Who is making these children to learn shooting???
http://www.gupistan.com/gallery/1/boy.jpg
Israeli human rights abuses are ignored by U.S.
[This message has been edited by Banda-e-Nake (edited March 05, 2002).]
look at the bold woman......she damn care of death.
Best Place to kill your time is WWWeb.
I found Isreali soldier to be more coward!
You beat me I'll score equally
Okay....now somebody prove to me with nothing more than this photograph that the soldier is actually aiming at the kids........
Muzna..
Its a common military rule (unless we admit that the israelis are not a military force, but rather terrorists) that when there are civilians within range, or when a weapon is loaded but not being fired, always aim it down down down.
I know this mistake is replicated by armies around the world, but in this case, its not just a mistake. Its without a doubt, an intentional show of force, against an unarmed woman with 2 kids. And well, the fact that the kids are obviously scared, and trying to hide behind their mother, speaks of their fear of the weapon, and the man behind the weapon, knowing what kind of a criminal mind he holds in his head. And yes, it also kinda proves that the weapon is being pointed towards them, which explains why the kids are trying to take cover.
That's so sick, i really hope they sort out this problem sometime soon..
Akif,
We are talking about the middle east....let's leave common military practices out of it.
I agree that it is inspirational to believe that the Muslim woman is undaunted and determined but frankly, I don't believe that she, or her children are the target in this guy's sight. I believe that he appears to be aiming beyond them. Perhaps not far beyond them....but beyond nonetheless. (Look at the weapon for pete's sake....it's an automatic gun with what range? And is the soldier stupid enough to blow the kids to bits, risking getting guts all over himself? Maybe I don't know enough about weapons but it appears that he would be targetting further than a meter away.)
Secondly, children in such close proximity to such a weapon (what must appear as a large gun to them) being aimed would be fearful, whether or not they are the intended target. This much goes without saying......
Finally, suggesting that the children know "what kind of criminal mind he holds in his head" is really, really stretching it. Granted I'll give you some editorial liberty, but c'mon, isn't that a bit too much? How in the world can the kids know what's in this guy's mind? And how can you know what's in theirs'?
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How in the world can the kids know what's in this guy's mind?
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if u're from Laloo Khait.. you know a TT spells trouble even if u were a 7 year old.
There is No Spoon
Muzna..
Its either about judgement, or geometry. We can either take out a measuring tape and scale the distance between the gun and the kids, or we can judge the scene based on historical perspectives. Once we have our train of thought in hand, it would be easier to talk about it.
Now since you clearly differentiated between ‘common military practices’ and ‘middle east’, should I assume that you dont see the two in the same light? And that you dont believe that whatever is happening in the mideast falls under normal military practices? If so, doesnt that automatically mean that you too know deep down as to what kind of feelings and mentality the two sides harbor towards each other. And you would also then know that killing of Palestinians is an official israeli diktat.
Muzna you assumed that he appears to be aiming the gun away from the mother and her kids. I assume that he is aiming it at them. Now I have lots of precedence to support my assumption. Israeli soldiers have killed more children in the past year than we would like to believe. And we would be foolish to believe that all of them were accidents. And calling them collateral damage would be plain criminal.
Now can you site any precedence to support your assumption that he seems to be aiming it away? In the official words of the israeli government, they are going to kill palestinians till they ‘beg for mercy’. I dont see any restraint here at all, so its pretty much no holds barred for them. So where can we possibly find a precedence to even assume that he is aiming it away?
But then again Muzna, its not just about one photograph. Of course this soldier knows hes surrounded by photographers, and he has clear orders not to repeat the mistake of the soldiers who killed Muhammad Durrah in the arms of his father, right in front of a video camera. This is not about one or two instances. This is about a general policy of killing, which is random, to say the least. In the light of that, I cannot give this soldier the benefit of doubt, ever.
And is the soldier stupid enough to blow the kids to bits, risking getting guts all over himself?
Muzna…there was this photo on Yahoo a few days ago, of Israeli soldiers posing for photographs with the body of a Palestinian fighter, which had been blasted apart by a tank shell. You think these soldiers have an iota of decency or compassion left in them for them to be bothered with whether they get any blood splattered on them? If anything, they would show off that blood as a medal!
Maybe I don’t know enough about weapons but it appears that he would be targetting further than a meter away.
Again, what makes you think they ever ‘target’ anyone? If they were indeed carefully targetting ‘terrorists’, why would then most of the past years 1000+ Palestinian casualties be those of innocent kids and women?
Secondly, children in such close proximity to such a weapon (what must appear as a large gun to them) being aimed would be fearful, whether or not they are the intended target. This much goes without saying…
Not really. Children respond to their surroundings in how they react. A child from the US or Canada would be frightened at the sight of a gun. A child from the Palestine would not. He/she is routinely subjected to these gruesome sights. So for them to be frightened is something which would be way beyond our comprehension, to tell you the truth.
Finally, suggesting that the children know “what kind of criminal mind he holds in his head” is really, really stretching it. Granted I’ll give you some editorial liberty, but c’mon, isn’t that a bit too much? How in the world can the kids know what’s in this guy’s mind? And how can you know what’s in theirs’?
Actions depict a persons thought process. Like I said before, these kids witness these uniformed criminals day in day out. Those soldiers who had a conscience, opted to sign out of the Israeli military service. So you cant even say that the soldiers like the one in this picture, are just doing their job. They are doing it because they think its right to occupy someone elses home, and kill them at will. And when the same is done to them, it becomes terrorism.
We cannot judge these kids based on what we know of kids around us. These kids definitely have a different thought process. They are forced to grow up very early. They start fighting for freedom at an age when our kids are still playing video games. Muzna, 2 entire generations have been through this in Palestine. They are a whole different breed. These arent our everyday kids, as sad as that sounds.
Finally…perhaps you are right. He might be aiming it away, since they are so close. But chances are (and you know it) that he wont hesitate to shoot at them when they go far, and when there are no cameras and reporters around. Perhaps not this woman and not her kids, but some other woman and her kids. So does it really matter on how we view this picture? This photograph, to me, is more a symbol of Israeli oppression than a debate on the angle of the muzzle.
Apologies for the long post
Muzna's right! The guy's probably not pointing at the kids, not that makes whoever he's aiming at any better.
If you look carefully, he seems to lift up and turn his head a bit to look at the woman who's approaching him.
I agree with Muzna entirely.
He is not pointing the rifle at her. Look at where he is looking (at the woman) and where the weapon is pointing (it's pointing in a totally different direction). So there is no way he is pointing the weapon at her.
What's all this nonsense about keeping your weapon down when there are women and children about? In the US and UK, soldiers are not taught that, so how can you say it's a "common military rule"? This guy is in an urban environment. Areas like this have been successfully used by Palestinian snipers in the past. If you were in his shoes, would you put your guard down?
If this really an "intentional show of force", why is the guy crouching? I doubt that he's interested in harassing her, he's just keeping his guard up in a defensive posture. Just like troops from any country will do when in a potentially hostile urban landscape.
http://www.gupistan.com/gallery/1/106.jpg
This might clear the issue
Okay , I agree with Muzna that the soldier is not aiming on kids and the women.
But would you deny that, Israeli are not involved in human right violations, and killing of innocnent palestenians?
futhermore if i dont have weapons of mass destructions to retaliate the the israeli mass destruction force, I would really go for Auicide bombers, reason I have to die, what so ever, family is already dead, why not kill some people before dieing..
Dont think "you can" know "you can"
.::. ¢¼ ﷲ ﻼﺃ ﷲﺃ ﻶ ¢¼ .::.
The picture was actually taken when the IDF soldire was aiming at a target left of the childern, and he used his gun to point out to the family to hurry up.
you can see that on Jazeera, they show that every now and then
Should I also post a picture of Israeli civillians killed by Palestinian sucide bombers?
BADSHAH Please do that....We all want to know what 34 years of occupation dose to people.
Akif,
I don't mean to disrespect the long post that you have taken the time to submit. Nor do I deny the validity of the individual points that you have made with respect to what is going on in the middle east. But I must stress.....you need to re-read my original post in this topic.
I asked someone to prove, with nothing more than the photograph, that the target of the aggression are the children and the woman. You cannot do that.
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Originally posted by Muzna:
**Okay....now somebody prove to me with nothing more than this photograph that the soldier is actually aiming at the kids........
**
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I am in no way condoning what is going on between Palestine and isreal. I am, however, advocating that we stop using such photos to provoke anger and hatred.
Neither of these two emotions have been successful at resolving conflict in that region for years. How can we believe that this kind of "propoganda" will help us now?
By your own admission the children of the middle east are not like the children we see around us in the west. They are de-sensitized, I agree. But why? Because from birth they are taught to fear, to fight and to hate. Perhaps not directly but through unavoidable experiences they learn these things.
A different, non-violent, non-hate-mongering approach needs to be found!
Thanks to those that agreed with me. I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one that could see things from this angle.
[This message has been edited by Muzna (edited March 06, 2002).]
Sorry to butt in, but just a question to Muzna.
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I asked someone to prove, with nothing more than the photograph, that the target of the aggression are the children and the woman. You cannot do that.
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Now my question is:
Can you prove the opposite?
“na maiN* momin vich masiitaa*N, na maiN* muusaa, na fir'aun!”
*
Ali,
By the number of people that have agreed with me, I obviously have done a better job of proving my point.
[quote]
Originally posted by Muzna:
*Okay....now somebody prove to me with nothing more than this photograph that the soldier is actually aiming at the kids........
*
[/quote]
This is not 'the soldier' with a gun, and those arent 'the kids'. This is an israeli soldier who is taking part in the forcible occupation of Palestine, and these are kids who are being forcibly occupied by this soldier, and many others like him.
By turning it into a generic question, you are trying to divert the attention of the viewers. The reason why this photo was put up was not for generic reasons. Undoubtedly such scenarios occur in other parts of the world too. But you must realize the reason as to why this picture was posted here. Because this is a daily occurance in Palestine, and well, heck, the presence of the soldier himself is a war crime in progress, so we dont even need to go to judging the angle of the muzzle.
The picture is not generic. Its directly related to the Palestinian occupation. Hence, its wrong of you to turn it into a casual piece. Its not the picture that matters here, really, because frankly, we have witnessed much worse scenarios in Palestine. Its the concept behind it, and yes, that concept invariably makes this soldiers presence despicable, regardless of where hes pointing his gun.