Re: isnt this blatant blasphemy by a molvi?
condition*
if {do not cease == TRUE}*
action
{we will incite you against them .....} <----DID NOT SAY KILL THEM..
The Clinton campaign offers such legalese as a defense. (This is not a reflection on topic at hand, just comment on the algorithm developed by above poster).
Re: isnt this blatant blasphemy by a molvi?
What a logic in the bold part!!!! I mean wow.
Lets agree to this logic, now what will you call following categories of Muslims:
(i) Muslims of Makkah who kept on praying in privacy and hide their beliefs during initial years of Islam. For me they were not munafiq, as against your logic.
(ii) 2-3 generations of Spanish Muslims (Moors), after takeover by Christians in 1492, kept on practicing Islam in privacy and even publicly disclosed them as christian. What will you call them? Hypocrite or persecuted?
I think either your logic is incorrect or you follow well known logic full of hypocrisy i.e. tera kutta kutta hai, mera kutta tommy.
You mean moonstar went to ksa for preaching purpose?
You mean moonstar went to ksa for preaching purpose?
forget it. Don't have time to refute to your double standards.
People have some compulsions and due to this they make compromises. That doesn't make them hypocrite as you stated in your post and when you were given some examples from Muslim history you backed out with irrelevant question.
You know what the kind of attitude you have shown in this thread leads to question about overall hypocrisy of Muslims. They used 'there is no compulsion in religion' type verses when they were weak and as soon as they came into power they forgot substantial portion of Quran revealed during the period before migration to Medina. All the lessons for tolerance, forgiveness, etc in Makki Quran have been forgotten. What was remembered 'pakRo, maaro, gardanen uRa do'. When you were weak, you got backing of diplomatic verses and when you became dominant you only know persecution and interpreted your scripture accordingly. What a shame and futility of the religion, which was revolutionary in its very roots.
Re: isnt this blatant blasphemy by a molvi?
(part of surah ahzab used in this video) "
Allah and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.
Those who annoy Allah and His Messenger - Allah has cursed them in this World and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them a humiliating Punishment.
And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin.
O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them: Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time:
They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy).
(Such was) the practice (approved) of Allah among those who lived aforetime: No change wilt thou find in the practice (approved) of Allah.
"
The word use in arabic for"annoy" is some what like* "azee'at"* which is some what mixture of torture + physical harm + harassment.
So ones doing that are being warned.
Warning is not new concept here, its found in quran over and over. Usually it come with condition or way to stop it. Which in this example is "desist ".
One thing I can see from this video, Mr Paracha must have done this argument over and over in his personal life, only then a person learn such trickery.
BTW in surah baqrah... jews of Madina were accused of such tongue twisting to put their own meaning in their scriptures.
Re: isnt this blatant blasphemy by a molvi?
Can you give this in 5 bullet points (8 words per point)
Re: isnt this blatant blasphemy by a molvi?
Non Muslims should be thrown out for insulting a prophet?? Why?????? I would rather throw all the bearded mullahs out. Non muslims are just as Pakistani as anyone else. Where do you think they should go?
Non muslims want to make fun of the prophet, make cartoons of the prophet, make fun of what is in the quran, god himself - sure thing, go ahead. We should have no problem with any of it. Because the prophet we worship had much worst things done to him by non muslims in his lifetime. He got spat on in streets of Makkah and he responded with kindness unlike the so called thekedars of islam. That is the reason why Islam spread in the first place with kindness towards non-muslims.
What these mullahs are spreading in Pakistan and other parts of muslim world is cancer not islam.
IF there is a law in a country , ppl of that country need to follow that law. The correctness of the law need to be another question.
( that is the law need to be changed. Same what salman taseer was saying ) Maybe you have a better suggestion.
Where they should go is a correct question and i dont have any answer for that. But for me death penalty for them is not correct.
Re: isnt this blatant blasphemy by a molvi?
you mean non Muslims should be deported if they do blasphemy? Death penalty for muslims only or for none? so who will decide who is so called thekedaar and who is right? Tandoor ka jala you know :D
For muslims death penalty only if they are given fair chance to defend themself in acourt of law and they still continue to do blasphemy... i.e. this blasmphemy is intentional. The definition of blasphemy need to be cleared out. It should not be like the people put allegation on JJ and salman taseer .
I beleive according the defintion of these ppl ( including u ) U will put allegation on me and all posters in this thread who are opposite you. This trend is very dangerous and I fear this trend gonna increase more and more.
BTW ur langauge getting harsher.. " bakwaas bund nahi ki " u shud not be that in tolerant .
As for me chose to live in KSA. I try to follow the laws of this country... BTW I hope u travelled out site pakistan. Or even in paskistan if u pass by a cinema do u start putting clothes to the movies posters ??
Re: isnt this blatant blasphemy by a molvi?
For muslims death penalty only if they are given fair chance to defend themself in acourt of law and they still continue to do blasphemy... i.e. this blasmphemy is intentional. The definition of blasphemy need to be cleared out. It should not be like the people put allegation on JJ and salman taseer . I beleive according the defintion of these ppl ( including u ) U will put allegation on me and all posters in this thread who are opposite you. This trend is very dangerous and I fear this trend gonna increase more and more.
BTW ur langauge getting harsher.. "** bakwaas bund nahi ki** " u shud not be that in tolerant.
As for me chose to live in KSA. I try to follow the laws of this country... BTW I hope u travelled out site pakistan. Or even in paskistan if u pass by a cinema do u start putting clothes to the movies posters ??
I will reply you in similar manners after seeing personal and judgmental post from you like one below.
Bhai mere. Do u think any one can argue with them... really.. after some argument they will define the person blasphemor. .. **U r seeing one ajazali around . **Did u see the example of malala hate speech given by him. Can u argue any more.. there r many more like him. N for me it is a surprise to be termed as liberal. ..
Re: isnt this blatant blasphemy by a molvi?
There you go ali.
If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is disease and those who spread rumors in al-Madinah do not cease, We will surely incite you against them; then they will not remain your neighbors therein except for a little. 33-60 condition if {do not cease == TRUE}
action {we will incite you against them .....} <---- DID NOT SAY KILL THEM..
Accursed wherever they are found, [being] seized and massacred completely. 33-61so some action is told in previous ayat , then an other action in same time would be contradiction. This seems like, this would be commandment in future if they dont cease.
note: this whole surah is about family women and stuff about them...
On many level this Paracha dude took it out of context.
He didnt take things out of context. he just didnt explain every aspect as that is program of 30 odd minutes where every participant would get around 1 or 2 minutes per turn.
What if 'they' do not seize? who are 'they'?
Re: isnt this blatant blasphemy by a molvi?
What if 'they' do not seize? who are 'they'?
no one!! to us no one..
Its God's prerogative to give azzab to his creation. Not ours.
"Those who annoy Allah and His Messenger - Allah has cursed them in this World and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them a humiliating Punishment.
And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin.
O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them: Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time:
They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy).
(Such was) the practice (approved) of Allah among those who lived aforetime: No change wilt thou find in the practice (approved) of Allah.
"
This is work in progress. Some what like when little before when ppl of noah were hit by flood. Now imagie my fellow pakistnai chasing after sikhs/hindus in pakiatan, because they do not accept noah(as) as a prophet, and start drowning them.
Like I said its God's prerogative.
If any thing you need to feel that.
-Muslims are some what in power in madina.
=Their women facing worst kind of harassment.
-Yet God warns them to stop.
That is some serious tolerance.
Last to verse are telling, where God see them. Like what group the belong to.
Like before deleting file you put in in recycle bin.
See how its says "( No change wilt thou find in the practice (approved) of Allah."
But its between allah and his creation. Not Paracha sb.
Re: isnt this blatant blasphemy by a molvi?
no one!! to us no one.. Its God's prerogative to give azzab to his creation. Not ours.
"Those who annoy Allah and His Messenger - Allah has cursed them in this World and in the Hereafter, and has prepared for them a humiliating Punishment. And those who annoy believing men and women undeservedly, bear (on themselves) a calumny and a glaring sin. O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Truly, if the Hypocrites, and those in whose hearts is a disease, and those who stir up sedition in the City, desist not, We shall certainly stir thee up against them: Then will they not be able to stay in it as thy neighbours for any length of time: They shall have a curse on them: whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain (without mercy). (Such was) the practice (approved) of Allah among those who lived aforetime: No change wilt thou find in the practice (approved) of Allah. " **This is work in progress. **Some what like when little before when ppl of noah were hit by flood. Now imagie my fellow pakistnai chasing after sikhs/hindus in pakiatan, because they do not accept noah(as) as a prophet, and start drowning them. Like I said its God's prerogative.
If any thing you need to feel that. -Muslims are some what in power in madina. =Their women facing worst kind of harassment. -Yet God warns them to stop. That is some serious tolerance.
Last to verse are telling, where God see them. Like what group the belong to. Like before deleting file you put in in recycle bin. See how its says "( No change wilt thou find in the practice (approved) of Allah."
But its between allah and his creation. Not Paracha sb.
33:61 If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is disease and those who spread rumors in al-Madinah do not cease, We will surely incite you against them; then they will not remain your neighbors therein except for a little.
33:61 Accursed wherever they are found, [being] seized and massacred completely.
33:62 This is] the established way of Allah with those who passed on before; and you will not find in the way of Allah any change.
If they do not stop, no one should stop them. let them say whatever they want to say about prophet (s.a.w.). Considering 33:62 if Allah wants to stop them He will directly order someone from us to continue His established way, right?
Re: isnt this blatant blasphemy by a molvi?
Nothing to say after seeing ur comments.. there is a difference in being judgmental and using bad words.
Re: isnt this blatant blasphemy by a molvi?
If they do not stop, no one should stop them. let them say whatever they want to say about prophet (s.a.w.). Considering 33:62 if Allah wants to stop them He will directly order someone from us to continue His established way, right?
Interesting and how will Allah communicate and select people to go and kill the gustakh? Paghambar to aane se rahe.
If we go by your theory and accept the never forgiving Mullahs like Paracha and cruel Taliban / LeJ as the people selected by Allah, then let allow people that there is something inherently wrong with Islam. Their God loves to be called Rehman (the most merciful), their prophet is called Rehmat ul lil aalameen, and the best selected people of God are never forgiving and only know one command 'Maaro, pakRo, gardan uRa do'. Change name of religion from Islam (peace) to Revenge, as its the only sentiment that prevails among the so called lovers of Islam and Prophet.
Re: isnt this blatant blasphemy by a molvi?
Well, one meaning (and many argue the "only meaning") is submission.
Re: isnt this blatant blasphemy by a molvi?
Interesting and how will Allah communicate and select people to go and kill the gustakh? Paghambar to aane se rahe.
If we go by your theory and accept the never forgiving Mullahs like Paracha and cruel Taliban / LeJ as the people selected by Allah, then let allow people that there is something inherently wrong with Islam. Their God loves to be called Rehman (the most merciful), their prophet is called Rehmat ul lil aalameen, and the best selected people of God are never forgiving and only know one command 'Maaro, pakRo, gardan uRa do'. Change name of religion from Islam (peace) to Revenge, as its the only sentiment that prevails among the so called lovers of Islam and Prophet.
You are doing it wrong here by bringing out of context examples. No one deny his Rehmat ul lil aalameen status. Those verses mention clearly that prophet's reputation is Islam's reputation. I have told you difference earlier. Quran is book of hikmah. It also warn that murder is bad but fitna is worse tham murder. But if you expect Islam to be inline with modern ethnics of disbelievers then feel sorry for such trend. Maybe newer generation will start criticizing prophet's jihad too.
Re: isnt this blatant blasphemy by a molvi?
I wonder why so much fuss. If blasphemor acknowledges his mistake in court and stops doing blasphemy then no death penalty. If he still continues and persist and you want him free to do so then this is beyond my understanding that why some people want this. Maybe to please West or they are just apologetic.
Re: isnt this blatant blasphemy by a molvi?
Re: isnt this blatant blasphemy by a molvi?
You are doing it wrong here by bringing out of context examples. No one deny his Rehmat ul lil aalameen status. Those verses mention clearly that prophet's reputation is Islam's reputation. I have told you difference earlier. Quran is book of hikmah. It also warn that murder is bad but fitna is worse tham murder. But if you expect Islam to be inline with modern ethnics of disbelievers then feel sorry for such trend. Maybe newer generation will start criticizing prophet's jihad too.
How come that out of context. If that is out of context, please let me know the mechanism where Allah will select people to punish gustakh? Don't you know think criticizing every action and statement of others is also a fitna. Why can't we follow 'Lakum deenkum waliya din' today? Let them say what they want to say and if you want to show any reaction, show that through reason and research. You just can't stop people expressing their views. The kind of reaction Muslims show based on peculiar interpretation of Mullahs also creates fitna due to wastage of innocent lives and destruction of public property.
I wonder why so much fuss. If blasphemor acknowledges his mistake in court and stops doing blasphemy then no death penalty. If he still continues and persist and you want him free to do so then this is beyond my understanding that why some people want this. Maybe to please West or they are just apologetic.
Apology is not when you prove that you are tolerant and can rebut any attack with reason. Apology is when you let people know that your faith is so fragile that you only know one solution for all the attacks and i.e. punishment.
If things could have been as simple as your statement, we would never see Mumtaz Qadri killing Taseer not attack on Junaid Jamshed. Let me know how many Mullahs promoted message of tolerance on 'Youm e Ishq e Rasool'. The kind of pictures and videos came after this day shown burnt cinemas, banks, etc.
I don't think that our society is that civilized to forgive people, who in their opinion committed blasphemy. People need to taught that there are other ways to react blasphemous attacks other than burning tires, building and in worst case people.
Re: isnt this blatant blasphemy by a molvi?
How come that out of context. If that is out of context, please let me know the mechanism where Allah will select people to punish gustakh? Don't you know think criticizing every action and statement of others is also a fitna.** Why can't we follow 'Lakum deenkum waliya din' today? **Let them say what they want to say and if you want to show any reaction, show that through reason and research. You just can't stop people expressing their views. The kind of reaction Muslims show based on peculiar interpretation of Mullahs also creates fitna due to wastage of innocent lives and destruction of public property.
Apology is not when you prove that you are tolerant and can rebut any attack with reason. Apology is when you let people know that your faith is so fragile that you only know one solution for all the attacks and i.e. punishment.
If things could have been as simple as your statement, we would never see Mumtaz Qadri killing Taseer not attack on Junaid Jamshed. Let me know how many Mullahs promoted message of tolerance on 'Youm e Ishq e Rasool'. The kind of pictures and videos came after this day shown burnt cinemas, banks, etc.
I don't think that our society is that civilized to forgive people, who in their opinion committed blasphemy. People need to taught that there are other ways to react blasphemous attacks other than burning tires, building and in worst case people.
Yes deen was completed 1400 years ago, no need to follow it anymore.
Maybe following sabeen could help as you said Insha Allah.
Re: isnt this blatant blasphemy by a molvi?
Yes deen was completed 1400 years ago, no need to follow it anymore. Maybe following sabeen could help as you said Insha Allah.
Its not me who is trying to follow one portion and reject other portion of Quran. My question all across this thread has been 'why can't we follow Makki Quran, where tolerance, forgiveness, sabr is the biggest message'?
BTW, nice try to deviate discussion by bringing Sabeen in discussion.