who will be my helpers in Allah’s way?
The disciples said: We are helpers (in the way) of Allah: We believe in Allah and bear witness that we are submitting ones .” (3:52)

Now the unbelievers in Jesus’ message plotted to stop the message of Allah from gaining ground, so they plotted against the person of Jesus.

“And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah.”
(3:54)

But Jesus himself stated that the believers would not be able to kill him but instead his death would be in peace:

“And PEACE IS ON ME on the day I was born, and on the DAY THAT I DIE, and on the day I
shall be raised up to life (again) .” (19:33)

Allah himself assured Jesus that the unbelievers will not kill him, instead it is Allah who will complete his period of life and cause him to die, as said in the following verse:

“Lo ! God said:`O Jesus! Verily I shall cause thee to die, and shall exalt thee unto me,and cleanse thee of those who are bent on denying the truth;and I shall place those who follow thee above those who are bent on denying the truth,unto the day of resurrection.In the end unto Me you all must return,and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ.” (3:55)
Muhammed Asad’s translation.

The expression in arabic comes from the root word which
carries the meaning of ‘Completing something or some task to such an extent that nothing else is left out’. In the same manner means ‘Death’,as in Death the life term of a person is fully completed. Following are some references from Standard Arabic dictionaries which tell us about
the meaning of the word .

‘VAFFAT’ = “Death”, “Decease” (An advanced Learners Arabic-English Dictionary by
H.Anthony Salmone pp1222)

‘VAFFAT’ = “Death”, “Demise”, “Decease” (Al Mawrid Arabic-English Dictionary pp 1240)

‘TUVAFA’ = “To take the life of anyone” (A Dictionary & Glossary of the Koran by J.Penrice pp
161)

‘TUUFFA’ = “To die”, “Expire”, “Pass away”, “Give up the ghost”, “Breath ones last”, “Part ones life”
(Al Mawrid Arabic-English Dictionary pp 391)

In English to Arabic dictionaries ie reverse the meaning of ‘vaffat’ is again confirmed;

“DEATH” = ‘vaffat’ (Al Manar English-Arabic Dictionary pp 157)

“DEATH” = ‘vaffat’ (Al Asri English-Arabic Dictionary pp 193)

“DEMISE” = ‘vaffat’ (Al Mawrid English-Arabic Dictionary pp 259)

“DEATH” = ‘vaffat’ (Al Mawrid Eng Arabic Dictionary pp 251)

And much more.

However apart from General Arabic works of Reference, this word has also been used in the sense which conveys the meaning of death or demise or completion of one’s life term in the Qur’an it self. WHERE EVER THE WORD “TUVAFA” OR “MUTE VA FEEKA” IS USED IN
AL-QURAN WHERE ALLAH OR HIS ANGLE IS ONE WHO IS DOING TAVAFA AND HUMAN BEINGS ARE ONE WHOSE TAVAFA IS BEING DONE IT ALWAYS MEANS
THE “SEPERATION OF SOUL FROM THE BODY. ALTHOUGH, IT MAY BE PARTIAL AND TEMPORARY (I.E. AT THE TIME OF SLEEP) OR IT MAY BE
COMPLETE AND PERMANENT (I.E. AT THE TIME OF DEATH)” AS ALLAH SAYS:

It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death: and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep: those on whom He has passed the decree of death He keeps back (from returning to life) but the rest He sends (to their bodies) for a term appointed. Verily in this are Signs for those who reflect. Sura Az-Zumar verse 42. (Translation by A. Yousaf Ali).

Here Allah clearly says that there are only two ways in which He does the “Tuvafa” of
human being but regret for those who attributes a third type of “Tavafa” (i.e. bodily ascension) to Allah (In the case of Jesus / Essa only) without fear of Allah.

The following verses are very clear in ascertaining the meaning of “Vaffa”, “Tuvafa”,“Mutavafa” etc in the Qur’an itself.

Verses of Holy Quran where Allah (or His angle) does “Tuvafa” and human being is one
whose “Tuvafa” is done means seperation of soul from body (i.e. death):

“Our Lord! surely we have heard a preacher calling to the faith, saying: Believe in your Lord, so we did believe; Our Lord! forgive us therefore our faults, and cover our evil deeds and MAKE US DIE with the righteous.” (3:193)

“And you do not take revenge on us except because we have believed in the communications of our Lord when they came to us! Our Lord: Pour out upon us patience and CAUSE US TO DIE in submission.” (7:126)

“My Lord! Thou hast given me of the kingdom and taught me of the interpretation of sayings:
Originator of the heavens and the earth! Thou art my guardian in this world and the hereafter; MAKE ME DIE A MUSLIM and join me with the good.” (12:101)

“But how will it be when the angels CAUSE THEM TO DIE smiting their backs.” (47:27)

“And Allah has created you, then He CAUSES YOU TO DIE , and of you is he who is brought
back to the worst part of life, so that after having knowledge he does not know anything; surely Allah is Knowing, Powerful.” (16:70)

“O people! if you are in doubt about the raising, then surely We created you from dust, then from a small seed, then from a clot, then from a lump of flesh, complete in make and incomplete, that We may make clear to you; and We cause what We please to stay in the wombs till an appointed time, then We bring you forth as babies, then that you may attain your maturity; and of you is he who is
CAUSED TO DIE , and of you is he who is brought back to the worst part of life..” (22:5)

“Say: The angel of death who is given charge of you shall CAUSE YOU TO DIE , then to your Lord you shall be brought back.” (32:11)

The above verses are very distinct and clear in informing us the meaning of ‘Yutavafa’.Now let us again see the verse which discusses about Allah’s ‘Vaffat’ to Jesus (p).

“Lo ! God said:`O Jesus! Verily I shall cause thee to die,and shall exalt thee unto me,and cleanse thee of those who are bent on denying the truth;and I shall place those who follow thee above those who are bent on denying the truth,unto the day of resurrection.In the end unto Me you all must return,and I shall judge between you with regard to all on which you were wont to differ.”-[3:55] Muhammed
Asad’s translation.

In above Allah clearly informs that He will complete Jesus’ life on earth, and this is confirmed again, namely that Jesus had to die a natural death, when we are reminded through Jesus himself stating on the Last Day:

“I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst CAUSE ME TO DIE , Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things” (5:117 M.H.Shakir)

In above verse Jesus’ statement that :

“..when Thou didst cause me to die..”

Is confirming what Allah had earlier said to him in 3:55:

"..Verily I shall cause thee to die… "

In other words Jesus was neither crucified nor taken up into heaven but Allah caused him to die a natural death, i.e. fully completed his life span.Then in the above mentioned verse Jesus is saying:

“..and I was a witness of them AS LONG AS I WAS AMONG THEM…” And further he says;
“…but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them…”

Here Jesus clearly mentions two periods, one in which he
dwelt among his people, and the other in which Allah caused him to die. There is no other period mentioned here which informs of a stage of being taken up and stationed in
heaven temporarily. Furthermore in 19:31 he says:

“And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be and hath enjoined on me Prayer (Salat) and
Charity (Zakat)as long as I live.” (19:31)

In above verse the words “..as long as I live..” bear some importance. Jesus is to establish Salat and give Zakat AS LONG AS HE LIVES. Now if we accept that Jesus is taken up into heaven alive, then how is he performing these activities up there? He mentions that Allah has enjoined Salat
and Zakat on him AS LONG AS HE LIVES . Now some one can say that in heaven he may be
performing Salat. But what about Zakat? Are there any Orphans and Unfortunate persons in heaven as well to whom Jesus is paying Zakat? Does God have any poor people in heaven too? Giving Zakat in heaven would say that in heaven there are poor people! Does this make any sense?!

The above verse is very clear in informing that as long as Jesus lived on this earth, he performed these activities, i.e. Salat and Zakat, and Allah caused him to die a natural death. Now we come to the other issue which creates confusion for people, that is, Jesus being raised unto God.

ALLAH RAISED JESUS TO HIMSELF-WHAT DOES THAT MEAN ?

The opponents of Jesus (p) wanted to depict that Jesus was false in his position as a Messenger of God, and wanted to have him crucified.Crucifixion would mean that Jesus was a (Allah forbid us) cursed person and his death was a cursed death (LA’NTI death). As crucifixion is mentioned in Jewish law (Old testament) as a punishment for blasphemy, and the crucified person is considered cursed and degraded in God’s law (According to the Jews).Their Book says:

“His body shall not remain all night upon the tree,but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day;(for he that is hanged is accursed of God )that thy land be not defiled,which the Lord thy God giveth thee for inheritence.”-DEUTERONOMY 21:23

In the New Testament it is also said that Jesus (p) died an accursed death Astaghfirullah):

“Christ hath redeemed us,from the CURSE of the law,being made a CURSE for us: for it is written, CURSED IS EVERYONE THAT HANGETH ON A TREE.”-GALATIANS 3:13

It is evident from above that the unbelievers want to show the world that Jesus being hanged on the cross died a cursed death, and this boast of theirs is also mentioned in the Qur’an;

“That they said (in boast) We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of God..” (4:157)

But Allah confirmed in the Qur’an that Jesus did not live a cursed life nor died a cursed death but on the contrary he enjoys an exalted and honourable status from Allah. This is what is said in 3:55, that: <Yaa essa inni mutavafeeka wa ra’afiuka illaya> “..O Jesus! Verily I shall cause thee to die,and shall EXALT thee unto me..”

The word in above Ayah is which means elevate you or exalt you.The word
<raf’aa>literally means ‘to raise or elevate’, but in the Qur’an it has been used in many verses to convey the meaning of ‘Raising one’s ranks or status in the sight of Allah’ ,and not physical raising up.Some verses are produced here to show that the meaning of <Raf’aa> is to raise in ranks and
exalt someone:

“It is He Who hath made you (His) agents inheritors of the earth: He hath RAISED you in ranks some above others: that He may try you in the gifts He hath given you: for thy Lord is quick in punishment: yet He is indeed Oft-forgiving Most Merciful.” (6:165)

“And RAISED high the esteem (in which) thou (art held)?” (94:4)

Above verse mentioned of raising with degrees or . But in following verses only raising alone is used to convey the meaning of elevation of ranks and exaltation.

“Also mention in the Book the case of Idris: He was a man of truth (and sincerity) (and) a prophet:”
19:57 “And We RAISED HIM to a lofty station.” (19:56)

In above Nabi Idris (p) is being ‘raised’ to a i.e. a lofty station. This is not that Allah placed him up on a high mountain or sky scraper, but that his rank and status near Allah is exalted and he is elevated in that aspect. Finally the following verse clearly demonstrates that for
‘raising’ ones rank or status the word alone is used.

“And if We had pleased, We would certainly have EXALTED him thereby; but he clung to the earth and followed his low desire, so his parable is as the parable of the dog; if you attack him he lolls out his tongue; and if you leave him alone he lolls out his tongue; this is the parable of the people who
reject Our communications; therefore relate the narrative that they may reflect.” (7:176)

It is this exaltation which is mentioned in 7:176 that Allah is mentioning about Jesus in 3:55 and
4:158. The opponents of Jesus want to convey to the World that as Jesus is crucified he has died a cursed death, but Allah refutes this allegation and confirms that he was neither killed nor crucified:

“That they said (in boast) We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of God ;- but they killed him not nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) know ledge but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not.” (4:157)

And Allah further negates their insinuation that Jesus had a cursed personality, when Allah himself confirms that his status and rank is not that of a cursed person but of an Exalted and elevated status:

“Nay God raised him to Himself; and God is Exalted in Power Wise.” (4:158)

The exalted position of Jesus was also confirmed earlier when he was described as;

"Behold! the angels said: “O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah.” (3:45)

Now see the verse again which talks about Jesus’ exaltation and see the clear meaning.

“Lo! God said:`O Jesus! Verily I shall cause thee to die,and shall exalt thee unto me..”(3:55)

This exaltation of Jesus or raising of his status by Allah is also made clear in another verse where
Allah himself affirms:

Those apostles We endowed with gifts some above others: To one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit.." (2:253)

Now if we were to accept the understanding that Jesus was physically raised ‘to Allah’ then this would mean that Allah is sitting someplace in heaven and one needs to travel up to him. Such an idea about God is un Quranic and is an invention of Jewish and Christian theology, where they have a
concept of ‘Holy father in heaven’. But the Qur’an on the other hands informs us clearly that Allah (God) is not sitting someplace high up in heaven but:

“..He is with you wherever you are..” (57:4)

“..Nowhere is there a secret counsel between three persons but He is the fourth of them, nor (between) five but He is the sixth of them, nor less than that nor more BUT HE IS WITH THEM WHERESOEVER THEY ARE..” (58:7)

“..We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.” (50:16)

“And We are nearer to it( the human soul) than you, BUT YOU DO NOT SEE.” (56:85)

The above verses clearly negate the concept of a ‘Father (or God situated) in Heaven’ or God confined to a space, so that to reach him you need to travel up into heaven.This concept that God is confined in heaven is a Jewish and Christian idea, clearly mentioned at many places in the Bible. But the Qu’ran does not uphold this view and on the contrary clearly negates it. God is not restricted to
time and space but His presence is everywhere, all the time but we cannot see or comprehend it.So again the idea of God stationed someplace in heaven and Jesus ascending unto Him is not verified by the Qur’an.

Now many people also give the argument that when Allah talks about Jesus being raised to Him, then it says: “..Verily I shall cause thee to die,and shall exalt thee UNTO ME..” (3:55)

In this verse the words they claim, denotes that, since Allah says he will raise Jesus TO HIMSELF or ‘Unto me’ ( in Arabic) then this suggests that Jesus was taken to heaven as it says he was raised ‘towards’ Allah, and already they are under the influence of the idea that God is stationed some place in heaven, a concept which the Qur’an most certainly negates.

But again if we analyse this through many other places in the Quran we clearly see that when Allah says about calling or bringing something closer to himself,doesnt mean physically bringing that object
near Him.The arabic preposition used in 3:55 and the word used in 4:158 convey the meaning of Allah raising Jesus towards Him.Now Let us analyse from other Ayat what does and i.e. getting near or going to Allah mean?

Following verses describe this namely or has not been used for Jesus (p) alone but also for other objects:

"Have you not considered (the work of) your Lord, how He extends the shade? And if He had
pleased He would certainly have made it stationary; then We have made the sun an indication of it. Then We take it to Ourselves, Does this mean that the Sun goes to visit Allah on the seventh heaven or someplace like that?

Again this going or calling to Allah has been mentioned not in a physical aspect but a metaphorical one. Nabi Lut (p) informs:

"And Lut believed in Him, and he said: I am fleeing to my Lord,

“He said: 'I will go to my Lord! He will surely guide me!”(37:99)

In the above verse Ibrahim did not go to the heavens to meet His Sustainer, but abandoned
the environment of Shirk and went to such an environemt where he could establish the ‘Deen’ of Allah.This is metaphorically described in above verse as or going to my Sustainer.And not physically going up into heaven or someplace like that.The above verses very clearly describe what is meant by or .Now keep the above usage of the verses
and one more time look at the verses where Allah talks about His raising Jesus to himself.

"Nay God raised him to Himself,

To sum it up again, Allah is not confined to a place or station up in the heavens.We have seen verses negating this idea.Allah caused Jesus to die a natural death.The word has been seen at many places in the Quran to mean death, and this has also been confirmed by dictionaries.Then and have been confirmed through other verses where these words occur and we have seen what meaning they convey through the Quran itself.

Note: This essay has been taken from the following site “Yahoo | Mail, Weather, Search, Politics, News, Finance, Sports & Videos”***

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This essay has clearly explained the meaning of word rafa, mutavafa and the meaning of rising up.

PLEASE READ THIS ESSAY CAREFULY BEFORE YOU REPLY

THANK YOU

KHUDA HAFIZ

MIRZA YASIR

[This message has been edited by mirzayasir (edited January 30, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by mirzayasir (edited January 31, 1999).]

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Any replies?????????

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Still waiting for replies

MIRZA YASIR

[email protected]

mirzayasir.paklinks.com

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The replies are nicely posted on

http://www.irshad.org/idara/

I don’t have the time to re-post them
here.

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In the Name of Allaah, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Merciful.

'But when Our Clear Signs are rehearsed unto them, those who rest not their hope on their meeting with Us, Say: "Bring us a reading other than this, or change this," Say: "It is not for me, of my own accord, to change it: I follow naught but what is revealed unto me: if I were to disobey my Lord, I should myself fear the penalty of a Great Day (to come)." (Surah Younus 10:15)

You see, the difference between the Qaadyaanis and the Muslims is, that we as Muslims follow Muhammad ibn Abdullaah (SAW), and take our understanding of Islaam from the Companions(RAA), while you follow your whims and dsesires and take your understanding from a self appointed prophet who 'kicked the bucket' in the dunny!

I honestly had to think twice before addressing this post. Not because I agreed with any of your explanation, but rather because you clearly highlight the characteristics of an arrogant individual, by not accepting the truth when it comes to you, as has been made evident in several threads prior to this. But with the chance of you leading others astray, onto the same destructive path you yourself are trekking, one could not simply sit back and let your evil beliefs intoxicate the forum.

It has been established, as clear as crystal, in previous posts, that the best understanding and explanation of the Deen of Islaam comes from the Prophet(SAW) and his companions. And that there are several aHadeeth that explain many versus of the Qur'aan, as there are some versus of the Qur'aan that allow us to understand other versus more clearly (and such have been explained by the Prophet(SAW)).

Firstly, I'm not sure if you do in your religion, but we as Muslims most certainly do not take the Bible as a source. So there's no point of you quoting Biblical text, because we know where the Christians stand as regard to Ee'sa Ibn Maryam(AS), and Allaah will Judge them in accordance, and He SWT is the Best of Judges.

Secondly, you can state as many dictionary representations for the word 'waffat', because anyone who speaks Arabic, particularly the scholars, will know that some words don't take the same meaning in all grammatical structured versus and contexts. For us, especially if we don't understand Arabic, let alone speak the language, can be at times too complex to grasp the meaning of Qur'aanic text. This is precisely why we turn to the people of knowledge, namely the scholars, and those whom Allaah has blessed with understanding, the Saalifus-Saaliheen (the first three generations from the time of the Prophet(SAW), the best of whom were the Companions).

Thirdly, you've used several different translations of the Qur'aan to support your views, some of which seem greatly inaccurate. I see the Yusuf Ali translation was used for Surah az-Zumar (39:42), but you were careful not to use it for translating Surah Al-Imraan (3:55) and Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:117), as it would have contradicted your chosen translation. You switch translations in order to suit your arguments, no matter how flawed the translation - this just proves your insincerity toward Islaam and your quest to lead others astray.

To correct your lack of understanding, Yusuf Ali translates Surah Al-Imraan(3:55) as follows: 'Behold! Allaah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee AND RAISE THEE to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: then shall ye all Return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."'

And Surah Al-Ma'idah (5:117) is translated as follows by Yusuf Ali: "Never said I to them aught except what thou didst command me to say to wit, 'Worship Allaah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; WHEN THOU DIDST TAKE ME UP though wast the watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

I also have two other translations which support these two versus as translated by Yusuf Ali. But Alhamdulillaah, I did not even need to turn to them, I simply opened up one of your own translations.

Not only do you use incorrect translations, but are also selective in contracting statements from within versus themselves, rather than submitting the whole verse. You only quoted a few words of Surah Nisaa (4:157), although the whole verse and the verse that follows stands as a witness against your claims in the first place: 'That they said in boast, "We killed Christ Jesus the son Mary, the Messenger of Allaah", but they killed him not,Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjectures to follow, for of surety they killed him not -' And the very next verse of Surah Nisaa (4:158) states: 'Nay, ALLAAH RAISED HIM UP UNTO HIMSELF; and Allaah is exalted in power, Wise -' Again these are taken from the Yusuf Ali translation.

Furthermore, another example of the way in which you fail to present the whole verse. The following verse, Surah Al-Hadeed (57:5) is a witness against your false claims that Allaah, the Most High, is present amongst His creation: 'It is He who created the heavens and earth in six days and THEN ESTABLISHED HIMSELF ABOVE THE THRONE. He knows what penetrates into the earth and what emerges from it and what descends from the heaven and what ascends therein; and He is with you wherever you are. And Allaah, of what you do is Seeing."

This clearly shows that Allaah(SWT) has established himself above the throne. This is also supported in various aHadeeth, where the Prophet(SAW) has stated that Allaah, from the highest Heaven, descends to the lowest Heaven in the last third of the night. One such hadeeth is narrated by Abu Huraira(RAA), where he said: 'Allaah's Messenger(SAW) said. "Our Lord, the Blessed, the Superior, comes down every night to the nearest heaven to us during the last third of the night and He says: (Is there anyone) who invokes Me, (demands anything from Me) so that I may respond to his invocation?(Is there anyone) who seeks My Forgiveness, so that I may forgive him?"'
Also, on Lailat-Ul-Qadr (the Night of Decree), the Prophet(SAW) explained that Allaah(SWT) descends to the lowest heaven. Therefore, this shows that Allaah is not a part of His creation as the Christians and the Sufis believe (that God is everywhere), but is above His thrown, above the Seven Heavens.

The part of the above verse "...He is with you wherever you are. And Allaah of what you do is Seeing." was explained by the Prophet(SAW) to mean that Allaah is with us in knowledge - observing and witnessing - He knows all that we do. His Majesty, Allaah(SWT) does not need to be amongst creation in order to be aware of what's going on, for verily, He is the All Seer, the All Hearer. And this is how the companions(RAA) understood this verse, as it was explained to them by the Messenger(SAW).

So as you can see, explanations and understanding should be based on that of the Prophet(SAW) and his Companions, and certainly not on any explanation that only came about half a century ago. The capacity in which the Companions could understand is far greater than ours, as Allaah(SWT) says as regarding them: "You are the best of nations ever raised up from humanity. You enjoin all that is good and forbid all that is evil, and you believe in Allaah." (Surah Al-Imraan 3:110)

And they got their understanding from Muhammad(SAW), the head of all the Prophets and best individaul to be raised in all humanity, sent to us as an example: "And verily, you (O Muhammad) are on an exalted standard of character." (Surah Al-Qulam 68:4)

This clearly shows that we should follow the Qur'aan and the Sunnah of Muhammad(SAW) as practised by the companions, both in belief and in action. The Messenger of Allaah (SAW) said: 'The stars are the custodians for the sky, so when the stars pass away, that which has been decreed to the sky will come upon it. I am the custodians for my Companions, so when I pass away, there will come upon my Companions that which is decreed for them. And my Companions are the custodians for my Ummah, so when my Companions pass away, that which has been decreed upon my Ummah will come upon it.' (Muslim)

And amongst several things that were prophesised were that there would come many people with false claims of prophethood, and also, by the Day of Judgement, the Ummah would split into 73 sects - all but 1 would be in the Hell Fire - the one upon the Sunnah and the way of the Companions is the saved group.

So Muslims should be careful of the dangers that lie ahead of them, and aware of falsehood when it comes to us. The only way we can be sure of this, is by returning to the Sunnah, and avoiding deviations from the truth, while understanding and implementing Islaam as taught by Muhammad (SAW), and understood by the Companions.

Ibn Mas'ud(RA) said: 'The Prophet(SAW) drew a line for us and said: "This is Allaah's straight path." Then he drew lines to its right and left and said: "These are other paths. Upon every one of them there is a devil calling toward it." Then he recited: "Indeed this is My Straight path, so follow it and do not follow other paths, they will separate you from His path." (Related by Ahmad)

To conclude, a reminder for us all:

'We sent not a messenger, but to be obeyed, in accordance with the will of Allah. If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allaah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful.' (Surah an-Nisaa 4:64 )

…And verily, Allaah Knows Best

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Well said Qaasim.

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Assalam u Alikum, Brother Qasim, you have covered everything ,no more explaination left for Ahmedis now.

JazzakALLAH Khair

Assalam U Alikum

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Assalam O Alaikum

Brother Qasim Excellent explanation, i think no one of us could have put it in such a beautiful way. May Allah SWT reward you for your efforts.

Jazakumullah Khair

Assalam O Alaikum

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As-Salaam 'Alaikum

Brother Qaasim - Jazakallaahu Khairan.

Wa Salaam.

10

I think Qasim's tone is offensive but he qoutes something from the Quran thatputs the matter of Jesus to rest.

""We killed Christ Jesus the son Mary, the Messenger of Allaah", but they killed him not,Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjectures to follow, for of surety they killed him not -' And the very next verse of Surah Nisaa (4:158) states: 'Nay, ALLAAH RAISED HIM UP UNTO HIMSELF; and Allaah is exalted in power, Wise -'"

Anyone claiming that Jesus (P.B.U.H) is dead is in contradiction with the Quran.

Minhaj

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Oops!!! Sorry.

[This message has been edited by mirzayasir (edited February 05, 1999).]

12

Assalam-o-Alaikum,

I am very sorry about the three days delay in the posting of this reply (Qaasim posted his on 2nd and today is 5th). Actually, Its the end of my semester and I was having my exams thats why I couldn't reply. Now that I have got time, I have tried to reply all the issues raised by champ and Qaasim.

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Dear Champ,

I request you to please post those explanations here. So that we can discuss those properly. You have said that you don't have time. It will take only 5 minutes to copy and paste it here.

Dear Qaasim,

You have made many objections in your post so I will try to go step by step, the order in which you have posted.

1.-----You have said, :)"""we as Muslims follow Muhammad ibn Abdullaah (SAW), and take our understanding of Islaam from the companions(RAA), while you follow your whims and dsesires and take your understanding from a self appointed prophet....""" :)This is wrong because we take our understanding from the QURAN and SUNNAH. The role of Hazrat Mirza sahib was to only tell the truth to the people because with the passage of time many wrong believes entered in Muslim ummah. Secondly, he was not self appointed, Allah appointed him as a prophet.

2.-----You wrote, :)"""but rather because you clearly highlight the characteristics of an arrogant individual, by not accepting the truth when it comes to you, as has been made evident in several threads prior to this.""" :)This is wrong too because in the previous posts we presented many verses but instead of replying to those verses the non-ahmadi people kept on jumping to the other verses because they didn't have any explanation for those verses. The verses, which they were claiming, state the death of Jesus are explained in detail here but none of those people have replied yet.

3.-----You wrote that it became clear in the previous posts that Hadith and verses of Quran help us to understand other verse. I NEVER DISAGREED WITH THAT. Its correct.

4.-----You have written, :)"""I'm not sure if you do in your religion, but we as Muslims most certainly do not take the Bible as a source. So there's no point of you quoting Biblical text, because we know where the Christians stand as regard to Ee'sa Ibn Maryam(AS), and Allaah will Judge them in accordance, and He SWT is the Best of Judges.""" :)First you said that "in your religion" LET ME TELL YOU THAT OUR RELIGON IS ISLAM, THE RELIGON OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD (SAW). Then you claimed that I shouldn't use the biblical text and you said that you people don't use it. This is wrong again. You might have heard stories of many prophets and their life history. Most of those stories come from The New and The Old Testament. Quran doesn't explain the stories of all the prophets and the Maulvi take them from The New and The Old Testament. Even if we consider only Hazrat Issa (AS), most of the information comes from the Bible for e.g you might have heard about the Hawari of Hazrat Issa (AS), the 11 companion. All the maulvi believe in their existance and their stories whereas the Quran doesn't talk about the incidences of those hawaris although it does mention their existance. Another example is the prophecy of Hazrat Issa about the advent of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) in bible, every non-ahmadi person I know, believes in that. SO HOW CAN YOU that you people never use Biblical Reference. Secondly, in Quran Allah has said that there is "hidayat and noor" in it. I can't remember the exact reference for this verse but I will tell you as soon as I get it.

5.-----You wrote, :)"""you can state as many dictionary representations for the word 'waffat', because anyone who speaks Arabic, particularly the scholars, will know that some words don't take the same meaning in all grammatical structured versus and contexts.....This is precisely why we turn to the people of knowledge, namely the scholars, and those whom Allaah has blessed with understanding, the Saalifus-Saaliheen (the first three generations from the time of the Prophet(SAW), the best of whom were the companions).""" :)The first reason which you have stated is not valid because you said the people "who speak arabic know" what do you think that those people who have compiled all these dictionaries are non-Arabic speaking people??? They don't know that what is the meaning of the word and how it is used in the language??? For your information, I should tell you that all these are very reputed dictionaries and these dictionaries not only states one meaning of a word, instead they give many meanings and uses of one word. If you are not sure then pick a good arabic dictionary such as Lisan-ul-Arab, etc and you will find that several meanings of a word will be given there and their usage in the language is also given. Then you said that we turn to the ulima and the people whom God Has blessed with knowledge. I have already told you that the dictionaries are compiled by scholars and as far as other scholars are concerned you said that the best among them are the Companions of Hazoor (SAW). HERE I AM PRESENTING THE MEANING OF THIS WORD BY HAZRAT Ibne-Abbas (RA) so that there will be no doubt left because he is a companion of Hazoor (SAW)

HE SAID, "the meaning of mutawafika is mumituka which means death" (Sahih Bukhari: Al-juz-us-Sani, Kitab ul tafseer chapter Ma ja'la.....)

Now you won't have any doubt about the meaning of this word. Another thing which just came to my mind is that even in urdu this word means death. I don't know if you live in Pakistan or not but if you do and if you read the urdu newspaper then you would have read this word many times and this means death.

6.------Next issue is that you said I posted some of the verses from Yousaf Ali's translation and the others from the different translators. Let me tell you that the only difference in the translations is the meaning of the word rafa. Now, I don't want to write all the details of the meaning of the word rafa here. The reason is that there is another thread. "meaning of ra'fa" by jewels. You can go there and find out why the meaning of the word ra'fa is not physical lifting. There are many examples given by jewels and one or two by me too, in order to explain the meaning of word ra'fa. In short I would say that the meaning of the word ra'fa is not lifting up so the translations which you presented are not valid. Secondly, In all the translations which you have presented, you have written in capital letters "ALLAH RAISED HIM UP UNTO HIMSELF" there is a long discussion under the heading "ALLAH RAISED JESUS TO HIMSELF-WHAT DOES THAT MEAN ?" that explains what this means. BUT THE BASIC THING IS THAT THE MEANING OF RA'FA IS NOT LIFTING UP. HOW CAN YOU PROVE THAT????

7.-----Then you came up with another totally wrong claim. You said that I just presented a part of (4:157) and (4:158). This is a lie. If you read carefully, first I presented a part of (4:157) then I explained that part and after that I provided the full translation of the two verses mentioned above. So, in future please read carefully before you make a wrong claim.

8.----Then comes the debate about the presence of Allah everywhere in this world. Firstly, when you present all the verses about descending of Allah from heavens or sitting on a arsh in heaven, they are all metaphorical things. One thing is very clear that Allah is not a physical body like us. I mean that he doesn't have hands, ears, eyes etc. And a property of physical bodies is that they always have a mass and a definite volume. Of course Allah doesn't have a mass or volume. When Quran says that "Hand of Allah" All the ulima agree that its not talking in actual sense its just metaphorical. So we can't take such things literally. But the problem is that how this believe came in the Muslim world. You know that in the past people believed that this sky which we see above our head is a solid thing and it was impossible for them to get there so they thought that people go there after death, those people thought that similarly there will be 6 more sky above this one. But now the science has proven that sky is nothing but air. So why do you people still believe in those old concepts (ONE OF THE REASON OF DOWN FALL OF MUSLIM UMMAH IS THAT THEY THINK SCIENCE IS AGAINST THEM. ALL THE MAULVIS ARE DUMB AND ILLITERATE AND THATS WHY THEY DON'T BELIVE IN SCIENCE). when I ask people that where are your 7 skys, they say its up there. O.K, I accept for a moment, But tell me that for the people on the other side of the world where will be the skys because they also say its up there. Just to simplify this debate now, I would like to tell you that skys or samawat means different levels or Darjat (in urdu). When they say that this person is on this sky and that person is on that sky, it really tells you about there level, and God being the most superior is the highest up in the heavens over all the skys.
The real reason of using such metaphors is that we as human beings don't have enough knowledge to understand a thing (as God told us in ayat-ul-kursi). For e.g. If you were to tell a person about a train in 250 BC, how would you do that??? I am sure you won't say that it has an engine in front and the fuel is burned in the engine by the pistons and then the energy released by the fuel is used to pull many compartments in which there will be seats and people will sit there. If you try to explain like this, that person won't understand even a single word. You have to give some kind of example, like there will be a big donkey and that donkey will eat a lot of wood and in the belly of donkey there will be people sitting and that donkey would take them to where ever they want. So God also used examples to explain such things, As Allah is not a physical body so he can't sit on a physical thing (ARSH), this metaphor only means that as kings who are superior than others in their nation, sit on a takht, Similarly, God is superior than everybody.

9.-----The Hadith of Holy Prophet (SAW) which you have quoted there about the explanation of this verse, doesn't have a reference that where did you get it. So I can't comment on that Hadith unless you tell me the exact reference, so that I can read the whole Hadith in a proper context and then I will try to figure out what its all about. SO PLEASE TELL ME THE REFERENCE.

After that you have presented general verses and I don't want to say anything about those verses because they are obvious and I believe in them. Just a quick note that if you want to know about the 72 sects VS 1 sect issue, please go to my other post in the thread "Qadiyanis are kafir".

I think that I have answered all the questions and objections. If I have missed one or two by mistake, please let me know.

KHUDA HAFIZ

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

MIRZA YASIR

[This message has been edited by mirzayasir (edited February 06, 1999).]

13

Jesus is not dead. You know what's really confusing? I thought you Muslims believed that Jesus is alive, and now i'm hearing that he's died.

Besides, doesn't it say in the quran that he is alive? If you don't believe your own religious book, then go to the Bible - it's clear there.

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Dear John,

First of all, I am suspicious that you are really John. I am mean that you might be sher gul or something like that. But as I don’t know you so I can’t say anything and I believe that you are a real John.

You have said that its written in the Quran that he is alive. My question is WHERE? As a muslim I don’t know any place in Quarn where this is written. Can you help us please. Secondly, we can’t get help from Bible in this specific case because Bible has a third point of view that first he died and then God raised him. So thats a different story.

I don’t know your e-mail address because you haven’t left it. So I can’t mail you. If you come back to this site please answer my questions.

Good Bye

MIRZA YASIR

[email protected]

mirzayasir.paklinks.com

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If Koran Says"Jesus is not alive"(Nauzbillah)then why believe Mirza Ghulam was Jesus or Masiha or whatever why don't you claim that you are Masiha,do it people will start following you too.

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Mirza Sahab:1000th time for you,facts about false religion,after reading this please don't bother to answer ,don't have time and don't want to engage in some useless discussion.
What is Qadiyania (also known as Ahmadayya movement of Islam)
Briefly, during the British Imperialism of India, the British encountered resistance from Muslims who wished to retain their chosen way of life without interference. The result was that Muslim clerics declared a state of Holy War against the British from which the British were to suffer greatly.
In the employ of the British was an Indian who held a high opinion of himself. The British cultivated and pandered to his ego and gave him support and facilities which enable him to create a pseudo Islamic movement. His followers were ignorant people and when he proclaimed himself to be a prophet they accepted.
As soon as he had sufficient followers he announced the desire of the British that Holy Wars against them were invalid and must thereby cease and so the British achieved their aim.

Although the Qadiyania claim to be Muslims they are denounced and condemned by Islamic authorities on the bases that the Koran and Prophetic quotations clearly state that there will never be another Prophet or Messenger after Prophet Muhammad.

Qadiyani followers, are for the most part, well mannered, agreeable people in their ethics, and unfortunately in many instances, you will find them out-performing their contemporary Muslim neighbors surviving on these merits alone and not on the truth.

Khuda Hafiz

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Dear mazloom,

For your first objection, I have explained it many many many times that the new messiah has to be a different person but with the same properties as the old messiah. If you want to read it then go to the thread by soha called “ahmedis”. You will get your answer there

MIRZA YASIR

[email protected]

mirzayasir.paklinks.com

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Dear mazloom,

Your allegations regarding british rule are weak and very old and many people have answered it many times before this. Just in very few words I will give you answer for this allegation because you have saud that you don’t have time to read it.

1… He was not appointed by British government. One proof is that He said that the GOD OF CHRISTIANS IS DEAD. Do how can he be their supporter. Secondly, christains were a big opponent of Mirza Sahib for e.g. Alexander Doi, etc.

2…He didn’t say naything against the teaching of Jihad. Islam has given permission to muslims to fight in two situations. 1..When enemy attacks and you have to defend. 2… When the non-muslim government makes it hard for muslims to practice islam.

So it is pretty obvious that the Britishers always allowed muslims to practice islam. If you are not sure then see the statements of people like Sir Syed, akbar, etc. So if they are not causing any problem then why fight against them. And he said that if you want to get your land, then get it by peace. for e.g discussions,talks etc. and Ahmadi people were always biggest supporters of the formation of pakistan.

Atleast you have agreed that we are good in following islamic values. Thank you.

AGAIN A REQUEST THAT STICK TO THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD DONT GO HERE AND THERE.

KHUDA HAFIZ

MIRZA YASIR

[email protected]

mirzayasir.paklinks.com

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Yaar Mirza Logon
Whenever a prophet dies, he is suppose to be buried at that place, like all the true prophets since Adam aleih salam till Mohammad (salullaho alaihey wasalam)
Tell me where your Mr Mirza died? and how come Mr Mirza was not buried where he died.
App ka mukhlis doost.
Mir

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mirzayasir,

What is 'sher gal?'. I hope you're not swearing at me? Because if you are, then you wouldn't be saying that, if you were standing next to me.

I read most of this thread as well as others related to this topic, and from what the people said, and quoted, i think anyone can establish that God raised Jesus up to the heavens. Even someone who's not a muslim. Unless of course you're saying that there's a contradiction in the quran? Wow! Then you certainly would be the first muslim to make that statement, because all the Pakistanis and Muslims i know, are certain there are no contradictions in the quran. Man, i wouldn't want to be in your shoes when some Iranian Ayatollah passes a fatwa against you.

Jesus is not dead:

Luke 9:55 - 'As the time approached for him to be taken up to heaven, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem.'

Oh and by the way, please no offense, but i don't give my email address to any Tom, Dick or Harry.