Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Society Religion & Philosophy
101

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

First Criticism then love. What is this ? i think you are trying to manipulate our young gereration. i will never read pervazy stuff neverever.

102

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

[quote=18Plus]
First Criticism then love. What is this ? i think you are trying to manipulate our young gereration. i will never read pervazy stuff neverever./quote
dont read nobody forcing u But we should learn arabi and should unterstand quran this is our duty in opinion

103

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

landaleav vbmenu_register(“postmenu_4663863”, true); your point is very important.

Difference between Hadith and Sunnah. I also have realized after reading your post that the problems start here. Our Hadith books are counterparts of Gospels in Christianity of what christ said but recorded by others. We have Quran but no other religion is innow possesion of a direct book by Allah.

Like differences in Gospels & some really funny entries (work of the people) are found in Ahadith books as well. We must differentiate between HAdith and Sunnah. As all over the place it has been said that hold quran and my sunnah. Can any one shed further light on the validity of this concept.

104

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

I have realized that our Shariat (Divine law) is very similar to Jewish law. Jews have two laws. One is written law i.e. Torah and one is oral law i.e. Talmud. We have the same. The written law is Qur’an and Oral law is Sunnah. People have put reports of Prophet Muhammad in hadith (which can be criticized, and even our top scholars have also criticized many hadith as well i.e. it is reported that Imam Bukhari rejected more than 100,000 hadith). Javed Ghamidi believes that the only sound way of finding Sunnah is to see that which traditions have been transmitted in Muslim Ummah to us through perpetual adherence. For example, circumcission is transmittted through perpetual adherence of Muslim Ummah from prophet Muhammad. It’s authenticity is not any historical document but presence of this practice at large in Muslim society and its perpetual adherence in all historical eras. Actually, Imam Shafi’i only said that hadith is the only way of finding Sunnah (which others Imam disagree), but the concept that every thing in hadith is Sunnah actually perpetuated after 10th century when Bukhari and Muslim were used synonimously with Sunnah. Hence, people made very personal things of prophet Muhammad Sunnah as well e.g. eating dates etc. This concept is against many sayings of prophet Muhammad himself. The prophet (pbuh) said:

I am also a human being. When I direct you about something which relates to your religion, take it from me and when I express my own opinion [about something which is outside this sphere] then my status in this regard is nothing more than that of a human being … I had conjectured about something.1 Do not hold me accountable for such things which are based on opinion and conjecture. However, if I say something on behalf of God, take it because I will never forge a lie on God … You very well know about your worldly affairs. (Muslim, Nos: 2263, 2361, 3262)

Hence, what Muslims are fighting with each other are only minor things which are not Sunnah in the first place. I’ve posted at another place the list of Sunnah which Ghamidi has prepared. I am 101% sure that no one can say that Ghamidi included some wrong Sunnah by any Muslim whether Shia or Sunni.

Principles of finding Sunnah by Ghamidi can be read here: renaissance.com.pk/JulSunn2y6.htm Cheers!

105

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Very clever man.

first day in office..
106

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

He runs a program on AAJ Tv and I have heard him with my own ears. He denies Hadith of the Prophet :saw:

So I would rather stay away from him. He is a modernist which some people with vested interests want to project as an “enlightened scholar of Islam”.

All he knows is just talk talk talk… Na sir na paer.

Its a simple rule. Anybody deviating from Quran and Sunnah (both) is ofcourse misguided. Even if you take one on isolation from the other - either Quran or Sunnah …you are bound to go estary.

107

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Deviate from what? If deviation is from other scholars, which we have been told in our lifetime, it is not a crime at all. Even our top scholars have deviated from each other, and even on issues like how to find Sunnah, and interpretation of Qur’an. And if you think that Ghamdi reject some hadith because of some reason, then we should consider all our top Muhaddith as “Munkarin -e-hadith”. Imam Malik collected Muwatta. His scrutining is even tighter than Bukhari. He rejected alot of hadith. As I wrote above, Imam Bukhari rejected more than 100,000 hadith.

With all respect, if this is your criteria, you are going to put all these scholars in the list of “Munkarin -e-hadith”, but I think you haven’t read the debate above!

108

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

well, Laeeq. Had he rejected Hadith al together or rejected a specific Hadith? If a particular hadith, on what grounds he rejected it. Weak sanad or matan not comparable to Quran. Rejection or acceptance of a particulr hadith is a scholarly issue and not to be taken emotionally.

109

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Ghamidi's principles to understand hadith can be read at renaissance.com.pk/JulHadi2y6.htm . If someone has knowledge of traditional hadith scruitining, then he can definitely appreciate that there is nothing wrong with it. These are same principles on which Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Majah, Abu Dawood, Ahmad bin Hambal, Malik ibn Ans, Tirmidhi, Nisai and others have scruitinized hadith as well. As this scruitining is a human work, it will always have defects. But Qur'an and Sunnah are defectless! This is the concept which I love and Ghamidi has proved through his writings. Ghamidi has even tackled those people very well scholarly who even are ready to accept different versions of Qur'an on the basis of some hadith. Ghamidi proves that their Sanad is so weak that it is almost impossible to consider them as hadith and people want to challenge the content of Qur'an with it. I wonder how people accept such demonic hadith which even challenges their Qur'an and its content and are ready to fight with every one who just asks to follow the Qur'an, Sunnah and hadith (which goes along with first two sources)!

The discussion on "Principles to understand Qur'an" can be read at renaissance.com.pk/JanQur2y7.htm especially under "Variant Readings".

110

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

What you are saying regarding Imam Malik and other great Muhaditheen is ok..howevr, they never disagreed on something with a strong chain of narration. I am sure you are aware of the different Hadith classifications.

What I am saying is that I heard him reject something very clear, something which had been agreed upon since centuries. Now in 2K this guy turns up and has a completely new interepretation. How can one compare Mr. Ghamidi to any of the Muhadiseen of the previous times. By that I mean, what work has he done that benefits Islam and Muslims?

And just like you look at him from a different angle, my observation is different than yours. I feel that he is doing harm and creating new divisions.

111

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Would you care to give us the example of any "demonic hadith" you are referring to?

~~~ Missing someone ~~~
112

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Have a look at following hadith:

‘Abd al-Rahman Ibn ‘Abd al-Qari narrated: “ ‘Umar Ibn Khattab said before me: ‘I heard Hisham Ibn Hakim Ibn Hizam reading Surah Furqan in a different way from the one I used to read it, and the Prophet (sws) himself had read out this surah to me. Consequently, as soon as I heard him, I wanted to get hold of him. However, I gave him respite until he had finished the prayer. Then I got hold of his cloak and dragged him to the Prophet (sws). I said to him: “I have heard this person [Hisham Ibn Hakim Ibn Hizam] reading Surah Furqan in a different way from the one you had read it out to me.” The Prophet (sws) said: “Leave him alone [O ‘Umar].” Then he said to Hisham: “Read [it].” ‘Umar said:] “He read it out in the same way as he had done before me.” [At this,] the Prophet (sws) said: “It was revealed thus.” Then the Prophet (sws) asked me to read it out. So I read it out. [At this], he said: “It was revealed thus; this Qur’an has been revealed in Seven Ahruf. You can read it in any of them you find easy from among them. Malik Ibn Anas, Mu’atta, vol. 1 (Egypt: Dar Ahya al-Turath, n.d.), 201, (no. 473).

14th century great Hadith scholar, Suyuti has said about this hadith that it is Mutashabihat and it’s apparent message cannot be accepted. But because Muslims want to accept this hadith irrespective of its consequences, they accept it. Similar case is with those hadith which goes completely against Qur’an and talks about compilation of Qur’an in Umar and Uthman’s (ra) times, as most of these hadith are coming from Ibn Shihab Zuhri, about which Imam Layth Ibn Sa‘d in his letter to Imam Malik said:

And when we would meet Ibn Shihab, there would arise a difference of opinion in many issues. When any one of us would ask him in writing about some issue, he, in spite of being so learned, would give three very different answers, and he would not even be aware of what he had already said. It is because of this that I have left him – something which you did not like. (Ibn Qayyim, I‘lam al-Muwaqqi‘in, vol. 3 (Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, n.d.), 96.)

These hadith are not only against Qur’an (see 87:7-6 and 76:16-19) but also against many many hadith. For example:

The reading of Abu Bakr, ‘Umar, ‘Uthman and Zayd Ibn Thabit and that of all the muhajirun and the ansar was the same. They would read the Qur’an according to the qira’at al-‘ammah. This is the same reading which was read out twice by the Prophet (sws) to Gabriel in the year of his death Gabriel. Zayd Ibn Thabit was also present in this reading [called] the ‘ardah-i akhirah. It was this very reading that he taught the Qur’an to people till his death. (Zarkashi, al-Burhan fi Ulum al-Qur’an, 2nd ed., vol. 1 (Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 1980), 237.)

Ibn Sirn writes:The reading on which the Qur’an was read out to the Prophet (sws) in the year of his death is the same according to which people are reading the Qur’an today.(Suyuti, al-Itqan fi Ulum al-Qur’an, 2nd ed., vol. 1 (Baydar: Manshurat al-Radi, 1343 AH), 177.)

Each year the Prophet Muammad (sws) would be read out the Qur’an once; however, the year he died it was read out to him twice.(Bukhari, No: 4712.)

Above three mentioned ahadith are telling very clearly that Qur’an was always spoken in one dialect, and many other hadith tells us that it was the dialect of Quraish. Now tell me! Are you going to challenge the verses of Qur’an and alot of Sahih and Mutawatir hadith at the expense of these hadith. By the way, our Ulema classify these hadith as Mutawatir, but the reality is that these hadith are ahad (isolate) and can never challenge Qur’an or Mutawatir traditions in Ummah.

113

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

landleav. What are these seven ahruf? May be it is the way of pronouncing that they were both different not in content but in pronunciation. I do not know arabic but translation uses the term in a different way which i understand is about pronunciation not text. As in case of difference in text the wording would be like"he was reading something else which was not part of Quran " as he knew quran or words to that effect.

Even the latter hadith is not a proof of some sort of one dialect of Quran. i do not understand what is the debate behind this hadith

114

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Ahruf means words, but Ghamidi says that maybe they point to different pronunciation (for which the actual words are: lughat and lahjat) but then Ghamidi writes, in this case, the text of the Hadith itself negates this meaning. It is known that both ‘Umar (rta) and Hisham (rta) belonged to the same tribe: the Quraysh. Obviously, people of the same tribe could not have had different pronunciation.

Hadith starting with “The reading of Abu Bakr” is definitely a proof of one reading. And Qur’an says itself. Kindly see above verses plus The Qur’an has specified that it was revealed in the language of the Prophet’s tribe: the Quraysh (See for example: 19:97, 44:58).

The reason for specifying this case is just to show by an example that most of the hadith are ahad (isolated reports) and they should follow Qur’an and Sunnah rather we should make Qur’an and Sunnah follow them. And this is what Ghamidi also says.

115

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Brothers! I am afraid but I am not going to continue this discussion any more as I've alot of assignments and workload on me these days. But before I leave, I would like to thank Usman Shahid, Laeeq Khan, 18plus, Imran Jaff, and MKF for actively participating in this debate. And also Eid Mubarak from me to all of you!

Wassalaam!

116

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

The debate is too complex for me to understand. Lets hope our scholars put us wise on this. However i totally reject the stance of ghamidi bashers that without reading his books they declare him a heretic on mere heresay. This is utter non sense, we may agree on something and may not on other. In any case i like his style of argumentation.

117

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Eid Mubarak to you as well Landaleave, indeed you put forward the answers i wanted from this thread and i believe that i have learnt a lot from your posts. Thanx Usman, Khanbabax, 18plus & finally Laeeq. Eid Mubarak & Happy New Year to all of you who contributed on this thread.

regards

MKF

118

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Thanks for the answers. Even at my side I am dealing with soooooo many guests on Eid.

Eid Mubarak and a Happy new year to landaleav, Usman Shahid, 18plus, Imran Jaff, and MKF also.

119

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Happy eid Mubarak To All guppies Specially Mkf Bhai 18 plus Landaleva Mfjkd Laeeq bhai cricket playa Pakistan Abroad Khanbabax usman shahdid PyaricGuriya Gensec Dawa i dil and Our beloved Armughal and Salve Bhai.Hope u r enjoying Ur eid days
Wsalam

120

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Eid Mubarak to you too Imran.