Re: Islamic state and tolerance...
^ If memory serves me right, that particular verse was in regards to the offer that was made by the kuffar to Prophet Muhammad (SAW). They wanted Muslims to follow their religion on alternate days (or once in a week or something along those lines) and in return they would follow Islam on selected days.
I hope someone can clarify it. I'll try to look up tafsir as well, insha'Allah.
Re: Islamic state and tolerance...
Oh so it only applies to that situation but not in general to people who won't accept Islam.
Re: Islamic state and tolerance...
Well, I've looked it up in my translation and the translation is: 'To you be your Way, And to me mine.'
The explanation: "I having been given the Truth, cannot come to your false ways: you, having your vested interests, will not give them up. For your ways the responsibility is yours: I have shown you the Truth. Your persecutions will be vain: the Truth must prevail in the end. This was the attitude of Faith then: But is true for all time. Hold fast to Truth, "in scorn of consequence".
It just says that the responsibility after hearing about the True message is with that person and not with the Prophet who has performed the duty of showing the Truth.
It 'doesn't say something like 'we have to destroy you now because you won't accept Islam, but want us to mix Islam with your religion'.
This situation is just like today in the western world. We are asked to 'change' Islam to the taste of the non-muslims in whose countries we're living.
I think we should leave it to Allah after having told them the truth and only fight them if they attack us.
Also if we were supposed to fight and force Islam upon the non-Muslims and if we weren't allowed at all to live alongside them, why do we have aya's with rules on how to deal with living either in a non-Islamic country or living side by side non-Muslims in an Islamic country?
Re: Islamic state and tolerance...
Sadya...
Theres a difference between accepting Islam as your creed and there is a difference in accepting it as your ruling system...
There are other verses such as'no compulsion is Deen'...sorry i dont know the reference...which makes it clear that Muslims cannot forcefully convert non Muslims...
But the argument is not that they accept Islam forcefully...it is that Allah has the best system for mankind and we are obliged to implement it...and that Muslims and non Muslims should live under the justice of Islam...
Many non Muslims lived under the Islamic state and payed the jizyah...so no-one is saying to non Muslim to become Muslim through force...insh'allah they do it becuase they see the justice of the Islamic system implemented in their lands...
Force is something we have always used when someone doesnt accept our system...jihad is fought to spread the Deen of Islam by force...
Re: Islamic state and tolerance...
Rashguy...
Sorry for the late reply...iv been enjoying Freshers week ;)...
Islam itself has the answers to all of humans needs and all ills in society...that is becuase it is a COMPLETE Deen and Allah states that it has all the answers...
Now i agree with you that scholarly intervention is required and that can make or break a state...the Turks at one point banned Arabic so naturally their levels of ijtehad and deduction became a lot worse...
Every state has flaws because you are relying on human beings...there is a lot of difference of opinion (ikhtilaaf)...but that isnt always a bad thing...this leads to scholarly debate and can sometimes leads to changes in rules for the better...
But i agree with you that any state is flawed but that isnt becuase of Islam itself...its becuase of Human mistakes in deduction and implementation...
However that doesnt take us away from the fact that Allahs system is the best for mankind and should be implemented...
As to how well it is implemented...Insh'allah we'll have scholars equipped to do the job...
Re: Islamic state and tolerance...
//However that doesnt take us away from the fact that Allahs system is the best for mankind and should be implemented...//
To just make a statement that Allah's statement is the best for the mankind is not very convincing. The closest we came to see a live islamic state was during the Taliban regime. To convince peoples that the Islamic form of govt is the best, it is imperative that the muslim scholars come out with a "white paper" on what was wrong with the taliban and how the Islamic form of govt would be different. Unless and until that occurs, khilafa would just be a dream and nothing more than that...
Re: Islamic state and tolerance…
Islam is not changed by the place where you live, if you change islam in that place by law of that land i.e by force than you leave that place because islam is here to change situation not for situation to change islam.
Re: Islamic state and tolerance...
Yes, that's what I mean. Well, maybe I got it all wrong, but isn't that situation to which that surah is pointing a bit similar to what is going on between Muslims and non-muslims here in the western countries today?
Here they want us to be 'modern' (what exactly is modern???? always annoying when they tell you to become 'modern'), like the banning of headscarves in many places for example.
Just like they were trying to make a deal with Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) about worshipping idols.
He didn't kill them instantly. He kept spreading the message of Islam and only fought when the life of the Muslims was in danger and there was no other solution.
Re: Islamic state and tolerance…
Islam has all the answers is a figure of speech truth. Reality is that Islam is not providing ALL the answers. Something as mundane as a lunar calendar becomes a laughing stock in every Ramzan. How many eids are you going to have this year?
“you say we’ll have scholars equipped to do the job”. Baboo! put your money where your mouth is. Where are those scholars who are equipped to do the job. So far these scholars are equipped with only one thing. suicide bombs. Look what happened in bali today.
Re: Islamic state and tolerance…
If they ask you to be modern just question them what do they mean, usually they don’t even know what they are asking themselves and are just using tired overused soundbites which they heard from the western media. Then finally when they have decided to come out with something that resembles a sentance or statement than to them you say you have your way of life and we have ours.
Re: Islamic state and tolerance...
^^ modern mean avoiding terrorism and suicide bombings. Modern mean getting up from the heap of sand and acquiring the knowledge of universe. Modern means getting your tribal economy to a vibrant global exchange of goods and services. Banks, corporations, big name schools, hospitals every aspect will make you modern.
Oh well, it may not matter to the beardos used to hujra baazi. They may never understand what modern means, forever stuck behind a woman's hijab.
Re: Islamic state and tolerance…
Hey, hijabi’s are everywhere in every field.
Just one example. On Discovery Channel they regularly air documentaries on the researchers of tombes of pharaos and mummies. On two of them there were hijabans who are professors and help with the research of mummies.
They aired a documentary some years ago, I forgot which channel, but they showed the system of both Mekka and Medina, air conditioning, the tiles outside Masjid_e_Nabwi, which are cool in the heat of the sun for the people who don’t fit in the mosque at prayer time and so have to pray outside in the sun, the cameras for security, water system etc. etc. I was surprised at the technology used.
Perhaps you should check out the proper history of what has been invented and researched adn found out by Muslims first:
http://www.muslimheritage.com/default.aspx
Every religion/race has it’s glorious adn less glorious moments in history.
Re: Islamic state and tolerance...
^^ no problem with Hijab, but making it the hot / burning issue is simply lame and bordering exploitation of women.
I am familiar with Muslim science. Unfortunately the thingy happened long time ago. Science means continuous improvement and challenge. We may go back 500 years for few laughs or fun stuff. Unfortunately you won't get a nobel prize for that non-serious stuff.
Re: Islamic state and tolerance...
It's not the Muslims who are making Hijab the hot/burning issue.
And don't worry about the Nobel prize. Like I said, every religion has a glorious time and then a less glorious one, only to come back on top. Nobody stays on top forever.
And didn't Arafat get a Nobel prize for peace once?
Re: Islamic state and tolerance…
arafat? ha.
We are discussing scientific achievements here. His was in politics not for writing a new thesis but simply agreeing with oslo accord. Sort of at-a-boy.
It is not the religion but regions or nations who achieve. Even in the glory days of Baghdad, modern day Saudi Arabia was simply a Bidduin land.
Agreed on rise and fall. Anything that goes up must come down. However who is next in line depends on a lot of hard work from those who aspire to be on top.
If Europeans lose their seat of power, you think Arabs are ready to take over the reigns? Forget it.
The next in line are the Chinese, Japanies, and Koreans.
So you may ask who is third in line, Still those are people like Bharatis.
Hence there is no hope for those who are dead last in the race. No chance nada!
Re: Islamic state and tolerance...
I never said Arabs would take over any reigns. (Allah help us if the Arabs with todays mentality take over!).
From a documentary some weeks ago I've learnt that probably China is the next big force. Even becoming a stronger one than Japan.
People who are dead last in the race, do catch up eventually.
Look at our watan, wether or not we all agree with the nuke bombs, who could have imagined in their wildest dreams that a country like ours would have one too?
Let's forget for a minute the dangers of it. That's an entirely different discussion.
In time, long after we're all dead, Islam will rise again insha Allah, if Qiyamat doesn't take place first. Empires rise and fall and rise again, the cycle always repeats.
Re: Islamic state and tolerance...
^ it won't be a long time at all it is around the corner that is why the amerikkan global terrorist network has its military in our countries to prevent the rise of the islamic state which will in turn destroy all of the western interests in matter of hours then the fun will begin.