Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Society Religion & Philosophy
241

Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

thanx

[quote]

And I think ethics (Ikhlaqiat) is the one about which prophet said that it will be the heaviest on the Judgement day in the scale. You believe it or not, I'd love to listen to a more scholarly criticism of Ghamidi, as I personally believe that what Ghamidi has written is definitely different from our traditionalist understanding of Islam and this should be scruitinized properly. As it can be very dangerous or a great blessing of God on us as a good scholar is definitely a blessing and they are not born everyday.
[/quote]

no one need scholarly criticism to prove Ghamidi wrong

Go and check out the 7 points of proving the sunnah not a sunnah by Ghamdi

from thoes
where are the proves for these

1.that Hazoor PBUH done things without the approval of Allah Almight **
**(proof necessary , if you fail then i will show you that all is by Allah )
2.he had revived them as part of the religion of Abraham (sws) and given them religious sanction
(although every one knows that he was illeterate then how can he study the religion of Abraham SWS and make them islamic )
totally illogical
3.words or acts of the Prophet (sws) will not be called Sunnah
then whose words will be called sunnah

4.prohibition cannot be termed as Sunnah
who declares that, does Allah or Rasool

  1. Those guidelines of the Prophet (sws) cannot be regarded as Sunnah the nature of which is fully sufficient to show that the Prophet (sws) never wanted to constitute them as Sunnah.

see your exmaple here as well
clearly wants to change what Hazoor PBUH told and want to change nimaz woow

you always said that Ghamidi always give opinion from Quran o Sunnah
then bring prove, but you always run from here

Being Avoided, I Don't Wanna Be
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Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

With all respect, there are ordinary people who claim themselves to deny prophets on the basis of their illogical arguments. Hence you don’t need to be a scholar to reject someone bluntly.

You criticized in such a way that I thought you just want to insult. Hence I didn’t feel like answering. But if you want to understand them in detail. I can help you understand these points.

The proof are the following Ahadith:

I am also a human being. When I direct you about something which relates to your religion, take it from me and **when I express my own opinion [about something which is outside this sphere] then my status in this regard is nothing more than that of a human being … I had conjectured about something.1 Do not hold me accountable for such things which are based on opinion and conjecture. **However, if I say something on behalf of God, take it because I will never forge a lie on God … You very well know about your worldly affairs. (Muslim, Nos: 2263, 2361, 3262)

And please don’t approximate this hadith according to your understanding that prophet was prohibiting writing of hadith. What the writing of Qur’an has to do with this hadith :confused: If you don’t want to accept this hadith, say it!

Do you think a person needs to be literate to know traditions of a certain group of people? These traditions were already being followed by the Ishmaelites even before prophet. Before I give you examples, Qur’an asks us to follow traditions of Abraham in following words:

Then We revealed to you to follow the ways of Abraham, who was true in faith and was not among the polytheists. (16:123)

Just to give you a quick go through some of the traditions:
1-Arabs were already circumcizing their male off-springs and as well Jews. Jews even circumcize today.
2-Fasting: Believers! Fasting has been made obligatory upon you as it was made upon those before you so that you become fearful of God. (2:83)
3-Prayer: Ibrahim (as) prayed to God so that his progeny would keep praying (14:40). About Ishmael (as), Qur’an says that he use to ask his households to pray (19:55), Qur’an says about children of Ishaaq (as) and Yaqoob (as) that they use to advice to pray (11:87), God asked prophet Mosa to pray (40:14). Abu Zar Ghaffari says that I’ve been praying three years before I even met prophet Muhammad. And someone asked that for who you used to pray. And he answered for God(Ibn Hajr 2/274, Bukhari-Fath ul bari). There are so many evidences I’ll have to spend one hour to write all the evidences. For more detail, see Qanoon-e-Ibadat from Javed Ahmed Ghamidi
4-Hajj: Arabs use to perform hajj even before prophet Muhammad. And prophet Muhammad has performed Hajj even before his prophecy. As according to Bukhari:

I lost my camel. On the day of ‘Arafah, while trying to locate it I went up to the field of ‘Arafat and found that Muhammad (sws) was standing there[5]. I said to myself: ‘By God! He belongs to the Quraysh; then what he is doing here?’ (Bukhari, No: 1664)

I can write on this for hours. Even alot of work has been done and it has been shown that basic islamic worship rituals were also there is Jewish traditions which died over period of time, but Muslims have kept these traditions alive. Alhamdulillah!

You took this saying of Ghamidi out of context. The complete paragraph is:

Thus, if something is originally based on the Qur’an and the Prophet (sws) has merely explained it or followed it in exactly the same way he was directed to, then these words or acts of the Prophet (sws) will not be called Sunnah; they will be termed as the Prophet’s explanation and exemplary manner in which he acted upon them. Only those things will be regarded as Sunnah which are originally based on the words, practices or tacit approvals of the Prophet (sws), and they cannot be regarded as following a directive of the Qur’an or an explanation of a directive mentioned in it.

To explain it further, let me quote you a saying of famous Islamic theologian of 15th century:

Sunnah is either an explanation of the Qur’an or an addition to the Qur’an. If it is an explanation, then its status is secondary otherwise, it will only be considered an addition if it is not discussed by the Qur’an. Imam Shatibi. Al-Muwafiqaat fi Usool al-Sharia, 5(4)

If you didn’t understand above saying, please let me know and I’ll try to explain further.

Again you took it out of context again. The actual paragraph is:

Things which merely state some aspect of human nature cannot be regarded as Sunnah. Beasts having canine teeth, wild birds having claws and tamed donkeys have been prohibited by the Prophet (sws); however, this prohibition is only a delineation of human nature, which is averse to eating such things. Hence this prohibition cannot be termed as Sunnah.

To explain it, let me give you an example. Hairs grow on head. Hence it is natural to have hair on head. But to trim them or not to trim them is not of any interest to religion. **The things which were of interest to religion has already been told by the Prophet Muhammad. **

Who can disagree with the prophet Muhammad. If he doesn’t want to make something Sunnah, we don’t have any right to make it Sunnah. The example of utterances in the qa‘dah of prayer is very valid as prophet Muhammad never standardised any version of utterance for qa‘dah, rather it is our scholars who standardized it. If you have a hadith in which prophet Muhammad standardized it, please bring forward.

Usman! I think I’ve answered your questions, if you have any further confusion do let me know. :slight_smile:

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Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

do i say i had rejected the hadees
read my above words again

also see this from Quran
002.143
YUSUFALI: Thus, have We made of you an Ummat justly balanced, that ye might be witnesses over the nations, and the Messenger a witness over yourselves; and We appointed the Qibla to which thou wast used, only to test those who followed the Messenger from those who would turn on their heels (From the Faith). Indeed it was (A change) momentous, except to those guided by Allah. And never would Allah Make your faith of no effect. For Allah is to all people Most surely full of kindness, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you. And We appointed the qiblah which ye formerly observed only that We might know him who followeth the messenger, from him who turneth on his heels. In truth it was a hard (test) save for those whom Allah guided. But it was not Allah’s purpose that your faith should be in vain, for Allah is Full of Pity, Merciful toward mankind.

now if some one claims that Hazoor PBUH have done everything on his own should look at this verse of Quran
Allah is saying that he had appointed the first Qibla
my Question is that where is that verse when Allah appoint the first Qibla and muslim starts worshipping by pointing to baitul muqadas
these people claim that this was done by Hazoor PBUH himself not guided by Allah
but see here Allah is saying that Allah have guided him

where in the whole Quran , Allah appointed the first Qibla, but in this verse he SWT is refering that he appointed that qiblah

where is that verse , if only Quran is the revelation and hadees is not , then find out that verse

the Above verse surely describes that there are other revelations to Hazoor PBUH along with Quran , so Quran is not the only revelation and hadees are also the revelations of Allah SWT
Hazoor PBUH have never said anything from his own , he was always guided by Allah SWT

if you still persist and bring out the misquoted hadees then my brother bring also the verse where Allah have appointed the first Qibla for muslim , in this way you will declare that Sunnah / hadees is not revelation ie guidence by Allah and Hazoor PBUH have done most things from his own

  • The day-to-day life of the Prophet was an open book for all to see. In fact a revelation came asking people to give the Prophet (pbuh) privacy in his own home. If the Prophet had been meeting people who told him what to say as a revelation from God, this would not have been hidden for very long.

  • The extremely prominent Quraish nobles who followed the Prophet and accepted Islam were wise and intelligent men who would have easily noticed anything suspicious about the way in which the Prophet brought the revelations to them - more so since the Prophetic mission lasted 23 years.

  • The enemies of the Prophet kept a close watch on him in order to find proof for their claim that he was a liar - they could not point out even a single instance when the Prophet may have had a secret rendezvous with particular Jews and Christians.

  • It is inconceivable that any human author of the Qur’an would have accepted a situation in which he received no credit whatsoever for originating the Qur’an.
    Thus, historically and logically it cannot be established that there was a human source for the Qur’an

Similarities between the teaching of Hazoor PBUH and other prophets does not necessarily mean that the former has been copied from the latter. In fact it gives evidence that both of them are based on a common third source; all divine revelations came from the same source - the one universal God. No matter what human changes were introduced into some of these Judeo-Christian and other older religious scriptures that had distorted their originality, there are some areas that have remained free from distortion and thus are common to many religions.
It is true that there are some similar parallels but this is not sufficient to accuse Muhummad (pbuh) of compiling or copying from the chirstens and jews. The same logic would then also be applicable to teachings of Christianity and Judaism and thus one could wrongly claim that Jesus (pbuh) was not a genuine Prophet (God forbid) and that he simply copied from the Old Testament.
The similarities between the two signify a common source that is one true God and the continuation of the basic message of monotheism and not that the later prophets have plagiarised from the previous prophets.
If someone copies during an examination he will surely not write in the answer sheet that he has copied from his neighbour or Mr. XYZ. Prophet Muhummad (pbuh) gave due respect and credit to all the previous prophets (pbut). The Qur’an also mentions the various revelations given by Almighty God to different prophets.

but bring proof that who told Hazoor PBUH that thoes prophet prays
do that was Allah or some human being
or Hazoor PBUH see someone doing that and just copied

nice information for me , can you bring out any online reference
due to anavailability of books these days

do the hajj of thoese days was similar to Hajj of PBUH
doesn’t Quran says to do Hajj or not

do Hazoor PBUH performed Hajj before Allah had told him or not

All historical records available show that Muhummad (pbuh) had made only three trips outside Makkah before his Prophethood

  • At the age of 9 he accompanied his mother to Madinah
  • Between the age of 9 and 12, he accompanied his uncle Abu-Talib on a business trip to Syria
  • At the age of 25 he led Khadija’s Caravan to Syria It is highly imaginary to assume that the Qur’an resulted from the occasional chats and meetings with the Christians or Jews from any of the above three trips

The explanation of the meaning of the word or sentence or verse for which man needs an explanation, most of which bear reference to ‘Mujmal’ (comprehensive) verses or ‘Amah’ (general) verses or ‘Mutlaq’ (unbounded) verses.
Then comes the Sunnah and clarifies the sentences and specifies the verses called ‘Amah’ and defines what is ‘mutlaq’ that is, in reference to the saying (Qaul) of The Prophet (peace be upon him), his deed (Fi’l) and the act he confirmed (Iqrar).
The Necessity of Sunnah to Understand The Qur’an and Parables
Allah says The male thief and female thief cut off their hands (5:38) is a fitting example of that. The thief in it is general like the hand.
The oral tradition explains the first of them and restricts it by ‘as-sareq’ (the thief) who steals something worth a fourth of a Dinar [2] according to the saying of the Prophet (SAW) There is no cutting - of the hand - unless the thing stolen is worth a fourth of a Dinar or more (Bukhari & Muslim) the two sheikhs have recorded this Hadeeth.
Again, the other is explained by the action of the Prophet (SAW) or the action of his companions and his confirmation. They used to cut the hand of the thief from the wrist as is known in the work of Hadeeth. The oral tradition explains the hand mentioned in the verse on Tayammum (dust ablution) And rub therewith your faces and hands (5:6) is also the palm of the hand as is stated in a Hadeeth Tayammum is the wiping of the face and the hands recorded by the two sheikhs and Ahmad and others from a tradition reported by Ammar bin Yaasir (may Allah be pleased with them).
There are other verses that cannot be completely understood except through Sunnah. They are:

  1. It is whose who believe and confuse not their beliefs with wrong, ‘dhulm’ that are (truly) in security for they are on (right) guidance (6:82).
    The companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) understood the word ‘dhulm’ in its general sense to mean every wrong doing, even if it be little. On this account the verse is regarded as dubious and they said, “O Messenger of Allah, which of us did not involve his faith with obscurity?” He (peace be upon him) said; It is not that. It is only the ‘shirk’(3). Have you not heard what Luqman said: Verily, ‘shirk’ is a very great sin (dhulm) (31:13). The two sheikhs have recorded it with others.
  2. Allah says: When you travel on earth, there is no blame on you to shorten your prayer, for fear the unbelievers will persecute you (4:101). It is obvious from this verse that fear is a pre-requisite for the shortening of prayers. Some of the Prophet’s companions asked him: “Why do we shorten our prayers while we feel safe?” He said: It is a charity from Allah, so accept it (Muslim).
    Allah says: The carcass and it’s blood are forbidden to you (5:3). In explanation of this verse, the corpse of locusts, fish, the livers, spleen of blood are lawful. So the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: He has made two dead things and blood lawful: the locusts and the fish, the liver and the spleen.
    Baihaqi and others have recorded it as ‘marfu’ type of hadeeth as also ‘mauquf’ type. The ‘isnad’ or ‘mauquf’ is authentic and it is as good as ‘marfu’ tradition, since it is not stated in the form of a ‘ra’y’ (decision based on one individual’s judgment not on Qur’an and Sunnah).
  3. Allah says: I find not in the message received by me by inspiration any (food) forbidden to be taken by one who wishes to, unless it is dead meat or blood poured forth or the flesh of swine, for it is an abomination, or what is impious (meat) on which a name has been invoked other than Allah’s (6:145).
    The Sunnah has forbidden many things not mentioned in the verse mentioned above, as for example in the saying of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him): All predatory animals with tusk and every bird with claw are forbidden for consumption. There are other traditions which have forbidden the consumption of such animals as the Prophet (SAW) is reported to have said on the Day of Khaibar: Allah and His Messenger have prohibited the consumption of domesticated asses, for they are filth. The two sheikhs have reported it.
  4. Allah says: I find not in the message received by me by inspiration any (food) forbidden to be taken by one who wishes to, unless it is dead meat or blood poured forth or the flesh of swine, for it is an abomination, or what is impious (meat) on which a name has been invoked other than Allah’s (6:145).
    The Sunnah has forbidden many things not mentioned in the verse mentioned above, as for example in the saying of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him): All predatory animals with tusk and every bird with claw are forbidden for consumption. There are other traditions which have forbidden the consumption of such animals as the Prophet (SAW) is reported to have said on the Day of Khaibar: Allah and His Messenger have prohibited the consumption of domesticated asses, for they are filth. The two sheikhs have reported it.
  5. Allah says: Who has forbidden the adornment of Allah which He has produced for His servants, and the things clean and pure (which he has provided for sustenance) (7:32).
    The Sunnah, too, has forbidden some adornments, and this is evident from the Prophet (SAW) who is reported to have met some of his companions, and had a silk garment in one hand, and gold in the other, and said: These are prohibited to Muslim males, lawful to females. The hadeeths in their interpretation are many and well known in both the authentic collections of hadeeths, and others and the like of many examples well known to scholars familiar with hadeeth and Islamic Jurisprudence.
    From what has been stated above, O Muslim Brethren, you can see the importance attached to Sunnah in Islamic Law. **When we divert our intention again to the examples mentioned beside others not mentioned, we are certain that there is no way to understand the Qur’an correctly except in association with the interpretation of the Sunnah. **

A woman came to Ibn Mas’ud, may Allah be pleased with him, and asked him:
“Are you the one who says: 'May Allah’s curse be on ‘Al-Namisat’ and ‘Al-Motanamisat’(4) and those who tattoo?”
He said “Yes.”
She said, “I read the Book of Allah (Al-Quran) from beginning to its end. I did not find what you have said.”
He told her: “If you have read it, you would have found it. As for your reading what the Messenger teaches you, take it, and what he forbids you, avoid doing it.”
She said, “Certainly.”
He said: "I have heard the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) say:
“May Allah’s Curse be on the Al-Namisat.”
(Bukhari and Muslim)
Inadequacy of Philology to understand The Qur’an
From what has been stated above, it is clear that there is no scope for anyone with all his Arabic Scholarship to understand the glorious Qur’an, without the help of the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him), his sayings and actions.
The companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) were the most knowledgeable in the language, which The Qur’an was revealed in, when it was not blemished by the incorrectness of the common folks knowledge or their grammatical mistakes. Yet, they erred in understanding the verses quoted above when they relied on language alone.
It is self-evident that a man well-informed of the Sunnah is more appropriate to understand The Qur’an and deduce the rules from it than one who is ignorant of it

The Sunnah which has an important bearing on Islamic Law is only the Sunnah confirmed by scientific channels, and authentic chains of narrations known to the learned in regard to hadeeths and the background of the narrators.
It is not the one which is found in different works of Tafseers (commentaries of The Qur’an) and Islamic jurisprudence (fiqh), and in different writings of longing, intimidation, advices, and admonitions, etc…
They contain weak, spurious, and fabricated hadeeths, of which Islam absolves.A major part of it is recorded in two huge books namely “A chain of weak and fabricated hadeeths and their evil impact on the community.” Their number up to date have reached approximately four thousand hadeeths
It is obligatory on the learned, especially those who spread the knowledge of fiqh and legal opinions among the public, that they shouldn’t dare to argue with hadeeth unless it is well-attested. Books of jurisprudence, which they refer to, are normally filled with traditions which are not well-attested, nor have any bases, as is well-known to the learned.

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Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Usman! you are still supposing that Ghamadee rejects all sunnah and hadiths while it is not the case. He says that all the Ahadiths as reported by the people may not have been revealations. Only those where he specifically ordered something about Islam are supposed to be revealations.

And by the way, the Ahadiths reported as revelations are classified as Hadith Qudsee.

Prove me from Ghamdee's writings that he says that Ahadith are totally fallible. Ahadith about any deeni Ahkam are always with Allah's hikmat but if he says that you know more about worldly affairs, you should trust him rather than conjecturing.

What is the basic problem you have with Ghamadee, you say he rejects Ahadiths. Where has he said that we should not consult Ahadith. Please Quote.

You are simply dreaming that he believes these stupid things but i think you are only imaginig.

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Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Who refutes sunnah as you or the author portrays (whom you have copied/pasted).

What scientific channels, are you talking about. You must be aware that science can always be peer reviewed and criticized, while you do not let any one criticize the channels used by scholars to find the saying of the prophets.

Who declares the chain of narration authentic? Obviously you always say that bring the proof from Quran aur Sunnah. Where is your proof of authenticity in this case. Here you will say that those people were very learned. I ask you that has the knowledge finished with them. Can't we have equal or more learned people now?

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Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Usman! These are all your imaginations that Ghamidi believes that the Prophet never received anyother Divine help other than Qur'an. But for us, what the prophet has left is Qur'an and Sunnah (which is present in Ummah in practice without any flaw just like Qur'an is with us without any flaw). On the contrary Ahadith are collected by individuals and then transmitted to us. Their stature is paramount in understanding the life of prophet. But do you want us to consider something equivalent to Qur'an about which our top Muhaddith has worked and sometimes have disagreed as well. By this you mean, Imam Malik and Imam Bukhari were prophets? They can never make mistake!! Those people who met them were all angels? They could never tell lies about chain of narration. If this is your conclusion, then I think you are not even aware of history of Islam and evolution of Islamic law.

But the real fact is that you are denying sayings of prophet Muhammad yourself and you haven't given any satisfactory explanation for those Ahadith in which Prophet Muhammad says that he is fallible in worldly affairs. You only want to accept those Ahadith which goes along your own understanding of Islam.

And thank you MKF for your valuable comments.

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Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Personally, I respect all the great work done by our Muhaddithin and I’ve stated above many times that it should get the status which these Sahih hadith really deserve. As good Muhaddith has scruitinized correct Ahadith from incorrected Ahadith. But western study on hadith compilation is different. Modern historians point out that a chain of authorities may be easily forged and that rejection of some relators implies the victory of one thought over the others. On the contrary, Qur’an and Sunnah practices which were instituted by the prophet himself i.e. prayer, hajj, Zakah, circumcision etc. are almost impossible to argue with. Very few western scholars consider them doubtful, and most of them accept their origin from prophet Muhammad. Encyclopedia of Islam by Brill Academic writes on behalf of Walsh that now western scholarship is at a consensus that Qur’an is atleast not a production of Muhammad’s (sws) concious state of mind. But no sane person is ready to say the same thing about all hadith. And this was never even said by our top scholars. And even when this case was put infront of Imam Shafi’, he only said that Sunnah is equivalent to revelation of God and it can only be found through Sahih hadith, but our scholars even exagerated this concept and they included all hadith into Sunnah. I’d agree with Imam Shafi’ that Sunnah is as authoritative and hence should be authentic as Qur’an is, but I’d disagree with later scholars.

And I know Usman! you can’t resist in disagreeing with me on my above statement. But before you say something, please try to understand those hadith which I quoted before.

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Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

But I think Usman! you haven't understood the basic difference in Ghamidi and our previous top scholars. The difference is not on the fact that sayings of the prophet should be given the status in religion or not. But real difference is that Ghamidi doesn't follow the opinion of traditional scholars in some fields. For example, Ghamidi never rejected hadith of killing a apostate. But he has an excellent explanation for it, which he has deduced from the over-all structure of Qur'an and if you look at the complete life of the Prophet. Hence, before you will start fighting again, please first try to understand that where is the difference. Because, once the problem will be defined properly, criticism will also be of good quality. :)

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Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

In Mizan, Under principles to understand Qur'an, Ghamidi has criticized traditionalist understanding of Qur'an in following word. Though, he has also answered each of these points in detail, but just to make readers absorb the content, I am just giving the criticism:

The Final Authority

The Qur’an is a mizan (scale that tells good from evil) and a furqan (distinguisher between good and evil) on this earth and a muhaymin (guardian) over other divine scriptures:

اللَّهُ الَّذِي أَنزَلَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ وَالْمِيزَانَ (17:42)

It is God who has revealed with truth the Book which is this scale [of justice]. (42:17)

In this verse, the letter waw is for explication, and thus the word mizan is actually used to connote al-kitab. The verse means that the Almighty has revealed the Qur’an which is a scale of justice meant to distinguish good from evil. It is the only scale that weighs every thing else, and there is in no scale in which it can be weighed:

تَبَارَكَ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ الْفُرْقَانَ عَلَى عَبْدِهِ لِيَكُونَ لِلْعَالَمِينَ نَذِيرًا (1:25)

Blessed be He who has revealed al-furqan to His servant that it may warn the whole world. (25:1)

The Qur’an is also a furqan in the same sense, ie a book which the final and absolute verdict to distinguish truth from falsehood. This word also connotes the fact that this Book is the standard on which everything needs to be judged and is a decisive word on matters which relate to religion. Every one must turn to it only to resolve differences of opinion. Nothing can be a judge on it; it shall reign supreme in the dominion of religion and every person is bound not make it subservient to any other thing:

وَأَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِنًا عَلَيْهِ فَاحْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءهُمْ عَمَّا جَاءكَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ (5: 48)

And [O Prophet!] We have revealed to you the Book with the truth in confirmation of the Book before it, and standing as a guardian over it. Therefore, give judgement among men according to the guidance revealed by God and do not yield to their whims by swerving from the truth revealed to you. (5:48)

Here the word used to connote the above sense is muhaymin (guardian). It is an adjective formed from the wordsهَيْمَنَ فُلاَنٌ عَلَى كَذَا which means “a guardian” and “a protector”. In this verse, the Qur’an has been regarded as a muhaymin on the previous scriptures. It means that the Qur’an is the real authentic and trustworthy version of the Book of God. Thus when the texts of other scriptures were lost to posterity and their translations were greatly tampered with, it was this Qur’an which was reposed with the status of judging between the right and wrong of those scriptures. Whatever it declares to be right is right and whatever it declares to be wrong is wrong and must necessarily be rejected.

....
....
Points on which Ghamidi differs

However, there are certain questions, which might create doubts in the minds of certain people in this regard:

Firstly, there exist at some places differences of reading the Qur’an. These differences are not only due to a difference in pronouncing words but at times are also of the sort which effect the meanings they convey. For example, if the word أَرْجُلَكُمْ in (5:5) can be read both in the accusative and in the genitive, then how can it be said that with certainty on the basis of the Qur’an whether in wudu feet need to be washed or just wiped.

Secondly, what we understand from the Qur’an is understood from its words and the way in which its sentences are constructed. **The disciplines on which this understanding is dependent – syntax, morphology and lexicography etc – are not definitive (dhanni). **How then can it be said that the meanings which words convey are absolutely certain? This question has been raised by Imam Razi in the following words:

دلالة الألفاظ لأنها موقوفة على نقل اللغات ونقل الإعرابات والتصريفات مع أن أول أحوال تلك الناقلين أنهم كانوا آحادا ورواية الآحاد لا تفيد إلا الظن وأيضا فتلك الدلائل موقوفة على عدم الاشتراك وعدم المجاز وعدم النقل وعدم الإجمال وعدم التخصيص وعدم المعارض العقلي فإن بتقدير حصوله يجب صرف اللفظ إلى المجاز ولا شك أن اعتقاد هذه المقدمات ظن محض والموقوف على الظن أولى أن يكون ظنا

The intentionality of a text is speculative because it is dependent on the transmission of words with their meanings, declensions and inflections. Moreover, the transmitters were ahad (few) and it is acknowledged about such transmitters that what they have transmitted cannot be taken to be totally preserved in its original form. Moreover, determining this intentionality of the text is dependent on that fact that the same word may stand for more than one entity, a word may be used figuratively, a word may have changed its meanings, a word may have been used concisely, a word may be used without limiting its meaning or used in contradiction to some logical premise because if there is a such a contradiction, then it is essential that a word be understood to be used figuratively. Undoubtedly, all these premises are accepted because of their speculative natures and what is based on speculation, is all the more speculative. Razi, al-Tafsir al-Kabir, 1st ed., vol. 1 (Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-‘Ilmiyyah, 1421 AH), 34.

Thirdly, it has been mentioned in the Qur’an that its certain verses are muhkam and certain others are mutashabih, and the Qur’an itself has specified about the latter that only God knows their meaning. This strips the Qur’an of its status of the final judge. If we are not able to distinguish the muhkam from the mutashabih, and are also unable to understand what the mutashabih mean then how can we determine the purport of the Qur’an in these verses, and how can we regard it to be a final authority on the basis of this purport on other things?

Fourthly, there are certain Ahadith which seemingly alter the meaning of the Qur’an. Our scholars at some instances call it naskh (abrogation) and at others call it as tahdid, takhsis or taqyid. If this is accepted then how can the Qur’an have the status of being the mizan and the furqan referred to above?

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Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Very brief answers from Mizan in a few senteces can be given as

Qur’an is only what is recorded in the mushaf, and which, except for some areas of North Africa, is recited by a vast majority of the Muslim ummah. None else except the reading on which this Qur’an is recited is the Qur’an or can be presented in the capacity and status of the Qur’an. Thus we think that this question does not even arise.

Ghamidi agrees with Shah Isma‘il Shahid and quotes him:

A person who has even the slightest skill of appreciating language style blatantly knows that this view point is based on gross and multiple ignorance because the meaning for which a word stands for is based on perpetuation. Thus the question does not even arise for any discussion on the issue of the authenticity of the narratots. Shah Isma‘il Shahid, ‘Abaqat, 5.

Here Ghamidi agrees with Amin Ahsan Islahi and quotes his saying:

The reality to which these [mutashbihat point] is itself very clear and obvious. Human intellect can understand that part of it which is essential for it to understand. However, since it belongs to an unseen world, the Qur’an mentions it through parables and similes so that students of the Qur’an can understand it as per their capabilities and consider that only God knows what their real form and shape is.** These [mutashbihat] relate to attributes and works of God or to the reward and punishment of the Hereafter. We are able to understand them to the extent we need to understand them, and this increases our knowledge and faith but if we go beyond this and start to seek what is their real form and shape, then this will only lead us astray.** The result of this is that while wanting to clear one doubt from the mind, a person ends up gathering many more; so much so, in this quest to know more he loses what he had gained and refutes very clear facts just because he is not able to ascertain their form and shape. Amin Ahsan Islahi, Tadabbur-i Qur’an, 2nd ed., vol. 2 (Lahore: Faran Foundation, 1986), 25-26.

The issue of abrogation or limiting of the Qur’an by the Hadith has arisen out of a lack of proper understanding and deliberation. In reality, no Hadith has abrogated a Qur’anic verse or limited its scope of application and thus there arises no doubt from this angle on the status of the Qur’an as the Furqan and the Mizan.** When people were not able to understand certain stylistic features of the Qur’an and the background and perspective of certain verses, they were also not able to understand the words of the Prophet (sws) regarding these areas.** … and then he explains that only Qur’an can limit the scope of another Qur’anic verse…

Above quotes were taken from http://renaissance.com.pk/JanQur2y7.htm. I think this discussion has become too technical to be discussed on this forum!!!

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Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

yes he do based on his will
no other criteria

[quote]

He says that all the Ahadiths as reported by the people may not have been revealations. Only those where he specifically ordered something about Islam are supposed to be revealations.

[/quote]

he who , are you saying about Ghamdi

[quote]

And by the way, the Ahadiths reported as revelations are classified as Hadith Qudsee.

[/quote]

thoes are called as direct words of Allah
if you say that only Hadith Qudsee are revelation
again i will say
bring out the Hadith Qudsee where Allah have ordered to pray nimaz by directing towards first Qibla

[quote]

Prove me from Ghamdee's writings that he says that Ahadith are totally fallible.

[/quote]

see what he said about music, dance etc
see what he said about beard ( a clear cut sunnah ) still he didn't want to have that ( what will you call this )
plz don't again come with ala bala shala
if you say that beard is not sunnah ( bring a single hadees that hazoor PBUH have ever shaved )

what you call this. rejection of ahadees or not
i know again he will again come with big takreer , that Hazoor PBUH didn't wanted that bala bala
does he understand Hazoor PBUH better then Sahaba
only answer in Yes or no

[quote]

Ahadith about any deeni Ahkam are always with Allah's hikmat but if he says that you know more about worldly affairs, you should trust him rather than conjecturing.

[/quote]

how can i trust a person
who say Hazoor PBUH doesn't understand the Quran but he
ayat about Perda Hazoor PBUH didn't understand but he
about ahkam about pictures Hazoor PBUH didn't understand but he
about ahkam about music Hazoor PBUH didn't understand but he

the one who doesn't consider Hazoor PBUH a model in every aspect to be copied

[quote]

What is the basic problem you have with Ghamadee, you say he rejects Ahadiths. Where has he said that we should not consult Ahadith. Please Quote.

[/quote]

go and study first

[quote]

You are simply dreaming that he believes these stupid things but i think you are only imaginig.
[/quote]

go and study first

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Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

go and ask these question in an open mosque in any islamic country without any security
people will love to answer you
if you think that you are true
then you should not be shy or afraid
as true man never afraid

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Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

for the state of argument , i say i agree with you
now tell me didn't the beard was in practice at that time or not
if yes then why Ghamdi doesn't have that
isn't that clear cut rejection of Sunnah

i don't want to listen that sahaba and muslim didn't understand Hazoor PBUH but Ghamdi did etc etc etc
i don't want to listen thoes lame excuses again and again

answer in YES OR NO

[quote]

On the contrary Ahadith are collected by individuals and then transmitted to us. Their stature is paramount in understanding the life of prophet. But do you want us to consider something equivalent to Qur'an about which our top Muhaddith has worked and sometimes have disagreed as well. By this you mean, Imam Malik and Imam Bukhari were prophets? They can never make mistake!! Those people who met them were all angels? They could never tell lies about chain of narration. If this is your conclusion, then I think you are not even aware of history of Islam and evolution of Islamic law.

[/quote]

do i have said that they were prophets
do i
do i said they didn't mistake
go and study my previous post

pure a lame excuse to defend your imaginar god Ghamidi

[quote]

But the real fact is that you are denying sayings of prophet Muhammad yourself and you haven't given any satisfactory explanation for those Ahadith in which Prophet Muhammad says that he is fallible in worldly affairs. You only want to accept those Ahadith which goes along your own understanding of Islam.

[/quote]

you are also dening the hadees where Hazoor PBUH had said that he never utter other then Haq
bring any proof where you find Hazoor PBUH to be wrong
i never rejected the hadees
i had given the siaqo sabak of the ahadees
but you didn't want to understand because that go against your will

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Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

[quote=“usmanshahid”]

for the state of argument , i say i agree with you
now tell me didn’t the beard was in practice at that time or not
if yes then why Ghamdi doesn’t have that
isn’t that clear cut rejection of Sunnah

i don’t want to listen that sahaba and muslim didn’t understand Hazoor PBUH but Ghamdi did etc etc etc
i don’t want to listen thoes lame excuses again and again

answer in YES OR NO\QUOTE]
Usman! you need to stop your imagination here. Why you are accusing others for which others don’t say? For your information, beard was also kept by Abu Jahl, Abu Lahb and all the enemies of the prophet. Qur’an only talks about beard once, and that is of Faroah (Fir’oun). It is a purely cultural thing. Prophet Muhammad never made it explicitly part of the religion and all the Fiqh books before 3rd century doesn’t even consider it a Sunnah. I don’t know why you believe that traditionalists are correct:confused:

[quote=“usmanshahid”]

do i have said that they were prophets
do i
do i said they didn’t mistake
go and study my previous post

pure a lame excuse to defend your imaginar god Ghamidi \QUOTE]
You didn’t try to understand the Ahadith which I quoted before. I gave you examples from prophet’s life about pollination of date trees and Battle of Badr. In Ahadith, he said explicitly that he is fallible in worldy affairs and in the other stories, he proved in his act, Aml. What more proof do you need? Your explanation for these hadith is purely fictional and beyond the scope of the words of ahadith. Read the hadith again. Please!

I am also a human being. When I direct you about something which relates to your religion, take it from me and when I express my own opinion [about something which is outside this sphere] then my status in this regard is nothing more than that of a human being … I had conjectured about something.1 Do not hold me accountable for such things which are based on opinion and conjecture. However, if I say something on behalf of God, take it because I will never forge a lie on God … You very well know about your worldly affairs. (Muslim, Nos: 2263, 2361, 3262)

The prophet always says true about religion and in religion, he is definitely infallible authority. But in medicine, I will not follow what he was following 1400 years ago, rather I’d go to medical practicitioners of today. As prophet never declared himself authority in every faculty of life. Instead of asking others, you should see your interpretation of hadith while keeping the overall structure of religion.

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Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

i will say that stop imagniating that Ghamdi is true
open your eyes and look what he is saying , what he is doing to currupt islam

tell me doesn’t Quran say that we have made the Hazoor PBUH a model for us
say Yes or NO
don’t you think that Hazoor PBUH is practicle example of Quran
say yes or NO

tell me why Hazoor PBUH have choosen one cultural thing and not other
fahashi and uriayani was the culture of arab before Hazoor PBUH
why he havn’t choosen that as well

tell me did Hazoor PBUH have come to distroy all the wrong things to whom people say culture , then why he had adopted

tell me is that was culture for the kings to live in big MEHALS and have a luxurious life
then why he choosen to live a simple life
why he hadn’t adopted the culture

lame excuse after the lame excuse

do you have any proof
and also you are rejecting quran here as well , which says that Hazoor PBUH is model for you in ever aspect

here clearly Quran have said that go to AALIM ( i am forgetting the correct reference sorry )
what do you take as AALIM
AALIM means the well learned

see it is obvious from Quran and sunnah
that what problem you are facing , you have to go to AALim of that paticular thing
if you have medical problem
you will go to doctor
if you have problem in understanding of Quran o Hadees , you will go to ALLIM of Quran O Hadees
you have totally lame exucse here

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Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

Your last argument nullifies all of your previous arguments. :lifey: And this is exactly what I am trying to say for the last one week. This conclusion could have been reached more quickly, if you would have heed above quoted Ahadith and stories from the Prophet’s life earlier.

And I think in your talk, you must be refering to Uswah-e-Hasanah, which Qur’an has used for prophet Muhammad (sws). It means finest example, and not “complete example” (Uswah-e-Kamil) as it is normally understood. Prophet’s example in his worldly affairs is the finest example that how we should implement Qur’an and Sunnah in our life. And Prophet’s life has reached us, not only through by Qur’an but also through Sira literature and hadith literature. A website on internet says about Uswah-e-Hasanah and Sunnah:

The nature and the significance of the two - that is, the Sunnah and the Uswah-e-Hasanah of the Prophet (pbuh) - are poles apart. The former is an independent source of Islam, while the latter entails information about the Prophet’s example of living a life according to the directives entailed in the Qur’an and the Sunnah. In view of the significance of the former, the Prophet (pbuh) made special arrangements for the accurate and unhindered transmission over time, which has resulted in the complete consensus of the Muslim community regarding almost all the elements of Sunnah. No such arrangement was deemed necessary for the transmission of the Uswah-e-Hasanah.

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Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

bhai if you so that i should declare you winner
my bhai you are winner , ok , now happy

but the fact remains the same
Sunnah is sunnah
if you say that that my words contradicts then my brother
you are wrong
if one say some one says that tea is made by tea powder
other time he say that tea is made by miilk
and other time he say that tea is make by water

then that doesn’t mean that it conflict
its the flaw in your understanding because everything is required at their own place
Hazoor PBUH have said there is shafa in honey
Hazoor PBUH have said go to AAlim
it doesn’t meant that they are conflicting

its the problem with you understanding

but tired answering your lame excuses again and again
i am really fed up

bahi you win , i loose
if you are arguing only for this winning and loosing ( your behaviour is really childish )

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Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

then who is the complete example
do Ghamdi
shouldn't we follow Hazoor PBUH and follow Ghamdi

its your understanding of best and not complete
bring out the complete example to back your argument

for sake of argument we accept your argument
then ok it is not complete
then is it mean not to follow
he PBUH had beard , he PBUH is not complete example , so should not be followed
he PBUH spent a simple life , he PBUH is not a complete example , so should not be followed

is that what you are trying to say

Mufti Taqi Usmani: Key Islamic Principles for Reforming the Global Financial System
Mufti Taqi Usmani: Key Islamic Principles for Reforming the Global Financial System
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Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

I always look at Ghamidi as a teacher and nothing more.

Regarding Uswah-e-Hasanah, we know from hadith and Sira literature that how prophet used to treat his fellow men and how he use to organize his work, how he use to treat poor and needy etc. This is the “Uswah-e-Hasanah”. This is the perfect example or finest example for us to see that how Qur’anic teachings should be followed, as Aisha (ra) also said that prophet is the walking Qur’an. But regarding beard, this is not an issue raised by the religion. Prophet disliked the attire of those who have big musashes and small beards. This is the perfect advice, which could be given by the prophet to his followers. It includes the obedience of the directives of the Qur’an that one should not be arrogant even through his attire. And it also includes the application of Sunnah of trimming the Mustaches, which the prophet Muhammad instituted in his followers. I believe that this hadith is the perfect example for a good Muslim that how he should follow the directives of Qur’an and Sunnah.

But our later scholars consider these ahadith to be legalizing beard, which it doesn’t even say. The simple reason is that, in order to make something religion (i.e. part of Sunnah), it must follow the objectives of the religion set by the Qur’an. There is not even one established Sunnah, which would deliniate from this objective. And the objective is Tadhkiyya (purification). As Qur’an says: Successful indeed is the one who purifies his whole self.(al-shams 91:9)

Beard doesn’t result in any tadhkiya of body, diet, or nafs (inner-self), rather it is a purely cultural thing, which Prophet mentioned it while explaining the importance of having a good outlook. :slight_smile: But I also believe that beard is a good thing which all prophets had, but Prophet Muhammad (sws) never instituted it as part of religion.

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Re: Javed Ahmed Ghamdi

I am retiring for sometime now, as I am lagging behind one of my assignments. I just wish that we could discuss on the issues, on which Ghamidi really differs. Regarding Quranic interpretation, I’ve already pointed out in the above messages, but unfortunately, we couldn’t even talk about real issues. But in any case, catch you later guys. :insha: Allah Hafiz!