Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
The 'right to exist' has never been a synonym for 'oppression'. Unfortunately, Israel seems to think it does.
Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
The 'why's whats who's where', theres nowt that justifies oppression.
Your'e right, Ma. Perhaps the Israelis should instead give them raindrops on roses, whiskers on kittens, bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens and then they'd stop killing them and instead stand in a circle and sing koombuya. Bottom line is you are blaming the wrong people for the "oppression". It's like a murderer complaining about the food on the jailhouse menu.
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And yes i do believe Isreal gets the 'jollies' from it.... more land grabbing opportunities for jews...heck why wouldnt it give them thrills?
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They have had plenty of land grabbing opporutnites, every time their neighbors attacked and Israel defeated them. Maybe Jews aren't the land grabbing monsters you make them to be? Otherwise they would be occupying a huge swath of the ME right now and not just the terrortories from where the attacks are coming from.
Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
Your'e right, Ma. Perhaps the Israelis should instead give them raindrops on roses, whiskers on kittens, bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens and then they'd stop killing them and instead stand in a circle and sing koombuya. Bottom line is you are blaming the wrong people for the "oppression". It's like a murderer complaining about the food on the jailhouse menu.
you mean, im in the wrong to fault the oppressers and infact should be blaming the oppressed? is that the logic your following here?
these justifications are getting worser by the minute.
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They have had plenty of land grabbing opporutnites, every time their neighbors attacked and Israel defeated them. Maybe Jews aren't the land grabbing monsters you make them to be? Otherwise they would be occupying a huge swath of the ME right now and not just the terrortories from where the attacks are coming from.
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you forget they still amass a huge swath that they've yet to give back, but thats beside the point, my focus is palestine. you cant keep bringing in the past inorder to cover up its behaviour in palestine. whats wrong is wrong... is wrong deegeh.
Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
you mean, im in the wrong to fault the oppressers and infact should be blaming the oppressed? is that the logic your following here?
That is exactly what I'm saying. It sounds so nice and victimy to refer to them as 'the oppressed'. Much more sympathetic than "those living in rancid conditions because their corrupt leadership and racist allies have continuously followed violent and self destructive policies instead of living in peace with their neighbors"
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you forget they still amass a huge swath that they've yet to give back, but thats beside the point, my focus is palestine. you cant keep bringing in the past inorder to cover up its behaviour in palestine. whats wrong is wrong... is wrong.
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Huge?? Israel has given up 90 percent of the territories taken during the 6 Day War. They now occupy 2000 square miles in the West Bank and 400 square miles of the Golan Heights. And only because those areas have refused a peace deal and Israel has to protect themselves from more attacks.
So I can't bring up the fact they have been attacked continuously for 60 years? Ok then I don't want to hear again how those terrortories used to be administered. They are now administered and occupied by the Jews. Palestinians can't justify their terrorist behavior becauase of who that land used to belong to. What's wrong is wrong and it is wrong to want to wipe Israel off the map and kill its citizens.
Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
Huge?? Israel has given up 90 percent of the territories taken during the 6 Day War. They now occupy 2000 square miles in the West Bank and 400 square miles of the Golan Heights. And only because those areas have refused a peace deal and Israel has to protect themselves from more attacks.
Semi Israel can only occupy and control as much as they can defend. The territories you have outlined are a significant percentage of the already small geography of that area. And those areas have little to do with a peace deal its about controlling resources in those areas. Israel controls those areas and will not surrender them back because its water resources are located in thos areas. The area in Golan heights is where the water orignates and the area in west bank is where the Jordon remains fresh water before it fuses into the salty dea sea of which there are negligible uses.
Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
If the Jew Blitzer doesn't, then why should his brainwashed child do it?
Pardon?
Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
Israel has the right to exist, the Arabs rejected that right and lost several wars and land was grabbed from where attacks took place, land has also been returned for the promise of peace.
Israel uses smart bombs to target militants who act against Israels right to exist, the purpose of the bombs are to kill such people and hurt their campaign to destroy Israel, these bombs are not used to target innocents and the destructive power of these weapons and the number of deaths while high is no where even close to what it would be if Israel used such weapons to target innocents. Hamas on the other hand targets Israel citizens, that is there goal, Hamas goal is not to kill militants of IDF soldiers they use violence to kill civilians yet you give them a pass because they don't have the "real weapons" like Israel does. If Hamas had "real weapons" by their own statements they would "push Israel into the sea". It is Israels legal responsibility to it's citizens that no organization be allowed to do this, through peace if possible or through force when necessary.
I find any death of any non-militant regrettable on either side, can you say that and mean it?
Why do they have a right to exist? What honors have they earned that entitle them to this apparent right? This whole right to exist crap is just cliche Politicaly correct BS.
lol... Israel kills Palestinians regularly, only it uses the cover of being a so called responsible state... Israel is a nation that created to torture torment these people from the day they are born to the day they die. Why should I have sympathy for a nation that treats people like cattle?
Give the Palestinians the capacity to defend themselves... Lets openly condemn Israel for its crimes. Then once the playing field is leveled, we can start talking about hamas being aterrosit group.
Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
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That is exactly what I'm saying. It sounds so nice and victimy to refer to them as 'the oppressed'. Much more sympathetic than "those living in rancid conditions because their corrupt leadership and racist allies have continuously followed violent and self destructive policies instead of living in peace with their neighbors"
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aye lets blame the victim instead right? b'jesus thats twisted.
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So I can't bring up the fact they have been attacked continuously for 60 years?
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aye you can, but where its bloomin relevent. who attacked who for 60 years, does not justify israels behaviour towards palestine now, neither is it relevent..
Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
That is exactly what I'm saying. It sounds so nice and victimy to refer to them as 'the oppressed'. Much more sympathetic than "those living in rancid conditions because their corrupt leadership and racist allies have continuously followed violent and self destructive policies instead of living in peace with their neighbors"
Huge?? Israel has given up 90 percent of the territories taken during the 6 Day War. They now occupy 2000 square miles in the West Bank and 400 square miles of the Golan Heights. And only because those areas have refused a peace deal and Israel has to protect themselves from more attacks.
So I can't bring up the fact they have been attacked continuously for 60 years? Ok then I don't want to hear again how those terrortories used to be administered. They are now administered and occupied by the Jews. Palestinians can't justify their terrorist behavior becauase of who that land used to belong to. What's wrong is wrong and it is wrong to want to wipe Israel off the map and kill its citizens.
Sure, lets push Israel back into its original borders and destroy all the settlements and send all the settlers back to Israel... Then they have the right exist, right to dance, the right pass gas or any other right they want. But until then, we dont owe them anything, and we particularly dont need to recognize their so called "right to exist."
Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
The problem is you guys simply don't recognize Israels right to exist and no right to exist means no right to defend oneself hence everything Israel does is unjustified and those that oppose it may do so in any way, shape, or violent form.
This is exactly the view most Americans have of Palestinians. The peace process was a joke, and the understanding was that the Palestinians wouldn't be given a viable state, but a region under Israeli control. If indeed this is not the understanding, then people are ignorant of what the end result was of the last round of negotiations on what was proposed to the Palestinians.
Israel's right to exist is tied to Palestine's. That is the point of view many contemporary Muslims have, and most Westerners reject. The very fact that the Israeli state is recognized, while there is a question regarding the status of a Palestinian state speaks to this duplicity. So suggestions that the official Western stance on the situation is some how even handed of "fair" is first class rubbish.
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You have a govt. in Gaza now in charge who's goal is to 'throw Israel into the sea' you don't like Israels reaction to that plan and you call them names like genocidal maniacs or you say that Israel is oppressive.
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Israel's stated goal was the elimination of this group, and all who support it...which would imply Gaza and a good chunk of the West Bank. There is a drastic difference between what is said and what is necessary to accept because of political circumstance. Mind you, the rhetoric is bizarre on either side. Hamas is no more "terrorist" than Israel is "oppressive". Which, of course, isn't to say that either are guilty of what they are accused of to some degree. But then, the shoe fits on either foot.
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You ignore the fact that Israel is a legal state and was attacked muliple times and through the victory of war they took land away from those who were defeated and you don't care to bring up the fact that they have given back land to the very people who attacked them in exchange for peace.
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The giving back land is a joke. That Israel was attacked is more duplicity; had any other group done that on contemporary American soil, or had some foreign bodies bless such a set-up...no Westerner who has an iota of nationalistic sentiment would accept the imposition of such an "entity" or state.
That Israel made gains through military means is a dangerous argument, as it accepts gains through war and if one wants to be even handed should give the Arabs the same right to grab land. Considering this conflict is anything but over...that sounds like an acceptance and invitation to further violence.
There is only one main point:
Israel has every much a right to exist as Palestine...*today...right now...as we speak. The Palestinians should not have to fight for their land any more than the Israelis do. No negotiation, no talks…it exists.
Anything else is sophistry.
Now you tell me who on either side of the fence agrees with that sentiment? Note that this is certainly not official policy (where the non-existence of Palestine is presumed), nor is it a popular opinion in the West.
Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
aye lets blame the victim instead right? b'jesus thats twisted.
No your logic is twisted. Just as a murderer can't claim victimhood cuz he's in prison. They are victims of a wreckless Arab policy over 60 years.
Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
picioco:
“Israel’s right to exist is tied to Palestine’s.”
To talk about Israel’s “right” to exist is an insult to Palestinians.
Israel may be “allowed” to exist, but it has no “right” for that. For Palestinians to accept Israel’s “right” to exist is accepting the subhuman treatment they have received at the hands of the fascist regime.
And to what borders does Israel have the “right”?
Noam Chomsky has criticized the term “right to exist” by saying it is unique to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and not a normal term used in international relations. He said that, “The US and Israel have demanded further that Palestinians not only recognize Israel’s rights as a state in the international system, but that they also recognize Israel’s abstract ‘right to exist’, a concept that has no place in international law and diplomacy, and a right claimed by no one. In effect, the US and Israel are demanding Palestinians not only recognize Israel in the normal fashion of interstate relations,but also formally accept the legitimacy of their expulsion from their land. They cannot be expected to accept that, just as Mexico does not grant the US the ‘right to exist’ on half of Mexico’s territory, gained by conquest.”
There is an enormous difference between “recognizing Israel’s existence” and “recognizing Israel’s right to exist.” From a Palestinian perspective, the difference is in the same league as the difference between asking a Jew to acknowledge that the Holocaust happened and asking him to concede that the Holocaust was morally justified. For Palestinians to acknowledge the occurrence of the Nakba – the expulsion of the great majority of Palestinians from their homeland between 1947 and 1949 – is one thing. For them to publicly concede that it was “right” for the Nakba to have happened would be something else entirely. For the Jewish and Palestinian peoples, the Holocaust and the Nakba, respectively, represent catastrophes and injustices on an unimaginable scale that can neither be forgotten nor forgiven.
To demand that Palestinians recognize “Israel’s right to exist” is to demand that a people who have been treated as subhumans unworthy of basic human rights publicly proclaim that they are subhumans. It would imply Palestinians’ acceptance that they deserve what has been done and continues to be done to them. Even 19th-century US governments did not require the surviving native Americans to publicly proclaim the “rightness” of their ethnic cleansing by European colonists as a condition precedent to even discussing what sort of land reservation they might receive. Nor did native Americans have to live under economic blockade and threat of starvation until they shed whatever pride they had left and conceded the point.
Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
picioco: "Israel's right to exist is tied to Palestine's."
To talk about Israel's "right" to exist is an insult to Palestinians. Israel may be "allowed" to exist, but it has no "right" for that. For Palestinians to accept Israel's "right" to exist is accepting the subhuman treatment they have received at the hands of the fascist regime.
Well, my point was those who speak of rights need to address the duplicity I mentioned.
If we are to take a realpolitik view, then I'm afraid the Palestinians are to blame for their situation because they are weak. All Muslims are to blame. What the hell were we thinking? The minute Napoleon arrived in Egypt, we should have reformed our militaries (the fact is, everything was in place to absorb modern innovations being developed in Europe) and attempted to counter-colonize Europe, or at the very least be a player on the geopolitical scene. Not only did we not understand how weak we were, we had no inkling of how to strengthen our hand.
Arrogance is a luxury only the powerful can afford. Arrogance in a position of weakness is just stupidity.
And yet here we are....
In our position of weakness, we should expect to be manipulated, used and abused. Or even cleansed. Why anger? I never understood this. There should be expectation on the abuse we get...not rage. Rage steams from a belief that the other side will play fair…or be just. What stupidity is this? Or perhaps rage steams from hopelessness. That we’re such easy prey. But again…how long can we wallow in self pity?
Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
i see when it comes to 12 years old palestinian boy the book of philosophy and politics opens up.lagay rahay you guys, hope you have kids one day that perhaps will draw an iota of empathy out of you.
Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
One important and the simplest point which is ignored by Ummah brigade is this --
Hamas, Hezbollah and other terror outfits should acknowledge that "Israel has a** right to exist"**
And these groups are NOT even ready to agree on this.....they openly call for destruction of Israel.
Forget Israel, How can any sovereign nation in the world will talk "peace" with such radical groups who do not care to accept that the other side has a right to co-exist?
And then ummah goes frenzy, crying that it's Israel, destroying "peace" .
Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
.
Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
One important and the simplest point which is ignored by Ummah brigade is this --
Hamas, Hezbollah and other terror outfits should acknowledge that "Israel has a** right to exist"**
And these groups are NOT even ready to agree on this.....they openly call for destruction of Israel.
Forget Israel, How can any sovereign nation in the world will talk "peace" with such radical groups who do not care to accept that the other side has a right to co-exist?
And then ummah goes frenzy, crying that it's Israel, destroying "peace" . **Bloody Hypocrites.
So you don't condemn the killing of a 12 years old boy either.......Why? Because he's a muslim? I can clearly see the hatred of some non-muslims for muslims here. And Israili terrorists not gonna stop these killings even after we accept them. Stay away from this thread and start another thread if you want where you can parchaar your hateful biassed views. We are good without your advice. Kaafir.
Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
This is exactly the view most Americans have of Palestinians. The peace process was a joke, and the understanding was that the Palestinians wouldn't be given a viable state, but a region under Israeli control. If indeed this is not the understanding, then people are ignorant of what the end result was of the last round of negotiations on what was proposed to the Palestinians.
Israel's right to exist is tied to Palestine's. That is the point of view many contemporary Muslims have, and most Westerners reject. The very fact that the Israeli state is recognized, while there is a question regarding the status of a Palestinian state speaks to this duplicity. So suggestions that the official Western stance on the situation is some how even handed of "fair" is first class rubbish.
Israel's stated goal was the elimination of this group, and all who support it...which would imply Gaza and a good chunk of the West Bank. There is a drastic difference between what is said and what is necessary to accept because of political circumstance. Mind you, the rhetoric is bizarre on either side. Hamas is no more "terrorist" than Israel is "oppressive". Which, of course, isn't to say that either are guilty of what they are accused of to some degree. But then, the shoe fits on either foot.
The giving back land is a joke. That Israel was attacked is more duplicity; had any other group done that on contemporary American soil, or had some foreign bodies bless such a set-up...no Westerner who has an iota of nationalistic sentiment would accept the imposition of such an "entity" or state.
That Israel made gains through military means is a dangerous argument, as it accepts gains through war and if one wants to be even handed should give the Arabs the same right to grab land. Considering this conflict is anything but over...that sounds like an acceptance and invitation to further violence.
There is only one main point:
Israel has every much a right to exist as Palestine...*today...right now...as we speak. The Palestinians should not have to fight for their land any more than the Israelis do. No negotiation, no talks…it exists.
Anything else is sophistry.
Now you tell me who on either side of the fence agrees with that sentiment? Note that this is certainly not official policy (where the non-existence of Palestine is presumed), nor is it a popular opinion in the West.
Good points Pic...
Re: Israeli forces kill 12 Palestinians in Gaza raid
Well said!