jesus as god?

lostsoul · June 9, 2005, 4:20pm

Re: jesus as god?

But Bob (nice name Butt-Bob, never heard of it before :) )

Can u claim to understand Allah 100% ??

bob_chasm · June 9, 2005, 4:21pm

Re: jesus as god?

[quote]
Suroor is correct, he is not God. God and Jesus are two seperate entities (for the millionth time)

Anwaar misunderstands the concept as do quite a few Muslims, including yourself, if you are indeed Muslim. My husband did for a short while also, luckily he is blessed with a good grasp of language and caught on quickly once he read a bit more.

Once again, read the Nicene Creed which I posted. It is quite clear about how they are seperate entities and not the same.
[/quote]

Yes, but I posted the New Catholic dictionary with the following definition for consubstantial, the word used in the Nicene creed:

consubstantial
(Latin: con, with; substantia, substance)

A translation of the Greek, homousios, chosen at the Council of Nicæa (A.D. 325) as the only correct word to express the nature of the Son of God. He is not inferior to the Father, nor posterior, nor merely like unto Him, but identical in substance and in essence with Him. He is truly God, God of very God, consubstantial with the Father, as the Nicene Creed has it, having, or rather, being, the Godhead no less than the Father.

New Catholic Dictionary

So is the dictionary wrong? What do you think I am missing?

minah_pa · June 9, 2005, 4:46pm

Re: jesus as god?

You are missing everything else in the text. One sentence did not describe it fully, as much as you would like to. Take the whole meaning please.

bob_chasm · June 9, 2005, 5:13pm

Re: jesus as god?

I stated:

Yes, but I posted the New Catholic dictionary with the following definition for consubstantial, the word used in the Nicene creed:

consubstantial
(Latin: con, with; substantia, substance)

A translation of the Greek, homousios, chosen at the Council of Nicæa (A.D. 325) as the only correct word to express the nature of the Son of God. He is not inferior to the Father, nor posterior, nor merely like unto Him, but identical in substance and in essence with Him. He is truly God, God of very God, consubstantial with the Father, as the Nicene Creed has it, having, or rather, being, the Godhead no less than the Father.

New Catholic Dictionary

So is the dictionary wrong? What do you think I am missing?

Let me explain, how I am being totally consistent with the entire text:

He is not inferior to the Father, nor posterior, nor merely like unto Him : This doesnt say Jesus is not God
identical in substance and in essence with Him: This doesnt mean Jesus is not God.
He is truly God, : This means Jesus is God.
God of very God: This means Jesus is God.
consubstantial with the Father: This doesnt mean Jesus is NOT God
as the Nicene Creed has it, having, or rather, being, the Godhead no less than the Father: Doesnt mean Jesus is NOT God.

Thus we have six statements in the definition given by the Catholic dictionary, of which two state he is God and four that dont say he is NOT God. There is not a single statement that states Jesus is NOT God. Hence, the meaning is Jesus is God, in context of this definition.

minah_pa · June 9, 2005, 6:02pm

Re: jesus as god?

Bob - in order to compare you must have two seperate things to compare. Identical is a comparison.

He is not inferior to the Father, nor posterior, nor merely like unto Him - This is saying he is not different, that’s all, don’t get mystical or jump ahead, just like the anology I used about us, that could also apply here. We are all those in spirit.
identical in substance and in essence with Him - identical is a comparitive word, again, this could be applied to you and I in a spiritual sense (which is what this is all about).
1. and 4. are not in the Nicene - get back to this in a min
consubstantial with the Father - again a comparison, in order to have a comparison you must have two seperate entities. This is say they are identical in spirit, much the same again as you and I.
1. is not in the Nicene Creed - look again

Since 3, 4, and 6 are from a rather convoluted definition of consubstantial let us put it simply that is means having or formed from same substance.

Consubstantial:

ADJECTIVE: Of the same substance, nature, or essence.

ETYMOLOGY: Middle English consubstancial, from Late Latin cnsubstantilis : Latin com-, com- + Late Latin substantilis, substantial ; see substantial

source:[here](http://%20http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/consubstantial)

 Consubstantial:

Main Entry: con·sub·stan·tial
Pronunciation: "kän(t)-s&b-'stan(t)-sh&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Late Latin consubstantialis, from Latin com- + substantia substance
: of the same substance

source: here

Unless you wish to now argue the definition??

bob_chasm · June 9, 2005, 7:24pm

Re: jesus as god?

I am quoting you the New Catholic dictionary. So, quote a single authentic Catholic website that states jesus was and is not God.

Thap · June 9, 2005, 7:31pm

Re: jesus as god?

Isn’t it just rather simpler having Hazrat Easa (AS) as a prophet.

I mean all this trinity business, everytime I hear it, the person telling me about it, who believes in it, sounds more confused than they end up making me.

minah_pa · June 9, 2005, 7:39pm

Re: jesus as god?

Bob - and I have defined it over and over in both the Catholic way (using the Nicene Creed and the definitions provided) and in a way that even a third grader would understand and you cannot seem to grasp the concept. To myself it seems cut and dried. The Nicene Creed is cut and dried about the two being seperate.

Sine this seems to be a stalemate at this point, rather than repeating myself again, we can agree to disagree about this.

bob_chasm · June 9, 2005, 10:03pm

Re: jesus as god?

I appreciate the fact you have share your personal understanding of the Nicene creed with us on this board. It is quite interesting. I would like to hear more. However, your views contradict the official Roman catholic church dogma. I have provided the New Catholic dictionary as my source. You havent provided a single Catholic source. Hope you can appreciate the difference.

regards,

bob

regards,

bob

bob_chasm · June 9, 2005, 10:28pm

Re: jesus as god?

Not nice.

Seminole · June 9, 2005, 10:36pm

Re: jesus as god?

There are people on this board who are confused about eating shrimp, listening to music and which way to face when praying from an airplane. A little confusion about something as complicated as God and his relationship to his son/prophet really isn't that surprising.

bob_chasm · June 9, 2005, 11:03pm

Re: jesus as god?

So what is your personal belief, minah, that God the Father and His Son, Jesus are two distinct beings, of the same substance and essence, but whereas, the Father is God, the Son is not God?

FrozenFire · June 10, 2005, 2:42am

Re: jesus as god?

im sorry to say this but i still havent got an answer that i can think is right...Im just asking in christian perspective. IF and only IF Jesus AS was God (as christian says) why He used to worship God?

bob_chasm · June 10, 2005, 4:33am

Re: jesus as god?

**

Like I said, the hypostatis argument in Christianity is that Jesus was both fully God and fully human. The worship was what he had to do as someone fully human (he also died like a human). Another way to understand it is to think of God coming in the form of man to show you how to be a perfect human. Since the perfect human has to worship, Jesus as God performed worship to show you how. Hope that explains it.

regards,

bob

FrozenFire · June 10, 2005, 5:05am

Re: jesus as god?

pretty much got the concept …but that’s christian perspective right?

bob_chasm · June 10, 2005, 1:57pm

Re: jesus as god?

Christian, in the broad sense. JWs and Unitarian Christians, for example, dont believe Jesus was God.

gupguppy · June 10, 2005, 7:56pm

Re: jesus as god?

The Biblical God apparently has more than one will... in the Garden of Gethsemane Jesus is reported to supplicate...

"My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will"

So if Jesus is god then the 'Jesus god' has his own will, and the ‘Father god’ has his own will too as this verse shows. Two independent wills do not equate to One God. The will of the 'Jesus god' wants the cup taken away, but he's prepared to give in to the will of the 'Father god'.

bob_chasm · June 11, 2005, 5:33am

Re: jesus as god?

One part of me wants to stay, talk and type but another wants to go to sleep, so I can wake up early tomorrow. Two wills one me. It isnt a good argument, in my opinion.

minah_pa · June 11, 2005, 8:02am

Re: jesus as god?

http://www.stbrigids-kilbirnie.com/Pages/trinity.html

**The Trinity is one. There are not three gods, but one God in three persons. These divine persons do not divide out the one divinity among themselves, but each of them is God whole and entire.

The divine persons are really different from one another. Father, Son and Holy Spi****rit are not simply names for different roles played by the same person. The three persons of the Trinity have different origins:
It is the  Father who generates, 
The Son who is begotten, 
And the Holy  Spirit who proceeds.

The divine persons are related to one another. Even though they are separate persons, this does not deny their real unity. They still share one nature or substance. 

**I tried to find a simple site that laid it out in the least amount of big words.

It is hard for insincere dabblers to understand the meaning and when they do this with out the years of classes any Catholic has, it is understandable and quite predictable that misunderstandings will occur. The same as if I randomly selected isolated sections of the Quran and placed my own definition on it and then espoused as though I know everything I would need to simply because I opened it and read it once or twice. It may even make people who have had the classes in the Mosque or Madrassa for years understandably frustrated and maybe even not take anything I say seriously because my intent is not to learn but to mock.

I am still trying to understand how it is that even though over and over in Biblical text the Father and Son are laid out, side by side as seperate entities, but still lumped together because of a lack of understanding of simple vocabulary of one word in one creed, but fortunately I understand the motivation is again not to learn but to tear down. Sad but expected.

nabeelaejaz · June 11, 2005, 10:19am

Re: jesus as god?

The two wills in you are of first of the Body (Material) and second one of the Soul(Spiritual), hence two things having two wills, that makes them independent to take decision and choose.