In Islam we are supposed to keep Islamic ruling as most supreme and our allegiance to Allah(swt) is the most sacred one, only then come bonds of family.
This is one thing that has always been grey in my mind as in I am ignorant about this issue. I am not completely sure about the exact Islamic rules on this and the defined limits in different situations.
I just finished watching the movie the message. In the message there was a scene where one of the Prophet(SAW)'s companions Hz Waleed (RA) was in the Muslim army in Badr (I hope I am remembering this correctly, plz correct me if I am wrong) and his father was in the other army. And during the battle his father got killed.
I don’t know, but that part really struck me as for some reason it doesn’t 100% go with my understanding of Islam that I have always had.
It was a scary thought subhanallah.
I remember that Hazrat Umer(ra) or Hazrat Usman(ra) (please excuse my ignorance I am not sure which one of them) ordered for their son to be punished for a theft and his hands to be cut. However will this be counted as Sunnah since it was one of his(SAW)'s companions not his(SAW)'s own life?
Islam is the most merciful religion and the most just religion, so I am sure the solution for this issue that Islam prescribes is ofcourse the most just. However, I am unaware of where Islam draws the line in such cases where family is concerned and what exactly are the Islamic rulings on this.
To what extent do we uphold the deen over family, I mean ofcourse deen is before family but are there any allowances in this regard? What exactly are the defined borders and how much does one listen to the heart in such cases? Are there specific Surah’s in the Holy Quran on this topic or specific passages? Allah(swt) has made Islam easy for us to follow and I know that following Allah’s orders in any situation cannot require man to have a cold heart or a cruel heart with no mercy or affection.
I just typed out my jumbled thoughts so I hope my post makes sense, and I was able to convey what I am asking inshallah…
I am not sure about the names myself that u mentioned… but I remember reading and listening it many times that after Bad’r, later on when the son of Hadrat Abu Bakar (RA) accepted Islam, he (RA) told Abu Bakar (RA) that in the battle of Bad’r many times Hadrat Abu Bakar (RA) became an easy target for him but he avoided… and Hadrat Abu Bakar (RA) replied that if it was a matter with him, he would not have any doubts in his heart…
and for:
However will this be counted as Sunnah since it was one of his(SAW)'s companions not his(SAW)'s own life?<<<
YES! it will… a hadeeth says:
“My companions are like stars. Whosoever among them will you follow, you will be guided.”
Infact, a famous event in the life of the prophet (SAW) does remind us about the same situation when a very influencial and powerful woman named Fatimah was punished for theft and a companion (RA) made a recommendation not to execute the punishment because she was one powerful person of society and the golden guided reply of the prophet (SAW) is still written on the forehead of the History:
Swear to ALLAH, if my own daughter Fatimah (RA) would have commited this mistake, I would have cut her hand too… One of the reasons that the nations before you were destroyed was that they used to have different laws for the powerfuls of the society and they tend to practice justice only among poors and the helpless.
Are there specific Surah’s in the Holy Quran on this topic or specific passages?<<<
the only ayah i can remember right now on this issue is the one that follows.. read it and know that when ALLAH is saying something in Quran, the miracle of the book is that it seems like ALLAH is talking to us individually exactly in response to our doubts directly pointing out the doubts of our mind… Subahan ALLAH, He surely has completed His guidance for us… May ALLAH give us tofeeq to read, understand, implement and spread the words of Quran to others.. Aameen:
O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well- acquainted with all that ye do. [An-Nisa (The Women) [4:135] ]
and now listen to the criteria being a family member in the sight of ALLAH mentioning that the people who do righteous deeds are one family and the evil doers are not part of the family in the eyes of ALLAH:
And Noah called upon his Lord, and said: “O my Lord! surely my son is of my family! and Thy promise is true, and Thou art the justest of Judges!”
He (Allah) said: “O Noah! He is not of thy family: For his conduct is unrighteous. So ask not of Me that of which thou hast no knowledge! I give thee counsel, lest thou act like the ignorant!” [Hud (The Prophet Hud) [11:45-46]]
ok...iyoho? God decrees..cutting off peoples hands? Well..in my senses, feelings, heart...
NO.
He doesn't.
Man does.
God Doesn't.
[/QUOTE]
a few points...
God is ultimately merciful. The same God that destroys entire
townships when they disobey HIM and deny his Prophets(the people of Noah, Lot etc).
The life of the eternal is the real life and this life is just a test. Would it not be a mercy then that one lost their hand than suffered unimaginable torment in the fire of hell. The cutting of the hand only exists for theft other than food or the purpose of food.
Punishments for fornication, robbery, murder etc. are actually
means to prevent the wrath of God upon all mankind.
More than anything else, these apparently harsh punishments keep
people from committing crimes. People that fear God wouldn't do such things anyway, but for those who don't, these measures exist.
God's attributes have to be understood comprehensively. He is the
most merciful and the absolutely fair AT THE SAME TIME. This is beyond
human comprehension. We simply accept what he has ordained and he opens up the doors of wisdom upon whoever HE wills so they can understand. God doesn't have to fit our notions of Him, rather we have to submit to the ultimate reality that He is. What you think is mercy may not be mercy in reality at all... Only God knows, and so He dictates justice...out of mercy.
I leave you with this analogy...a child won't like medicine because it
tastes bad, but what he doesn't realize is that the mother is forcing him to take it out of love. It is better for him, if he only trusted.
[11:46] He said: O Nuh! surely he is (innahu) not of your family; innahu amalun ghairu salihin, therefore ask not of Me that of which you have no knowledge; surely I admonish you lest you may be of the ignorant
PakistaniAbroad: To translate the part in green italics as: "for his conduct is unrighteous" is far removed from the original text.
Allah is admonishing Nuh that his son is NOT his family, and also Allah doesn't want Nuh asking about things of which he has no knowledge.
We would like to dig deeper to understand this.
There has been another prophet whose followers were promised protection except...
[29:31] And when Our messengers came to Ibrahim with the good news, they said: Surely we are going to destroy the people of this town, for its people are unjust.
[29:32] He said: Surely in it is Lut. They said: We know well who is in it; we shall certainly deliver him and his followers, except his wife; she shall be of those who remain behind.
[29:33] And when Our messengers came to Lut he was grieved on account of them, and he felt powerless (to protect) them; and they said: Fear not, nor grieve; surely we will deliver you and your followers, except your wife; she shall be of those who remain behind.
[29:34] Surely We will cause to come down upon the people of this town a punishment from heaven, because they transgressed.
PakistaniAbroad: Now we know Lut's wife, although the wife of a prophet was a transgressor.
Let's find out who else was in the same company as hers.
[66:10] Allah sets forth an example to those who disbelieve the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut: they were both under two of Our righteous servants, but they acted treacherously towards them so they availed them naught against Allah, and it was said: Enter both the fire with those who enter.
PakistaniAbroad: So Nuh's wife was also a transgressor! And she acted "treacherously towards Nuh".
This now makes the understanding of 11:46 much easier:
innahu amalun ghairu salihin = that he is surely deed other than righteous.
Now we do understand that Nuh's son was not his own but from an other than righteous act therefore Allah's promise didn't cover him. This is the fact that Nuh didn't know and Allah didn't want to embarrass Nuh with the disclosure.
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
011.046
YUSUFALI: He said: “O Noah! He is not of thy family: For his conduct is unrighteous. So ask not of Me that of which thou hast no knowledge! I give thee counsel, lest thou act like the ignorant!”
This was a request for information and an inquiry from Nuh concerning the cirumstances of his son’s drowning.
(and said, "O my Lord! Verily, my son is of my family!‘’) This means, "Verily, You promised to save my family and Your promise is the truth that does not fail. Therefore, how can he (my son) be drowned and You are the Most Just of the judges’’
(He (Allah) said: "O Nuh! Surely, he is not of your family…‘’) This means, "He (your son) is not of those whom I promised to save. I only promised you that I would save those of your family who believe.‘’ For this reason Allah said,
l(and your family except him against whom the Word has already gone forth.) [11:40] Thus, for his son, it had already been decreed that he would be drowned due to his disbelief and his opposition to his father, the Prophet of Allah, Nuh peace be upon him. Concerning Allah’s statement,
(Surely, he is not of your family) meaning that he (Nuh’s son) was not among those whom Allah promised to save. Abdur-Razzaq recorded that Ibn Abbas said, "He was the son of Nuh, but he opposed him in deeds and intention.‘’ `Ikrimah said in some of the modes of recitation it said here, (Åöäøóåõ Úóãöáó ÚóãóáðÇ ÛóíúÑó ÕóÇáöÍò) "Verily, he (Nuh’s son) worked deeds that were not righteous.‘’
Lets look into 66:10, Allah the exalted said,
(Allah sets forth an example for those who disbelieve) meaning, the disbelievers who live together in this life with Muslims, their mixing and mingling with Muslims will not help the disbelievers, nor will it avail them with Allah, until and unless they gain faith in their hearts. Then Allah mentioned the parable, saying,
(the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut. They were under two of our righteous servants,) means, they were the wives of two of Allah’s Messengers and were their companions by day and night, eating with them and sleeping with them, as much as any marriage contains of interaction between spouses. However,
(they both betrayed them.) meaning, in the faith, they did not adhere to the faith sent through their husbands nor accepted their message. Therefore, all the intimate knowledge of their husbands neither helped them nor prevented punishment, hence Allah’s statement,
(So, they availed them not against Allah) means, because their wives were disbelievers,
(and it was said) meaning, to these wives,
(Enter the Fire along with those who enter!) The part of the Ayah that reads,
(but they both betrayed them) does not pertain to committing illegal sexual intercourse, but to refusing to accept the religion. Surely, the wives of the Prophets were immune from committing illegal sexual intercourse on account of the honor that Allah has granted His Prophets, as we explained in Surat An-Nur. Al-Awfi reported from Ibn Abbas, "They betrayed them by not following their religion. The wife of Prophet Nuh used to expose his secrets, informing his oppressive people whenever any person embraced the faith with Nuh. As for the wife of Prophet Lut, she used to inform the people of the city (Sodom), who committed the awful sexual act (sodomy), whenever a guest was entertained by her husband.‘’ Ad-Dahhak reported that Ibn Abbas said, **"No wife of a Prophet ever committed adultery and fornication. Rather, they betrayed them by refusing to follow their religion.''** Similar was said by Ikrimah, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Ad-Dahhak and others.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
Different,
innahu amalun ghairu salihin is NOT 'for his conduct is unrighteous' by any stretch of imagination.
I already know the 'established' position, but it wouldn't hurt to investigate the truth yourself.
[/QUOTE]
Here is the translation of the verse 66:9 and 66:10, so that it is clear to everyone that when Allah mentions the wives of Lut and Noah in verse 66:10 He is referring to their being Unbelievers or Hypocrites, and it has nothing to do with them being referred to as indecent as you want everyone to believe.
In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
066.009
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge (indeed).
066.010
YUSUFALI: Allah sets forth, for an example to the Unbelievers, the wife of Noah and the wife of Lut: they were (respectively) under two of our righteous servants, but they were false to their (husbands), and they profited nothing before Allah on their account, but were told: "Enter ye the Fire along with (others) that enter!"
In 66:10 fakhanatahuma = "so they(female/both) betrayed them (male/both) ...... or .... "so they(f/b) were unfaithful to them(m/b)".
It's to their husbands, not Allah. How else is a wife supposed to "betray" their husband or be "unfaithful" to them??
I'd also like to hear your comments on the correct translation of the part of 11:46 where Allah informs Nuh that "his son is surely deed other than righteous".
Also of benefit would be the factual basis of the statement that "the wives of the Prophets were immune from committing illegal sexual intercourse".
*Now we do understand that Nuh's son was not his own but from an other than righteous act therefore Allah's promise didn't cover him. This is the fact that Nuh didn't know and Allah didn't want to embarrass Nuh with the disclosure. *
surely Allah Knows Best.
And asking? what was Nuh's punishment? Because clearly all blame was placed on the wife. Or the question/statement is...Nuh's wife was cheating on him, or was he cheating oh her?
.
Explain. Nuh clearly broke one of Gods most important commandments. As..his wife is accused of doing. ...
What happend to Nuh? What happend to Nuh's wife? Good story. Waiting for a good answer.
In the meantime ponder, and think about answering the above Q.
God said "Quote."
I am Jehovah your God who liberated you from your slavery in Egypt.
You may worship no other God than me.
You shall not make yourselves any idols; any images resembling animals, birds, or fish. "..." for I your God am very possessive. I will not share your affection with any other God!" And when I punish people for their sins, the punishment continues upon the children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren of those who hate me; but I lavish my love upon thousands of those who love me and obey my commandments.
You shall not use the name of Jehovah your God irreverently, nor use it to swear to a falsehood. You will not escape punishment if you do.
Remember to observe the Sabbath as a Holy Day. Six days a week are for your daily duties and your regular work, but the seventh day is a day of Sabbath rest before the Lord your God. On that day you are to do no work of any kind, nor shall your son, daughter, or slaves- whether men or women- or your cattle-or your house guests.
Honor your father and mother, that you may have a long good life in the land the Lord your God will give you.
Quran 2:124 And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands which he fulfilled; He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the nations." He pleaded: "And also Imams from my offspring?" He answered: "But my promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."
Ibrahim(pbuh) was made the leader of mankind cuz of his rightousness and when Allah gave him this news, he asked Allah to extend the reward to his offsprings....
the request was accepted and we know Ibrahim(pbuh) is called ab-ul-anbiyaa (father of prophets)....
but the important thing to see here is the answer of Allah "But my promise is not within the reach of evil-doers"....
and this is how Allah dealth with Nuh(pbuh) and his son....
he did not extend the promise to the wrong-doer (i.e. Nuh's son)....
ahl does not necessarily mean family....
it can also mean people....
lets see an example of this.... Quran 74:56 huwa ahl-al-taqwa wa ahl-al-magfirah
the verse describes Allah....
it has been translated as:
He is the Lord of fear and Lord of Mercy (Yusuf Ali)....
He is the fount of fear and fount of mercy (Pickthall)....
He is worthy to be feared and worthy to forgive (Shakir)....
hence Allah saying to Nuh(pbuh) that he (his son) is not of his people does not mean that he is not his own progeny, but that he is not amongst those who follow him in faith....
and another interesting comparison is between the wives of Nuh(pbuh) and Lut(pbuh)....
they both betrayed their husbands....
now we all know that when the people of Lut(pbuh) came to him asking him to hand over the young men (i.e. the angels), he offered them to take his daughters instead....
but they refused, because the people of Lut(pbuh) had turned to homosexuality and did not want women....
so if no one wanted Lut's daughters, definitely no one wud be interested in his aged wife....
hence betrayal does not come to sexual relations, its just in belief....
and PA, please try to learn arabic before u make stupid meanings out of the verses of the Holy Quran....
armughal maybe you should point out the problems u have with the translations of the verses under discussion rather then make stupid comments yourself.
There are few scenarios where one has to decide between family and Islam because practicing Islam is conducive to upholding, maintaining, starting and protecting the fabric of society, the family. Not many muslims are aware that the word "Islam" means to "Submit", ie to the way and order of Allah. This is what makes it different from other religions in that the sole purpose of the muslim is to withold and carry out the commands of Allah swt on this earth. That is, to obey Him in every respect, and we have been given guidance to do this. We are greatly tested, as was the Prophet Abraham (Ah) when an order from Allah clashes with our innate and instinctive love for our family. The right decision is clearly apparent but it is a great test indeed.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by irem: *
ASAK,
In Islam we are supposed to keep Islamic ruling as most supreme and our allegiance to Allah(swt) is the most sacred one, only then come bonds of family.
This is one thing that has always been grey in my mind as in I am ignorant about this issue. I am not completely sure about the exact Islamic rules on this and the defined limits in different situations.
I just finished watching the movie the message. In the message there was a scene where one of the Prophet(SAW)'s companions Hz Waleed (RA) was in the Muslim army in Badr (I hope I am remembering this correctly, plz correct me if I am wrong) and his father was in the other army. And during the battle his father got killed.
I don't know, but that part really struck me as for some reason it doesn't 100% go with my understanding of Islam that I have always had.
It was a scary thought subhanallah.
I remember that Hazrat Umer(ra) or Hazrat Usman(ra) (please excuse my ignorance I am not sure which one of them) ordered for their son to be punished for a theft and his hands to be cut. However will this be counted as Sunnah since it was one of his(SAW)'s companions not his(SAW)'s own life?
Islam is the most merciful religion and the most just religion, so I am sure the solution for this issue that Islam prescribes is ofcourse the most just. However, I am unaware of where Islam draws the line in such cases where family is concerned and what exactly are the Islamic rulings on this.
To what extent do we uphold the deen over family, I mean ofcourse deen is before family but are there any allowances in this regard? What exactly are the defined borders and how much does one listen to the heart in such cases? Are there specific Surah's in the Holy Quran on this topic or specific passages? Allah(swt) has made Islam easy for us to follow and I know that following Allah's orders in any situation cannot require man to have a cold heart or a cruel heart with no mercy or affection.
I just typed out my jumbled thoughts so I hope my post makes sense, and I was able to convey what I am asking inshallah...
[QUOTE] Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
In 66:10 *fakhanatahuma** = "so they(female/both) betrayed them (male/both) ...... or .... "so they(f/b) were unfaithful to them(m/b)".
It's to their husbands, not Allah. How else is a wife supposed to "betray" their husband or be "unfaithful" to them??
[/QUOTE]
Their husbands were Prophets, and since they (the wives) betrayed their husbands who were Prophets, that means that they betrayed Allah also. Now looking at verse 66:9 and 66:10, its clear that Allah is referring to the unbelievers and the hypocrites yet you want everyone to believe in something which "is far removed from the original text."
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
I'd also like to hear your comments on the correct translation of the part of 11:46 where Allah informs Nuh that "his son is surely deed other than righteous".
Also of benefit would be the factual basis of the statement that "the wives of the Prophets were immune from committing illegal sexual intercourse".
[/QUOTE]
*In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
011.040
YUSUFALI: At length, behold! there came Our command, and the fountains of the earth gushed forth! We said: "Embark therein, of each kind two, male and female, and your family - except those against whom the word has already gone forth,- and the Believers." *
In verse 11:40, Allah mentions "except those against whom the word has already gone forth" right after stating Nuh's family and before mentioning the Believers this clearly indicates that Allah is specifically addressing Nuh's family, "Embark therein, of each kind two, male and female, and your family - except those against whom the word has already gone forth,- and the Believers."
Allah mentions "the Believers" after addressing Nuh's family, this also indicates that Nuh's family can also include unbelievers and it is not necessary that all members of Nuh's family were Believers, if it were so, Allah would not have mentioned Nuh's family at all.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
Now we do understand that Nuh's son was not his own but from an other than righteous act therefore Allah's promise didn't cover him. This is the fact that Nuh didn't know and Allah didn't want to embarrass Nuh with the disclosure.
[/QUOTE]
*In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
011.044
YUSUFALI: Then the word went forth: "O earth! swallow up thy water, and O sky! Withhold (thy rain)!" and the water abated, and the matter was ended. The Ark rested on Mount Judi, and the word went forth: "Away with those who do wrong!"*
Lets look closely at the verse where it states "Away with those who do wrong!" Now you want us to believe that Nuh's son was not his own but from an other than righteous act therefore Allah's promise didn't cover him. Its clearly stated in this verse that "Away with those who do wrong", now please explain what wrong did Nuh's son do? because of which Allah's promise did not cover him? According to you Nuh's wife was the one who did an unrighteous act, but what is Nuh's son being punished for?
When Nuh called upon Allah in verse 011.045
*In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.
YUSUFALI: And Noah called upon his Lord, and said: "O my Lord! surely my son is of my family! and Thy promise is true, and Thou art the justest of Judges!" *
Nuh doesn't mention his wife, he only mentions his son therefore, what you are saying doesn't make any sense, since Allah wanted to punish those who were wrong (verse 11:44) but according to what you are saying Allah is punishing an innocent man for an unrighteous act committed by someone else who is not being punished at that time. We believe that Allah is The All Just, whereas you are clearly stating otherwise since according to you the only reason for Nuh's son not being covered by Allah's promise is because "his son is surely deed other than righteous".
Nuh's wife was an Unbeliever and she will be punished in Hell Fire for what she did, Nuh's son did other unrighteous acts for which he was not covered under Allah's promise.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
armughal maybe you should point out the problems u have with the translations of the verses under discussion rather then make stupid comments yourself.
[/QUOTE]
if u read more carefully what i wrote u'd realize that i was commenting on how you have the wrong meaning....
or is "trying to understand" too big a task for u????
“My companions are like stars. Whosoever among them will you follow, you will be guided.”
this is a very difficult test from Allah (swt)…