Islamic System or Implementation of Muslim Personal Code

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Islamic System or Implementation of Muslim Personal Code

How so? Free speech was coined under the presumption that people had something of value to say. That's not always true; the value of free speech is only worth as much as the speech it fosters. There's a far stretch between heroically espousing a heliocentric worldview, and having a mocking depiction of Jesus duken' it out with Santa. In any case, mention of free speech and morality in the same breath is a bit far fetched.

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Re: Islamic System or Implementation of Muslim Personal Code

Evelyn Beatrice Hall on Voltaire...?

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Re: Islamic System or Implementation of Muslim Personal Code

Words entail responsibilities. Those who utter them are responsible for them and the audience if turning a blind eye to what they say is irresponsible to them. Immoral is what is viewed by people as unacceptable to them or against the values they live by. A shift in values could lead to morales plumeting and vice versa. With the long list of stipulations you added to your perimeters of free speech I cannot see where the freedom is, you arrested your own case.

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Good thread and good points! Ico.

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So what is your solution. Who is exactly going to judge what the people are saying is beyond acceptable boundaries. Oh ya you would have Taliban like militia roaming around to ensure that people dont overtalk. What a fine system...

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Re: Islamic System or Implementation of Muslim Personal Code

Is the talk value add or not. Is it meant to pursue positive outcomes. As I said words entail responsibilities and bare consequences. If someone goes in a muslim majority crowd and disses their Prophet SAW, you can predict the outcome. This would be the misuse of free speech and it would add no value at all but infact endanger the person himself. You hold people accountable for what they profess. The Taliban acted contrary to what they professed i.e. Islam, so they are not exemplary in anyway.

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Re: Islamic System or Implementation of Muslim Personal Code

Peace All

As far as I understand:

1) Shari'ah is about the conformance of Qur'an and Sunnah on a collective scale
2) This means that people need to be in place to encourage good and forbid evil. Good and Evil are as defined in the Qur'an and Sunnah.
3) A Caliphate is the most widely accepted mode of delivering the Shari'ah
4) Leaders are not to campaign for themselves, they are to be appointed ... because he who least wants leadership from fear of it's responsibility is the best for leading.
5) Freedom of speech is not an Islamic injunction ... there is freedom to voice ones concerns and to be heard, but there is no freedom of speech as such because it could lead to fitnah, which is against Shar'iah.
6) Scientific research is undertaken to benefit mankind without harming life, the environment, or our future wellbeing. This is a lot more ethical based decision-making required in Shar'iah.
7) Mass populous voting is not Islamic, the vast majority of people vote for futile reasons.
8) The money system in Islam must be void of interest ... The correct Islamic system ... dare I say it ... will involve being completely abstract from the World Bank and IMF. To develop an economy that does not subdue burdens on neighbouring nations.
9) The Islamic holidays need to be established correctly.
10) The teaching groups will be the elite ... i.e. wealth will not be a measure of rank.

It is inherently impossible for capitalistic states to implement Shar'iah ... capitalism promotes competition for dunya and secularism is void of absolutes in morals and ethics. A combination of secularism and capitalism ensures that the morals and ethics migrate to the values of the the capitalists ... which is exploitation and preservation of self and servitude from others.

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Re: Islamic System or Implementation of Muslim Personal Code

:salam:

Well articulated statement.

Saying capitalism promotes competition for dunya is a blanket statement though Akhi. I think it has its advantages as well and we should not start benigning the word without understanding its proper implications in all aspects. Capitalist societies coupled with strong charity does offset the effects of gathering wealth. In many capitalist societies the balancing act is missing which makes it appear bad. And Islam does not in no way prohibit a system in which wealth grows and trade expands, though with the added wealth comes added responsibility to use it for the alleviation of society and we should not curtail or forget our religious obligations while engaged in trade. What matters is which extreme we pursue and for what we use it. With growing populations wealth needs to be grown as well to support the population with its needs, that growth comes mainly from capitalists forms of trade.

I would agree that secularism coupled with democracy is void of absolutes in morals and ethics. Islam does require just and philanthropic policies towards pluralistic societies under the rule of muslims. Unfortunately, muslim states have done considerable damage to this aspect of Islam which is why in comparison many muslims see secularism as the better system today. It is not because secularism is better but because the choices available today in the world among muslim states are worse and distanced from what they ought to be.

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Re: Islamic System or Implementation of Muslim Personal Code

Peace USResident

Wa’alaikumsalaam

Loathe do I say it, but the Muslim condition is more important to concentrate on than the Islamic state. You are right!

I have made a statement in the past about Shari’ah … that it is …

Capitalistic without the exploits of capitalism
Socialistic without the constraints of socialism
Democratic without the immorality of democracy
Dictatorial without the tyrrany of dictatorship
Autocratic without the observable autocrat

In other words I understand when you chastise me about the sweeping statement, but for me capitalism is different to being capitalistic. I think we are saying the same thing.

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Re: Islamic System or Implementation of Muslim Personal Code

Sorry to say but this is all hyperbole.

At any given time, you look around and find the best system "in practice", and then try to implement it with full sincerity.

Islamists on the other hand are bunch of talking heads, trying to find problems with every system out there. The result is they never get any system and end up spreading anarchy.

Here is a simpler example. You are hungry, you don't know how to cook, so you go to a restaurant, and you are given a menu.

It will be counterproductive that you start telling the waitress that every dish on the menu is bad.

Obviously the restaurant owner will throw you out, and you will go hungry and eventually die.

The same thing is true with most of the Muslim countries. They want some mythical Shariah system that is different from every existing system at present. The result is that Muslim countries end up with "No system" at all.

Pragmatic nations on the other hand, simply follow the leader. Right now the leader is the USA. So every successful country in the world is admiring, and thus following USA systems while actively (in some cases slowly) moving away from their own.

BTW USA systems became successful because they themselves are continuously evolving.

Islamists on the other hand are stuck in 1000 years old talk, with zero "positive and constructive" action. The only actions coming from Islamists are destructive and suicidal.

So sad!

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Re: Islamic System or Implementation of Muslim Personal Code

Sorry didn't mean to appear rude. But I think we do agree on the essence of the discussion.

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You may be commenting on the idealistic statements of Br. Psyah but your post also sums up the bad state of muslims today. What could be done is that an existing system is taken and reformed with an Islamic touch instead of just rejecting it outright. This is what I said when responding to Br. Psyahs comment about capitalism, we should not benign the word holistically but rather take from it what is good and reform what is not in agreement with Islamic principles. And here lies the other problem, to do that you first need people who understand it to begin with. When we outright reject it we don't even get that far where we can reform it to our advantage.

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Re: Islamic System or Implementation of Muslim Personal Code

There is an old saying:

Na no mun tail ho ga, na radha nachay gee [trans: till the cows come home, or the phat lady sings, etc, etc,].

You can certainly modify the system. but you can never
modify something according to Islamic principles.

As you said "to do that you need people who understand it to begin with".

These days, the more Islamic you become, the less you understand the world. Unfortunately!

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^So you're suggesting that we need to become anti Islam or Islamic in order to understand the world?

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You don't have to be anti-Islam. Just be anti-Jahaliyah that is being spread by so many so-called scholars.

As long as you are sincere in your quest to quench your thirst of knowledge, you would understand the world (hopefully someday).

And knowledge is coming from books written by authors who do not have "Al" as their first name. And most of those books are written in English (and not in Arabic). Moreover these books are written in the last decade, and not some 600 years ago.

p.s. That reference to "Al" is the joke. I guess you have to see the phone directory in an Arab country to realize that almost every one has "Al" as their first name.

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Peace antiobl

Spoken with magnanamus authority. You have provided nothing but blame and name calling and then you expect us to follow your idea of "knowledge" ... where is the hook? ... this fish can't see it!

Regarding your staunch stance of the best system i.e. Shari'ah ... and naming the supporters of this "Islamists" undermines the Muslims and the faith they follow. Every Muslim should promote Islam and it's injunctions.

The funny thing is I have said this before on this forum but people who take such hardline approach as yourself never see it. To you I appear to be somewhat radical and backward, but when I talk to those hardliners who call Muslims Kafir for not supporting Shar'iah they look at me and call me an apologetic, or liberal or Sufi. If you come this way slightly and they come this way slighty from their position what is wrong with that?

Yes the Muslim world in this day and age is corrupt and less Islamic than the Western democracies, that doesn't mean the democracies are the system to be satisfied with. We have a third option one that you seem to tote as "mythical" it is a system that is not a hyperbole it is a workable system that can provide utter balance and optimise the life of humanity in this world. It is called Shar'iah and this does not mean taking swords and forcing people to become Muslim nor does it mean Harems nor does it mean throwing away technology for the cart and waggon. These are misconceptions that you have acquired from your sources of "knowledge" or is it merely a bias? You choose!

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Re: Islamic System or Implementation of Muslim Personal Code

Being Islamic means being anti Jahliyah, because Islamically its an obligation upon every muslim men and women to gain knowledge.

by so-called scholars? Yes, may be. But its our duty to always confirm what we hear from the scholars and the so called scholars as Imam Abu Hanifah(ra)(the great scholar) said "whoever follows someone blindly is a fanatic" the Qadi added "or a foolish".

Yes I believe if you want true guidance and knowledge than Allah guides you and gives you the right understanding through different ways.

The books written 600 years ago or 1200 years ago in Arabic by the great scholars and philosophers are indeed precious and remarkable, the laters based their work on them, so that'd be foolish if we ignore and eradicate that great work of scholars and philosophers only because we think its old and outdated.

It will be helpful for me to understand your point completely if you can provide some names of books and scholars you're suggesting above.

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Re: Islamic System or Implementation of Muslim Personal Code

cool discussion guys :k:

Member/Team of the month - April Registrations!
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Re: Islamic System or Implementation of Muslim Personal Code

I agree with antiobl in some points. For example, where I work now, we have SO MANY muslims, but we never do any activities together, because when we do try to organize something, we end up arguing over whether or not to keep the men and women segregated, and what kind of "fun" activity muslims can do as a group. Meanwhile, these same gadha guys are going out with white or Indian female coworkers!!!!!

We could do so much work and activities and projects, but we don't because everyone is stubborn and no one wants to do anything progressive. In fact, I've been trying to convince the president of getting people to fundraise or volunteer at a local clinic some muslims have opened up, and he didn't want to, because "the clinic was far from his home".

????

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Re: Islamic System or Implementation of Muslim Personal Code

And why do Muslims utterly fail to meet this obligation?

Remember we are talking about "practice" of Muslims, and not some "theoretical" (read mythical) Muslim.

Muslims countries endowed with enormous human capital (Pakistan, BDesh, Indonesia) or the Muslim countries blessed with enormous natural resources all have miserably and utterly failed to be "anti Jahliyah".

Why you may ask? they simply don't want to gain knowledge, as they have become "summun bukmun".

And yet instead of waking them up against the Orthodoxy [read Jahliyya], our Islamists push them further into the depths of ignorance.

So key words here are "Practice" vs. "theory", OR
"reality" vs. "platitude".
"Action" vs. "Talk and talk and talk and talk".

Madamouiselle! Learn the latest (modern, contemporary) and decorate your drawing room with the oldest aka antique, dada jaan kay zamaanay kay burton!

The answer depends on the area where you want to be learned (kind of Un-Jahil).

With peace and love for all.

Just Urdu!