Were created at almost the same time.
They both had a large no. of refugees
They were both started as a wholely religeous state.
Both had hostile neighbours.
Both got military help from USA
Both sided with USA during the ‘cold war’.
Isreal is now a Military & Economical regional power, whereas Pakistan has lagged behind.
What do you think are the strategic issues, which have lead to this state of affairs.
Re: Isreal & Pakistan
separation of religion and state.
Re: Isreal & Pakistan
i dont have figures for pakistan but look at this
Re: Isreal & Pakistan
They have high literacy rate. Almost as good as other developed countries. Plus their population is not that high so i guess it is definately easier to progress faster. Whether u love jews or hate jews, u have to give them the credit. They all work for a common cause. They have unity. they are smart people. They have so much political clout.
Re: Isreal & Pakistan
^^
Work with the super power (like Bharat, China, Japan, South Korea) and you will be rich.
Have a large immigrant population in the super power country (like Bharat, China, Japan, South Korea), and you will be rich.
Or simply use your core competency to the fullest and you will be rich.
Chinese used their core competency of being a Mistri (factory worker) of the USA.
Bharatis used their core competency of being a Munshi (accountant, office seceratary) of USA.
They have leapfrogged in the last 20 years.
Pakistan ought to use its core competency of being a Sipahi (soldier) for the USA, and it can get a lot of money too.
Once you get money using your core competency un-abashedly, you can develop other competencies too like Japan and South Korea.
Re: Isreal & Pakistan
one thing which is very different in both countries, Israelis were always have been flithy rich. with few population and strong support from US and Jews across the world, it had never faced hunger or poority as compared to Pakistan. with a start like that they tend to have better fortune.
and I think Pakistan hasnt done that bad given all the circumstances, Pakistan had never been very friendly with US when compared to Israel. How many times it has used veto for Israel and for Pakistan in UN?? will give you a straight answer.
Israel even having full resources done well to actully use it in right direction. Pakistan lacks a consistant and sincere leaders, I havent heard of any in sincere leader from Israel.
a good leadership can make and break fortune of country.
Re: Isreal & Pakistan
There is no such thing as Israel but United States of Israel or in short USRael.. Cut the umbilical code and see how long it survives.
Re: Isreal & Pakistan
WoW!!!Suckers…With US aid of $14,630 per head they don’t need to work.. But the sad part is it is just a ticking time bomb money down the drain. There was a news report that Pali uprising virtually killed Israels economy.. Without massive US support it would have collapsed. They don’t have the land mass nor natural resources they can’t even export any high tech stuff without the blessing of US.
Re: Isreal & Pakistan
Dunno if Pali uprising has killed Israel. However it sure has killed Pali and Arab economy (if there ever was one).
Re: Isreal & Pakistan
Without massive Amreekan tax dollars USrael is as good as dead.
ENJOY..
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040927-090709-1175r.htm
The uprising cost Israel’s economy losses worth $10 million, according to the Israeli statistics.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1490906.stm
Israel’s economy has been hit hard by the deterioration in relations with the Palestinians.
http://www.hanitzotz.com/challenge/71/economy.html
Israel’s Economy in Trouble
Re: Isreal & Pakistan
......
Without massive Amreekan dollars many countries in the world would be dead. American market, innovation, research etc. dominates the world.
So puppoo ji, work with Amreekans and get dollars, and quit worrying about other people, just worry about your own pants and pant pockets.
Re: Isreal & Pakistan
^ You are evading Abdali's last post.
"work with Amreekans and get dollars, and quit worrying about other people,"
There is a difference between working with Americans and kissing American a$$. Supporting Zionist oppression of innocent people (even if they are oh-so-dreadful muslims) should not be the way of any honest person, irrespective of his religion, race and nationality.
Re: Isreal & Pakistan
** antiobl]Without massive Amreekan dollars many countries in the world would be dead. American market, innovation, research etc. dominates the world. **
Without massive amreekan terrorism millions of people would also be alive today..NO....... We are not talking about clingons but USRael, samjay laloo ram...
** So puppoo ji, work with Amreekans and get dollars, and quit worrying about other people, just worry about your own pants and pant pockets. **
So laloo ji Amreekan doooolars did lot of poo poo when Pali started their dunda and did even big poo poo in the far east, could not buy its way out...
** So lalooo ji stick to the topic at hand instead of beat around the bush as usual.... **
Re: Isreal & Pakistan
So Hammasis kill Faties, and you call it Zionist oppression? Oh Shahzada Ji, tribal people are too primitive to survive in this world.
It is not just Arab tribals (you call them Muslims), even Naga tribals, Nexal tribals, Pushtoon tribals, Baloch tribals are all in deep $hite.
You think Iran is treating Balochi tribals better than Pakistanis? Or NATO is treating Pushtoon Kandharis better than Pakistan treating Waziris.
You will remain quiet because Iranian "treatment" of Baluchi tribals won't be "zionist oppression", it will be Aryan oppression.
And No Amreekans are not propping up Iranian Moolahs so that they go and oppress Balochi tribals.
So you behave like a primitive tribal, you will be treated like one!
Re: Isreal & Pakistan
Isreal is now a Military & Economical regional power, whereas Pakistan has lagged behind.
What do you think are the strategic issues, which have lead to this state of affairs.
Israel originally was sponsord by the Soviets, not the Americans.
Needless to say, the European Jewery (being elites) had all the know-how required to form an effective state. Most where originally socialist (the Kibbutz is a commune), but also commited democrats which eventually saw Israel lean towards free-market economy.
Whereas the Arabs were more or less new states emerging from the darkness of colonialization, the Jews were in a relative position of power in terms of knowledge (of modern industry and modern warefare).
Why has Pakistan failed to develop? Well, we need look no further than India...
i) The military never usurped power in Israel (or in India). The military, although too often recognized as the saviour of Pakistan from corrupt politicians, is primarily responsible for disallowing a normal polity to emerge. And no, it's not the fault of the "fundo"'s, who were relativley late arrivals (during the time of Zia) as one center of power in Pakistan. Sorry, but all fingers point towards the secularists...and, of course, let's not forget:
ii) The feudals. A bane on Pakistan's existence. India had the sense to eliminate them. Pakistan was founded, and continues to be run by them. Feudalism basis itself on the existence of an agrarian serfdome, hardly the environment for a nation to modernize. History shows (in South Korea, in China, even in Japan) that unless a society moves from an agrarian to industrial society, it will not develop. The feudals have failed to become industrialists, and so Pakistan suffers.
iii) Pakistan has a weak federal government. Israel does not have either the ethnic mix, nor the inter-ethnic turbulance pakistan has. India was not affraid to muscle it's way into some form of unity. Thanks to it's shift to an Urban society, the inter-ethnic tensions will most likely diffuse over time. Pakistan has no such luck.
Pakistan has been mismanaged from day one. Militarily, the generals have been nothing short of incompotent, and the political rulers insist on behaving as royalty rather than civil servants.
And to repeat, lack of "secularism" has absoloutely nothing to do with it...that's primarily a Western bugaboo.
Re: Isreal & Pakistan
Why has Pakistan failed to develop? Well, we need look no further than India...
i) The military never usurped power in Israel (or in India). ......
Oh Hazrat, Pakistan is no Bharat. If we had to use the same formulae as Bharatis, we would have stayed under Dilli rule. So let us keep Bharat out for a bit.
Israelis were blessed with most of the strong Ex-generals (as opposed to bumbling idiots like Asghar Khan, Aslam Beg, or Hameed Gul) who eventually got elected as their civilian leaders. These Ex-Generals turned politicians were greatly admired by ordinary population.
As these retired generals were able to carry strong pro-Israel and pro-US policies, there was no need for active generals to take over.
In case of Pakistan, we elected BB, Zulfi, and NS. Every one of them is either a Commie or a bumbling idiot. Once they fail to carry out pro-Pakistan and pro-US agenda, our active duty generals have to step in.
Re: Isreal & Pakistan
Needless to say, the European Jewery (being elites) had all the know-how required to form an effective state. Most where originally socialist (the Kibbutz is a commune), but also commited democrats which eventually saw Israel lean towards free-market economy.
Whereas the Arabs were more or less new states emerging from the darkness of colonialization, the Jews were in a relative position of power in terms of knowledge (of modern industry and modern warefare).
Why has Pakistan failed to develop? Well, we need look no further than India...
i) The military never usurped power in Israel (or in India). The military, although too often recognized as the saviour of Pakistan from corrupt politicians, is primarily responsible for disallowing a normal polity to emerge. And no, it's not the fault of the "fundo"'s, who were relativley late arrivals (during the time of Zia) as one center of power in Pakistan. Sorry, but all fingers point towards the secularists...and, of course, let's not forget: ii) The feudals. A bane on Pakistan's existence. India had the sense to eliminate them. Pakistan was founded, and continues to be run by them. Feudalism basis itself on the existence of an agrarian serfdome, hardly the environment for a nation to modernize. History shows (in South Korea, in China, even in Japan) that unless a society moves from an agrarian to industrial society, it will not develop. The feudals have failed to become industrialists, and so Pakistan suffers. iii) Pakistan has a weak federal government. Israel does not have either the ethnic mix, nor the inter-ethnic turbulance pakistan has. India was not affraid to muscle it's way into some form of unity. Thanks to it's shift to an Urban society, the inter-ethnic tensions will most likely diffuse over time. Pakistan has no such luck.
Pakistan has been mismanaged from day one. Militarily, the generals have been nothing short of incompotent, and the political rulers insist on behaving as royalty rather than civil servants.
And to repeat, lack of "secularism" has absoloutely nothing to do with it...that's primarily a Western bugaboo.
Nice post, i agree with you, except for the highlighted part. Israel has more ethnic mix than Pakistan, there are Arab jews, European jews, russian jews, African jews, american jews and even Indian jews in Israel. Even there is a social/economic differences, american jews being more powerful and wealthy compared to others.
Re: Isreal & Pakistan
The Jews, no matter where they live, have remarkable unity and a deep and most have deep attachment to Judaism and Israel. Pakistanis or in general most Muslims have none of that. We shd look back at our history and see what tthings made us successful. A little off topic, but I had to take it out!
Re: Isreal & Pakistan
In case of Pakistan, we elected BB, Zulfi, and NS. Every one of them is either a Commie or a bumbling idiot. Once they fail to carry out pro-Pakistan and pro-US agenda, our active duty generals have to step in.
I disagree. The generals never really tried to honestly gain power. The people elect those who run...go figure, that's democracy for you.
One of the major failures of both pakistani politicians and generals was in realizing that America was, in terms of what one could get from a relationship, not the better ally to have. Well, at least during the cold war.
A pro-US agenda has time and time worked against Pakistan's national interest.
Fighting a war in Waziaristan is the last thing Paksitan needs to do, as there are more effective political ways to subvert the tribals, or impose federal rule. The generals, though, were more concerned about 'strategic depth' and that sort of nonsense for the sake of Kashmir. But at least the fallout from that nonsense was outside of Pakistan's borders.
Now, America won't even support the federal government against the Balacui rebels, and certainly isn't doing anything to help the situation. Some friend...
Re: Isreal & Pakistan
True, but the mix isn't as pronounced. The European jewry pretty much run Israel, and all those who immigrate to Israel (whether Russian or Ethipoian) tend to integrate into the society setup by the Europeans.
The point was, on the Pakistani side, even at the federal level the politics are dominated by provincial identities. There are a significat number of Pashtuns and Sihndi's, say, who feel alienated from Punjab-dominated Pakistan to dismiss any similarity to Israel's ethnic mix (where with the exception of Russian jews there really are two dominate groups: middle eastern and european jews).