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*Originally posted by Pak Brave Heart: *
India is NOT a colony of white european settlers who stole the land and oppressed the native people. India is ruled by its native people.
As of Israel, it is an illegal creation of British. Who gave the British the right to create Israel on A-rab land ? How would you feel if some white people invaded Pak-istan and gave Kara-chi to gypsies ?
If you want to recognize Isreal, then you should have also recognized Apartheid South Africa and other foreign colonies.
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What is India doing in Kashmir? Distributing barfi? Who created the Kashmir problem if not the British? And you don't need to tell me about invasions and such of Karachi. I know what happened in the 80's and 90's, but that is another topic.
And why is Pakistan so friendly with US, the prime supporter of Israel? Didn't the whites colonize America?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ak47: *
Deal with jews openly i think its quite clear from your posts you are happy to accept the state of israel for whatever reason.
Your statement is not accurate, the muslim world does'nt except israeli state, it stole muslim land and is a big thorn in the side of the muslims.
Israel is occupied land no matter what dictators say we do not accept that at all they don;t represent any muslim. If the muslims voice was being represented by the so called leaders there would'nt be a single muslims who would accept the israeli state!
The zionist state of israel openly helps India kill muslims in Kashmir no doubt using there expertise in occupation techniques, and also they are helping them spy on Pakistan so israel is activly working against the muslims around the world and against pakistan also so it becomes an enemny state and should always be treated as one!
As for pakistan I appluad there decsion to not recognize the zionist state if it is sincere!
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AK47 ji, going by your school of thought, then we should not even have an Indian embassy in Pakistan or for that matter any where in the so called Muslim world, because of the fact that the Indians have occupied the valley of Jammu and Kashmir. The only reason I support the idea of Pakistan recognizing the state of Isreal, is because of the fact that in the real world the Jewish lobby(like it or not), hold tremendous amount of power. In the U.S. capital where power structures are drawn, the Indian-Jewish lobby are at the moment working against the Land of Pure. I suggest to counter this nexus. We the Pakistanis need to create our own Pakistan-moderate Isrealis nexus. In the process we dont necessarily need to recognize the occupation of Palestine, after all, lets not forget that we do have Indian embassy in the Islamic state of Pakistan, and we do not recognize the valley of Jammu and Kashmir being part of India. We can apply the same philosphy in Isreals case.
AK47 ji, going by your school of thought, then we should not even have an Indian embassy in Pakistan or for that matter any where in the so called Muslim world, because of the fact that the Indians have occupied the valley of Jammu and Kashmir. The only reason I support the idea of Pakistan recognizing the state of Isreal, is because of the fact that in the real world the Jewish lobby(like it or not), hold tremendous amount of power. In the U.S. capital where power structures are drawn, the Indian-Jewish lobby are at the moment working against the Land of Pure. I suggest to counter this nexus. We the Pakistanis need to create our own Pakistan-moderate Isrealis nexus. In the process we dont necessarily need to recognize the occupation of Palestine, after all, lets not forget that we do have Indian embassy in the Islamic state of Pakistan, and we do not recognize the valley of Jammu and Kashmir being part of India. We can apply the same philosphy in Isreals case.
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Pakistan embassy in India is bugged to rooftops and the ambassador is treated worse than a leper.
As a muslim i do not accept israel it fobidden to accept non muslim stealing muslim land no matter what the economic or politcal benefit because this is not my criteria from which i base my thoughts.
I already mention examples in previous post that Israel supplies technology and weapons, intelligence, expertise etc to India in order for them to commit terror on muslims in kashmir aswell as undermine pakistan.
Israel cannot be trusted by a single muslim for obvious reasons they break every convention they sign so for anyone to even think they would have sincere intentions is livin on cloud cuckoo land.
The US/Israeli lobbies appears strong because there intrests are the same once the intrests differ as in short while they will be over occupied land and the American plan for 2 states you will see how weak this influence really is. Contray to myth the mini mouse state of israel does not control the politics and way of life in the US, the US dominates israel and tolerates it to a degree similar to saudi.
Europe is not going around making european lobby in US it is uniting its states and making counter balance to the US colonialism. The muslims have advantage of having majority of worlds wealth and resources they must unite and have there own state which protect them and there affairs this is the correct soloution.
AK47 ji, regardless of whether the Pakistan embassy is bugged to the rooftop or not, the fact remains that we do have an embassy in New Delhi, and maintain a working diplomatic relationship with the Indians(good or bad, that's completely different discussion). Also, again going by your school of thought, we should also than not have a Russian embassy in Islamabad, since they are the largest provider of defence equipment to India, but the fact remains that we do have a cordial relationship with the Russians. As I formentioned in the previous posts, that the only reason I think we need to have a diplomatic relationship with the state of Isreal is to counter the Indian-Jewish nexus. In the process, I also must say that we dont have to trust the Isrealis at all, afterall we do mis trust the Indians, but we have been dealing with them for decades.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Pak Brave Heart: *
If you want to recognize Isreal, then you should have also recognized Apartheid South Africa and other foreign colonies.
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Pakistan recognizes every country except Israel.
At one side Musharraf is stomping on Muslim idiots (extremists), and on the other he is trying to please them by not recognizing Israel.
*Let me ask you a question. * Why dont you want Pakistan to recognize Israel? Because they are occupying Palestine? Because they dont deserve to have a country?
Morality means nothing to you right. Like the US and others didnt support Aparthied. We dont support Israel. Morality should not only govern human life but also national policy.
Musharraff making the announcement publicly now that he wishes for pakistan to have realationship with the Zionist entity of israel, this on the back of a visit to the White house no doubt after some words from his paymaster that he should now recognize a brutal aparthied state called israel that has been killing muslims for past 50+ years.
The Business man mentioned in this article is a close friend of Musharrafs.
Seven Pak businessmen visit Israel
By Nusrat Javeed
ISLAMABAD: At least seven, and not one, businessmen from Pakistan discreetly visited Israel in the last week of June.
This correspondent is still not very sure of their names. After reading the fine print of a recent piece by Ikram Sehgal, an entrepreneur-cum-opinion building columnist from Karachi, however, one is tempted to infer that he was included among those visitors.
Most of them had apparently went to Israel from Jordan after attending the much-hyped congregation of World Economic Forum (WEF), held from June 21 to 23 at Shounneh, a resort on the Dead Sea.
Eleven heads of state and 36 ministers from different countries interacted with top business executives, and movers and shakers of the global economy there. The UN secretary general and a former US president, Bill Clinton, addressed some of the WEF sessions.
Pakistan was represented by a delegation of minister-level finance managers, including Hafiz Sheikh, besides a select group of private sector entrepreneurs. Israel’s presence was also high profile.
On a Pakistani passport, you can travel “all countries except Israel.” Yet some people from this country have been occasionally slipping into that country in the name of visiting some historic sites, also considered “holy” by Muslims. A few would hunt for the business and trade prospects through third countries.
The visit of businesspersons from Pakistan last month appeared more significant. It occurred in the context of General Pervez Musharraf’s loud and repeated promotion of the idea of holding “serious national debate” over the question of recognising Israel, before, during, and after the historic summit, he had with the US president at Camp David on June 24.
The General had launched the idea through an exclusive interview with Geo Television before boarding a plane to Washington and strongly backed it up during another talk with the same network at the conclusion of his US visit.
Quoting a prestigious daily of Israel, Haaretz, The News had already reported that a group of concerned Israeli officials watched and analysed Musharraf’s remarks to Geo Television Network regarding the possible recognition of their country by “an important Muslim country” like Pakistan.
One of its leading correspondents, Yossi Melman, who specialises reporting on foreign, strategic and security affairs, rather revealed that General Musharraf’s Israel-friendly remarks at the end of his US visit “preceded by the visit to Israel last week of a Pakistani businessman, who is considered one of the close associates of the President.”
Israeli officials believed that the businessperson was “apparently sent to test the waters as to whether Israel, which has close ties with Pakistan’s traditional foe, India, would be interested in relations with Pakistan as well.”
When this correspondent tried to find out the name of “Pakistani businessman,” who presumably visited Israel “to test the waters” for General Musharraf, a well-placed source at Pakistan’s foreign office only admitted that an “influential Pakistani has visited Israel in mid-June.”
Our source, however, was not very sure whether the said Pakistani was on some “track-II openings to Israel.”
Most Islamabad-based diplomats, who keenly observe developments on Pakistan’s political and diplomatic scene, strongly suspected that a New York based American of Pakistan origin, Mansoor Ejaz, might have gone there in June 2003 for General Musharraf.
Ejaz is a high stake investor at the Wall Street who also emerged as big player of the global diplomatic games in mid-1990s. He is believed to have strongly influenced the high or poor ratings of various governments in Islamabad by the White House.
Working for the “lasting peace” between Pakistan and India through managing a “creative and win-win” formula for the resolution of the Kashmir imbroglio, Ejaz also established reputation of a “delivering” freelance diplomat of the track-II variety. Through a series of lengthy interviews to mostly Indian media in the first six months of 2001, he would even claim that Prime Minister Vajpayee had announced cessation of initiating combats against Kashmiri militants in November 2000 on his advice.
The purpose of the “unilateral declaration of ceasing fire” in the held Valley was to create an environment, which should encourage militants and freedom fighters to sit for negotiations with New Delhi for a peaceful resolution of Kashmir.
Ejaz had repeatedly claimed that his scheme could not take off for the rigid resistance of some hawkish elements from within Pakistan’s “establishment”.
His opponents, however, always dismissed him as a “self-promoting operator.” Some people in Pakistan’s foreign office and the security establishment also accused him of “actually working for the powerful Jewish lobby in the USA.”
Whatever the truth, Ejaz is no more a high profile operator on Indo-Pak scene. He could also not click, perhaps, with Republicans controlling the White House these days.
Instead of Mansoor Ejaz, anyway, we would still be interested to find out as to who went to Israel last month for “testing the waters” on General Musharraf’s proposal of recognising that country. No credible person from the government of Pakistan is yet willing to spill the beans, off and on the record.
Some sources at the Chambers of Commerce and Industry in Karachi and Islamabad approached this correspondent, however, “only to correct” that instead of one, “seven businesspersons from Pakistan had recently visited Israel.”
Although very kind in correcting, our sources would still not name the names. The recent column of Ikram Sehgal in a contemporary newspaper might help resolve the mystery, though.
Ostensibly, the column focused to highlight results and impact of the visit General Musharraf had recently made to the USA, Britain, Germany, and France.
After the profuse eulogy, however, the columnist comes down to expressing disappointment on “Musharraf’s backtracking somewhat on the recognition of Israel.”
Sincerely hoping that the presumed backtracking is “tactical retreat rather than any strategic rethinking,” Mr Sehgal admits to have come across many Israelis at seminars and conferences, who “do not have the horns they are supposed to have, in fact one finds them very logical and correct.”
Still, the columnist reports in the piece that perceptions about Pakistan, amongst Israelis he met were negative than positive. “Having left the field open to a hardcore enemy (India) to exploit,” Pakistanis are held, implicitly, responsible for this negative perception. “What stops us from having dialogue and commerce the way we have with Taiwan?” wonders the columnist.
After introspective questioning, the columnist then jumps to reveal that he savoured the “rare privilege of praying at Al-Aqsa Mosque (Islam’s third holiest site).” Without telling as to when he savoured the blessed experience, Sehgal then narrated the scene there in an inspired mood.
Despite “Intifada” and Israel’s brute repression of it, the columnist also noticed the existence of working understanding between Israelis and the Palestinian personnel guarding the holy sites. “One must remember that in Jerusalem, mosques, churches, synagogues are liberally within an (instead of “at”) arm’s length of each other,” he affirms excitedly.
Through an earlier column, Ikram Sehgal had already reported his attending the World Economic Forum at Shounneh last month. Can we safely say that he went to Israel after that “for saying prayers at Al-Aqsa?”
Besides being a successful trader and entrepreneur, Sehgal is also very regular in spinning the feel-good stories about the perceptions and policies of our national security outfits for the print and electronic media of Pakistan. That possibly puts him in the category of “businessmen, testing the waters” for a president-in-uniform. When would he be telling us the whole truth?
Malik ji, you are absolutely right, and in the process also start a working relationship with the Isrealis. As far as the recognitiopn of the state of Isreal is concerned, we dont have to go all out and recognise them, just a working relationship. So that in future if our Pakistani brothers and sisters do face any problem while traveling to the state of Isreal
(Jerusalem), we do have some means to help them out.
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Zulfi, I expect that if Pakistan recognises Israel it will do so jointly with the rest of the Islamic world and probably at the same time i.e. probably some time in 2005, when an independent Palestine is awarded recognition by Israel and the rest of the world.
What you think of excepting state of Israel? My opinion of that is...YES
we should except Isreal without any doubt and its right to exist. Not only that, some arab nations such as Egypt,Jordan, and Turkey excepted it..why can't we. Secondly, those Lousy arabs has given us nothing in the past. And as long as Palestine issue, LET them ( Arabs) fight their own war..don't drag any other Islamic state such as Pakistan in the middle. Anyway, just tell me what you think?
If Israeli-Palestinian issue is solved amiciably then there is no justification not accepting Israel.. but many of our politicians and religious leaders are alive with disputes like that.. its really hard to get away from that taboo even if Palestinians accept them!
Ppl think about WE don't have ANY dispute with Israel so far...so why can't we. Above all we'll get more help from Israel strategically. Rahayy..MMA..round em up and kill them all. Those hypos Mullahs.
Also, the countries we are siding with in not recognizing Israel, actually have closer relations with India, and some have even been openly pro Indian.
To hell with israel i don’t care about money or political leverage against india.
Israel is a cancer in the muslim world and needs to be erased not fed and kept alive with muslim blood
mashallah the ummah does not capitulate like the corrupted regimes and some individuals who seek some crumbs from the table in the form of some money being given to musharraff who proabably making his bank account even fatter !
