A problem that we have here is the misunderstanding of how to go about marriage in Islam.
Unfortunately many of us mistake Pakistani style marriages with Islamic marriages. In some cases there is nothing wrong with the Pakistani marriage as long as the man and woman consent it is fine but what is actually the Islamic method of going about marriage??
In Islam we are allowed to meet and socialise with a prospective spouse as it is important to get to know the person before one goes about marriage as searching for a rishta isn't like going to a meat market but is an important commitment which can't be decided in a half hour meeting where a man ogles the girl and then decideds whether she is good enough. Islam permits us to meet the girls and socialise with her to decide whether one is compatible the other or not. However although you knock the ideas of mahram these are parts of the Islamic process about going about marriage. When being in the womans presence there should be mahram and this is fard from Islam. As long as like her brother is in the room or like if at dinner the brother or father is at another table, there should be no problems with speaking and worling out whether this is the ideal woman or man for you.
It gets haram if the woman is met without mahram and this is what needs to be avoided.
However Islam fully permits and encourages getting to know a prospective spouse before marriage so one can recognise whether this is the right man/woman or not. A marriage isn't just about looks but there has to be that emotional compatibility as well as that physical compatibility. The one condition for meeting the woman/man is that mahram is present.
I don't know how ISNA events are run but if the men meet the woman with mahram then there is no problem but if they just go without mahram and start meeting men/woman then this is no different from a girlfriend as such.
Islam does give us the right to choose our spouse but it has conditions on how to meet this propsective spouse.
So I hope Muslims and non Muslims can stop assuming that marriage in Islam is the forced marriages or 1/2 hour meeting we have in Pakistan to decide marriages.
It gets haram if the woman is met without mahram and this is what needs to be avoided.
Right...so that story about God sending a revelation declaring bibi Ayesha innocent when rumours of an affair sprung from when she was escorted by a general or officer of some sort ALONE with him totally is in accordance with you can't do anything without mehram mard...
By the way Sheikh, at your convenience please drop me a PM with a reference to the ayah that you derived your above statement from. If its from a hadith, that's fine, send me reference to that too. If you're busy, then dont worry about it, i'll get to it someday.
yeh mehram mehram kya hay?? women aren't poodles who need to be on an owner's leash.. they are only required to observe a simple modest dress code (no 'hijabs' please thank u that's not obeying Allah that's obeying scholars) and the guys are supposed to be decent around them. (lowering the gaze is a part of it.. staring is bad manners..but you knew that already).
more power to ISNA or PGA or whatever and wherever you want to meet up with people.. gets you outta the house away from Gupshup and gives your skin the much needed exposure to sunlight.
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Originally posted by PyariCgudia: *
**Its possible that her uncle intervened for facilitation and because it was a TRADITIONAL PAGAN ARAB CUSTOM! *
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The presence of a facilitator, or in other terms, a chaperone, is required. The sole reason is because a girl and a guy cannot meet on their own, unless they are either mehrams, or chaperoned. So its not just a pagan arab custom as you put it.
People would have less of a problem with your views if you did not go to the other extreme, and tried to pass them off as ones 'mandated by Islam'. Just like religious zealots go to the other extreme, erroneously using Quranic and prophetic injunctions to justify their crass actions. Your actions are your actions. Noone should have a problem with them so long as you dont try to pass them off as something they are not.
Its like trying to sell a home made gola kunda with a Pepsi label on it.
[quote]
Posted by Boss
As for the tradition of Larki parading in front of na-mehrams... serving 'chai' to her possible rishta..I think we have beaten this topic to death. This is a third class tradition if not ridiculous and I don't see no 'islam' in this kind of showcase.
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I think you are relying way too much on Pakistani dramas and movies in forming your opinions about how the marriage process works in most pakistani families. The above description holds true for perhaps less than 5% of the population, otherwise, to date, I have yet to see this scenario acted out. Nowadays, meetings are much more informal, and relatively stress free. People have grown out of that mughal era mentality. Then tend to take a long term perspective of things.
Stereotyping is not fair, whether youre at the giving end, or the receiving end.
umm...every marriage in my family has the lady-carrying-in-chai scene in it. I think there were like 2 families that didn't do it, and the girl sat and talked with the potentials. But, I dont know what reaction the girls got from doing that.
dramas do add the glamour to it, but the chai scene is very much present in our des.
also, akif, sorry if i've offended you, but when Khadija proposed to the Rasul, it was before Islam was revealed, and before she coverted to Islam. Otherwise, her prior beliefs were not what they were to become, and the same goes for her behavior. The Rasul was a perfect model for mankind since he was born, but Khadija was not the Prophet that everything she or her family did before converting was halaal.
Again, parent intervention is not Islamically required. If it is, then show me appropriate text. If you want, this could be an interesting discussion for the religion forum (so the thread doesn't go off track).
Oh and by the way, I dont sell anything with a pepsi label on it. What things are , they are. Sometimes the fault lies within those that point fingers.
well excuse me but there is a time and place for everything...i dont attend jaloos to find myself a woman...orgionally i thought ISNA was all about different scholers giving speeches on Islam..but i guess its more then that now
OK first let me ask what does "bibi" mean? And 2nd who said females are a burden? I am a female 24 and not even considering marriage, and if I am a spinster that's just fine by me, and I really don't care what people think or say. My parents have not said a word to me yet but maybe in the long run even if they do, well that's just too damn bad because they might have a say in everything else in my life but when it comes down to something like this, they don't!
Another thing this whole "chai scene" is not only done in Pakistan, its done through out the whole Middle east from Turkey all the way to Yemen, but I don't like it, and never have I paraded around some guy just because him or his family can take a look at me. I don't really care about customs or what religious ideas people might have about marriages.
I never really get it, why soo many people and I do mean Muslims, think that when a girl gets to a certain age, she's needs to be married and if she hasn't gotten a rishta (as desi's would call it) yet they start to worry and try to find one for her. PLZZZZZZZZ what ever happen to "Pride" come on people wake up, this is all about fate, if you're a true Muslim you would understand that everything is organized by Allah (swt) and what ever he wants will happen, whenever he wants it to.
I don't come to this board anymore, but I just wanted to reply to this tread. I have nothing against many Pakistanis but there are soo many racists here, and they think Arabs are, Persians are? yeah right I think racism runs through ever Muslim blood, there all the same but they just don't know it, yeah maybe a few things are different like culture and etc ... but down deep there all the same. They seem to all hate each other!!!!!!!!!
So if your Pakistani....... Allah Hafiz
if your Persian...............Khuda Hafiz
if your Arab...................Ma'salam
if your a Turk.................Allaha ismarladik
*if your a MUSLIM.......... Wa Salam *
Hey Majestic, don't let a few black sheep ruin your experience here. :)
Its a great website, don't let "them" get to ya.
[quote]
I have nothing against many Pakistanis but there are soo many racists here, and they think Arabs are, Persians are? yeah right I think racism runs through ever Muslim blood, there all the same but they just don't know it, yeah maybe a few things are different like culture and etc ... but down deep there all the same. They seem to all hate each other!!!!!!!!!
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Arabs accusing Pakistani's of racism??! ... what chutzpah!! Muslim race relations would be a lot better if the Arabs can snap out of that superiority complex of theirs.
Pakistani Abroad you are generalising. A lot of friends of mine are Arab and treat me with respect. I have aten at Arabs houses and the elders have treated me with respect.
Now i can generalise and say that all Pakis dislike Arabs but i don't think this is the case. Yes there are Arabs who dislike Pakistanis and there are Pakistani who dislike Arabs but why be part of it. If people submit to ignorance then why should we. This is why we are divided because we look at stupid issues like nationalism. Like some idiots who being Muslims speak about how Gujurat is not a Pakistani issue so why should we bother. However there are good signs, when the bombing of Afghanistan was happening there were protest from Nigerai upto Indonesia. I know someone will mention how the Arabs never protest. You can get away with it in Pakistan. In the Arab world their version of the ISI is a lot more brutal. Punishments like being blindfolded while hearing your wife getting raped, or breaking babies necks to electrocution, everything. A lot of sincere Muslim Arabs can be found in the jails and cemetaries.
And as a small note Pakistanis are Muslim today because an Arab invaded the region. I'm not saying that we should worship them but i don't see why all the prejudice.
Allah equates nationalism as having sex with your mother 30 times round the Ka'abah so then why hold these values.
Majestic i don't know why you brought up the issue in this particular topic as i didn't see any racism.
If i was a nationality what would i be. My family 55 years ago were Indian and now Pakistani, does it make a difference,no. Does it make me better than anyone just because i am Pakistani. No, so why all the fuss.
Don't make a big deal out of it Sheikh, Majestic is just a pessimist. :)
You know I just don't get it why in the world do Pakistanis hate Arabs? When Arabs, Persians and Turks have a thing with one another its just because they have a history together but Pakistanis??????? WHY, why the hell do you people judge every damnn Arab the same, that's makes me sick. It makes me sick when I meet a Pakistani and when they ask me what I am and I say Arab they give me the rudest look why, how come you just don't give people a chance. But you know what, there is no difference between Arabs and Pakistanis, no difference whatsoever, but they keep thinking there is, how funny. But don't worry (you know who you people are here) I will leave your board that way it can ONLY be Pakistanis, that way you people can go on and speaking among yourselves.
Ma’am you are :topic: 
so u r leaving eh? 
Nothin much! just trying out these new smilies.
Al no Araba al-spoiluN ma thread-Un ok?..ma-please-alfishahar! :nono:
Majestic, don't let a few bad apples spoil your impression of the whole lot. Enjoy yourself while you're here and forget about the jerks, they're only jerks after all, even if they strive to be better, they can't.
I can understand your sentiment Majestic in that i am sure there are Pakistanis who don't like Arabs and vice versa. These are just those who are ignorant. There are also a lot of those who like Arabs and vice versa. A lot of my friends are Arab, like Egyptians, Iraqis, Palestinian etc and we see each other as brothers in Islam. There will be some idiots who will look down at me because i am not Arab but alhamudulilla that is a minority. I don't know your situation but those who see things from an Islamic viewpoint don't judge by nationality but see each others as fellow Muslims who are all in the same boat.
What i will say is that not all Pakistanis are the same and neither are all Arabs. There are those that are stupid and there are many who are not and see each other as brother and sister.
kitna shareef bacha hai! 
j/k
i totally and totally and totally agree with Sheraz and Akif!
keep those strong arguments up guyz! :k:
I simply don't understand this! Why do you all have to be apologetics?? Majestic is jumping up and down showing tantrums here and blackmailing you guys that she'd leave pak.org! SO be it byebye, who cares if she thinks that Pakistanis hate Arabs, we all know that this kinda gorss generalization can only be a product of ignorance. SO BYE BYE MAJESTIC !
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Majestic: *
OK first let me ask what does "bibi" mean? And 2nd who said females are a burden? I am a female 24 and not even considering marriage, and if I am a spinster that's just fine by me, and I really don't care what people think or say. My parents have not said a word to me yet but maybe in the long run even if they do, well that's just too damn bad because they might have a say in everything else in my life but when it comes down to something like this, they don't!
Another thing this whole "chai scene" is not only done in Pakistan, its done through out the whole Middle east from Turkey all the way to Yemen, but I don't like it, and never have I paraded around some guy just because him or his family can take a look at me. I don't really care about customs or what religious ideas people might have about marriages.
I never really get it, why soo many people and I do mean Muslims, think that when a girl gets to a certain age, she's needs to be married and if she hasn't gotten a rishta (as desi's would call it) yet they start to worry and try to find one for her. PLZZZZZZZZ what ever happen to "Pride" come on people wake up, this is all about fate, if you're a true Muslim you would understand that everything is organized by Allah (swt) and what ever he wants will happen, whenever he wants it to.
I don't come to this board anymore, but I just wanted to reply to this tread. I have nothing against many Pakistanis but there are soo many racists here, and they think Arabs are, Persians are? yeah right I think racism runs through ever Muslim blood, there all the same but they just don't know it, yeah maybe a few things are different like culture and etc ... but down deep there all the same. They seem to all hate each other!!!!!!!!!
So if your Pakistani....... Allah Hafiz
if your Persian...............Khuda Hafiz
if your Arab...................Ma'salam
if your a Turk.................Allaha ismarladik
*if your a MUSLIM.......... Wa Salam *
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hey i dont agree with the generalization about arabs etc. but shes right about people think if girls dont get married at a certain age that they will be considered as burdens on their parents, thats just wrong and its about time that people change their attitude towards marriage and think of it as a sacred bond rather than a burden or something that has to be done,
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*Originally posted by BoSS: *
I see a lot of guppies taking cheap shots at it
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Good topic BoSS... from first hand experience, I can say ISNA isn't only a hooking point for young and single people, though even if some couples do find each other thru ISNA or other such religious events, I think there is absolutaly nothing wrong with this! ISNA matrimonial service is well organised by an eldery pakistani couple, fortunately whom I happened to meet and chat with, mashallah they are very down to earth and nice natured people and they are doing some good stuff, without any personal profit, I guess. Their aim is to bring couples togther in an islamic way, those who have been brought up in the west, and have no other way of meeting and socialising, that's why their approach is not typical traditional but more openminded and controversial for many desi people but more and more are learning to accept this and willing to go through this process. I am generally against online matrimonial services, but if I ever had to advice someone for such, ISNA Matrimonials is the only service I would ever recommend.
Funny, when we are looking for a job we go for interview to many different companies and then hope we would get a good offer and choose the one that suits us the most, why can't marriage be seen as like this, a contract btw two people who are willing to make a company (their home) to work as best as they can.
ISNA organised a dinner for matchmaking for singles. Though many people particpated, but I think not many matches were made, as it takes more than one evening to break the ice, never the less it was an interesting experiment to adventure thru... I think we need many such events, where singles can meet under guidance and islamic values.
when my kid asks me "abba aap aur ammi pehli baar kahaan milay" i'd like to say an ISNA conference more than DV8 nightclub.