Israel's Gaza mission kills 20

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
41

You would think that by now there would simply be fatigue on both sides. No one is enjoying this, but both sides are locked in a death grip. The US is in position to slap Israel in the ears if they enter into an agreement, but who will bully the Palestinians?

Let's face it, Saudi, Iran, Syria etc. just love living this fight vicariously. When there is peace, the Arab would will then look at the tyranical regimes in the region and focus their energy on their own back yard. So long as the Palestinians are fighting it will provide a distraction for the Arab masses, and Israel can remain the bogey man.

The UN should do something while they still have a thread of credibility....

42

OG

KSA did come up with a plan that they proposed except it did not get much support. I thought it was a bold move by Price Abdullah.

I think if everyone involved honestly wants there to be a resolution then there would be one, right now everyone is looking for own interests and ignoring the right thing to do.

43

This song applies perfectly to the Palestinian cause, although was written for the native americans who lost their lands upon occupation.

Come out come out
No use in hiding
Come now come now
Can you not see?
There's no place here
What were you expecting
Not room for both
Just room for me
So you will lay your arms down
Yes I will call this home
Away away
You have been banished
Your land is gone
And given me
And here I will spread my wings
Yes I will call this home
What's this you say
You feel a right to remain
Then stay and I will bury you
What's that you say
Your father's spirit still lives in this place
I will silence you
Here's the hitch
Your horse is leaving
Don't miss your boat
It's leaving now
And as you go I will spread my wings
Yes I will call this home
I have no time to justify to you
Fool you're blind, move aside for me
All I can say to you my new neighbor
Is you must move on or I will bury you
Now as I rest my feet by this fire
Those hands once warmed here
I have retired them
I can breathe my own air
I can sleep more soundly
Upon these poor souls
I'll build heaven and call it home
'Cause you're all dead now
I live with my justice
I live with my greedy need
I live with no mercy
I live with my frenzied feeding
I live with my hatred
I live with my jealousy
I live with the notion
That I don't need anyone but me
Don't drink the water
Don't drink the water
There's blood in the water
Don't drink the water

DAVE MATTHEWS BAND - Don't Drink the Water

44

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
It's not whining, it's reality. Until it's official and unofficial policy of the Palestinians to acknowledge Israel and realize that they will not be pushed into the sea, the danger will continue for Palestinians.
[/QUOTE]

So the killings will continue until Palistinians 'officially' acknowledge Israel's existence? Jeez, they are a stubborn lot. can they not look at it this realistically? That israel wont be washed away, and that palistinians are the ones in danger of losing thier land?

IMO, Israel has always had the upper hand. If they wanted peace, or two nation living side by side, it would've come long ago. The future of palestine is in thier hands. Neither the UN or the arab countries can do much, because anything Israel wants, Israel pretty much gets.

45

See fraudz, in the real world negotiations work when there is consensus and some semblance of Parity. Or the roles are defined clearly. There are no roles defined on the palestinian side, who do yu negotiate with, Hamas, PA, Islamic Jihad? and ot complimate matters the Israelis are in the position of strength and can impose a brutal accord unilaterally with the idiotic wall building and razing of houses etc.. this is the basic problem.

IF Veryfat is the guy for the Palestinians, then hamas and all other should just go into a hole and blow themselves up. If Hamas is the entity, then it has to agree to the existence of Great Israel.

FOr the Israelis,they need to stop playing the two forked tongue twisting game of saying they are for peace and then go on building the settlements, which obviously are the military bases without the messhall.

THe UN cannot do anything and should shut the fk up. It is an anachronistic machinery that hasn't the motivation, inclination or resources to enforce it's will.

I am afraid for the palestinians, because if one of these terrorist guys from Hamas or Islamic JIhad does someting stupid at a 9/11 scale, the response form ISrael will make shock and awe look like a sparkler. There is tremendous imbalance of power in that region, and it seems to me that it is not going to change for the near term.

So what do we do....there needs ot be a final solution (pun intended) with negotiations going along the following lines.

A)Deal Breakers: that can be identified at the outset. You cannot come at the 23rd hr and demand that jerusalem is yours. for ex....

this basically outlines the terms of the agreement.

B) Prioritized set of issues for either side. For ex..if return of refugees is number 1 on the list for Palestinians and numer 42 for the Israelis then ISrael should give in. catch my drift...

In this scenario you usuallly get stuck around the mean for a couple of days until cash can take care of it.

Once agreed on the issues, then invite me to give a sermon on the mount so I cna declare all of them haraam and condemn them to the sea and you ans I can open up a Casino. We'll hire outlaw as a bouncer at the strip club.

46

^ Thats the common sense way of solving a problem (except for the strip club part - casino is ok). Now lets get back to Israel-Palestinian issue....

47

"So the killings will continue until Palistinians 'officially' acknowledge Israel's existence?"

The point Matsui is making, and I am making is that you have to be able to negociate with someONE, and that the someONE has to be able to enforce the agreement. Why should Israel negociate with Arafat, essentially only representing Fatah, when any peace plan will not be honored by Hamas, and Islamic Jihad? Will Iran stop funding Hizbullah if there is a peace agreement? doubtful.

The US could slap sanctions on Israel, withhold aid, and essentially crash their economy. We have them by the short hairs. But so long as the Palestinians embrace terror, the Israeli's will always have a ready excuse. Remove the excuse and Israels behavior MUST change. The occasional suicide bomb is the best Media event Israel can have in it's war af attrition. Once the security fence is complete, Israel can just shut the border and go on it's way. It is better than the great wall of China. And Viola! Israel has implemented it's own unilateral plan. Obviously they are conceding that the settlements cannot be protected by walls, so a major concession has already been made. Time is ticking, and everyday the wall grows....

48

Civilians are being killed and America refuse to condemn it and says they got the right to defend themselves.

I literally wanted to slap Bush real hard on the face when I listening to his speech.

With such double standards where does America think it’s going.

49

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by myvoice: *
**Killing innocent Jews on buses, in diners and in pizza parlors. Did you forget about that? *
[/quote]

i saw pictures of the wounded/dead on tv. Some of them were kids. Did they blow up pizza parlours ? The civilians targeted in the Rafah refugee camp - did they blow up diners?

[quote]
*That is exactly what is required to achieve peace. People ON BOTH SIDES respecting innocent life. What do you find objectionable in that statement?
[/QUOTE]
*
i find that when one side is dropping missiles from helicopters, and the other side is pelting tanks with pebbles, then yeah i find that a tad bit lopsided.

i saw the pics and they were dreadful. Children were injured and bleeding from their heads. You know what, that's not called achieving peace. You've just sown the seeds of a few more burned out pizza parlours.

50

As the diehard supporters of Israel fail to condemn these war crimes, and make only excuses, maybe they can tell us if these Palestinian kids are "terrorists"?

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51

Is this Paletinian baby a "terrorist" as well?

[thumb=H]terrorism12327_4485412.JPG[/thumb]

52

:(

53

You don;t negotiate for freedom or anything with a victim attitude, what you will end up getting is a deeply discounted product because your selfworth has been assigned a lesser rate. Game theory kids…game theory!! :rolleyes:

Kids throwing Rocks vs. Tanks. Can we make sure that you advise their parents that kids shouldn’t be throwing rocks at men with guns. Seems like common sense.

One can take the argument to another level, atleast the kids are engaging in violent activities, how many pizza parlor patrons were their lobbing stones at the Suicide bombers?

54

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *

One can take the argument to another level, atleast the kids are engaging in violent activities, how many pizza parlor patrons were their lobbing stones at the Suicide bombers?
[/QUOTE]

How many mothers and childrens were butchered by tanks when they were going about their daily chores?

How many families houses have been bulldozed when they were sitting in their homes?

You destroy their homes and butcher their women and children, they will come after you wherever they can. So stop making this lame pizza parlour excuses. The Israelis want peace, let them behave like humans, not blood thirsty beasts.

55

The blood thirsty beast label applies to both sides. SOmehow you guys are always absolving palestinians of any blame to the circle of violence.

Did you read my post up above where I condemned the ISraelis for razing houses and fomenting violence. This is not a one sided affair and stop pretending that it is.

THe more the Palestinians get into an armed conflict the lesser their chance of having anything concrete. MOral arguments cannot be had when both sides are killing each each other and there is such a huge disparity in capabilities. Stones vs. tanks is not a moral argument.

The arabs tried the whole armed conflict appraoch, what did it get them? They are simply not efficient at it, particuarly against Israel. IF tomorrow Afghanistan starts sending suicide bombers into Karachi because they are unsatisfied with the durand line..would Pakistan send them flowers? I think you know the answer to that. SO please stop the pretense of some ill founded valor. Stupid parents send their kids to be martyred. Smart parents try to stop the violence. Goes for both ISraelis and palestinians.

56

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
The blood thirsty beast label applies to both sides. SOmehow you guys are always absolving palestinians of any blame to the circle of violence.

Did you read my post up above where I condemned the ISraelis for razing houses and fomenting violence. This is not a one sided affair and stop pretending that it is.

THe more the Palestinians get into an armed conflict the lesser their chance of having anything concrete. MOral arguments cannot be had when both sides are killing each each other and there is such a huge disparity in capabilities. Stones vs. tanks is not a moral argument.

The arabs tried the whole armed conflict appraoch, what did it get them? They are simply not efficient at it, particuarly against Israel. IF tomorrow Afghanistan starts sending suicide bombers into Karachi because they are unsatisfied with the durand line..would Pakistan send them flowers? I think you know the answer to that. SO please stop the pretense of some ill founded valor. Stupid parents send their kids to be martyred. Smart parents try to stop the violence. Goes for both ISraelis and palestinians.
[/QUOTE]

Maybe it applies to both sides but then stop absolving Israelis of any blame as well. All I have seen from you is that the Palestinians are to be blamed. It is not the stuipid parents who are sending their kids to be killed. In case you havent read the news it was the Israelis who went into their towns and homes and started killing them. Look at the whole scenario from a neutral point of view before giving lectures to others. Israel's arrogance and definace of the world opinion is due to the unflinching American support. The whole world is condemning Israel, so they cant all be wrong. Everytime the Israeli tanks roll into Arab lands and kill hundreds of innocent people all we get from teh mighty Americans is that Israel has got a right to defned itself and that the Palestinian leadership should show restraint. whom are they kidding. They maybe able to pull the wool over a few peoples eyes but majority of the world knows what is going on.

57

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *

The arabs tried the whole armed conflict appraoch, what did it get them? They are simply not efficient at it, particuarly against Israel. IF tomorrow Afghanistan starts sending suicide bombers into Karachi because they are unsatisfied with the durand line..would Pakistan send them flowers? I think you know the answer to that. SO please stop the pretense of some ill founded valor. Stupid parents send their kids to be martyred. Smart parents try to stop the violence. Goes for both ISraelis and palestinians.
[/QUOTE]

No one is talking about the land on which Israel was created, so stop making silly comparisons. What we are talking about here is the lands which were captured after the 1967 war and where Israel has built settlements illegally.

58

Few points:

Your view is not neutral. So get off the soap boxyourself.

All you guys do is complain. DO something about it... if you feel so strongly that violence is not the answer, then why not eliminate the likes of Hamas and IJ and Al Aska etc? When the Palestinians themselves don;t have leadership and can't contain the fringe elements or give the enough political power to represent them in their cause, the result will always be negative for palestinians.

An armed cnflict with Israel will always result in disproportionate amount of casualties for the Arabs. This is the reality...when dealing with a weakend hand, sending in suicide bobers deprives this weaker side of any moral standing, because they do not target the IDF soldiers alone. Then their bretheren go and hide in refugee camps and in highly populated areas, in schools and mosques. Where the chutiya israelis have no recourse but to go and kill 20 innocents along side with 5 terrorists. The circle jerk continues... maybe gandhi had it right...

Sorry..terrorism is torrorism..whether it happens in India, Israel, Philippines, NYC or Madrid. I will not make any concessions for motives of idiots who think they are doing God's bidding. The martyr culture is to be blamed and the blame lies with the parents who teach their kids such idiotic notions. Be they jews or muslims or hindus.

59

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ehsan: *

So stop making this lame pizza parlour excuses. The Israelis want peace, let them behave like humans, not blood thirsty beasts.
[/QUOTE]

Pizza parlour i have heard that one about 100 times from the right wing brigade is that the only outrage they can quote that incident happend 3 years ago in 2001.

Palestinians being killed everyday slips there minds quite easily for some reason

60

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
Few points:

All you guys do is complain.

[/QUOTE]

We are not complaining. Just like you are always complaining about the Palestinians, we also say that the Palestinians have a right to exist and have a right to defend themselves.

Israel never was/is sincere in its intentions towards a Palestinian state. The ball is in their court, let them start with implementing the numerous UN resolutions which to date they have treated with contempt. Secondly, realise that there is a world out there apart from America and start engaging with them. Most of all stop state terrorism and start behaivng like normal human beings.