Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.

Interesting point you selected about Mughals, Das Reich.
My take. Mughals were great, irrespective of their religion.

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Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.

and thus their embarassing downfall... and a legacy of Indo-Paks who proudly claim a 'mughal heritage'.

I based this argument on what I see around me, current events in the Middle East and the overflow of ideas and practises across the globe which perpetrates terrorism if I must be explicit. Zakk, why don't you elaborate further and put things into perspective.

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Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.

Like I said, it's not the question of anyone taking pride in Mughal legacy or wanting to take out their bodies from the graves, Mughals remain great.
The world agrees with it.

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Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.

Actually you see i have a little different view... Firstly we have to accept that media has a big role in forming our ideas.. i was just reading an articles yesterday night where they told that how the british ppl pushed american ppl in favor of WWII ... while at the start of the war avg american were extremely against the american participation in WWII. although perl harbour was one of the factor but there was lot more efforts by British secret services in which spread fake news about Germany's plan to attack america and divide in 5 regions and many more similarly totoally fake news with not even a hint of truth in it.

I personally believe, which i can be wrong totally, that our views are also not un biased.. unfortunately we trust these media news... how oppressive were talebans and how brutal they were, i certainly can't say as i said earlier also that i haven;t met them may be i would have a different view. but i will just say that because of their behaviour "Yvonne Ridley" accepted Islam... how many ppl have accept Islam because of my or your behaviour.?

i can tell you there are many more examples of brutality from American and European Secret agencies while none of us condemn them they way we do taleban's way... this doesn't justifiy any brutality if done by Taleban but why this double standards by us muslims too.? i am not surprised when the non-muslim show this double standards but i m really surprised when my own brother and sister show this double standard.. will we really be standing in the ummah of Prophet (SAW) on the day of judgement or Allah will put us in the non-muslim community on that day due to our alignment with them in this world.?

i read in some interview by the taleban commisioner in Pakistan in which he told that, that year which was turned out to be their last year in power, they punished only 8 ppl in entire area under their control... and we call this as brutality.?

being a computer scientist i have learned 1 thing the hard way i.e. to hear the requirements from all the people.. i expect you r more qualified then me, so i think its pretty safe to assume that you also believe that before making an opinion about some person/culture/society we either need to have our own self experience or from some very very authentic sources.. honestly speaking based on the Quranic teaching i wouldn;t accept the media reports about them... they can be as far from the truth as the world is from heavens. i just saw the headline yesterday on BBC that "Taliban Law" passed in Pakistan. and i can totally its totally misleading.. i have read that Hisba Bill a little and its extremely mild, rather to the disappointingly mild.. and it is passed in 1 province of Pakistan not in entire Pakistan.. but the person who will see it first time wot he will think...?

I also accept one thing that there were a few tough rules by them, but remember one thing Islam accepts total submission and nothing else... or atleast an honest effort for the total submission.

Lastly i think the ppl in cities who are taking classes and moving towards islam are much more strict then the villagers... because village ppl r more into wot they r taught by the peer faqeer which is not much close to islam... but the cities ppl when they turn toward islam they analyze it with their own brain before accepting... and when they accept something they r more rigid in following it... anyway this is based on my own observations and analysis and it can be wrong as well.

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Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.

Xcom_Cheetah nay farmaya

... how many ppl have accept Islam because of my or your behaviour.?

alhumdulillah two people. One is now deceased, may his soul rest in peace and the other one is a better muslim than I.

*i can tell you there are many more examples of brutality from American and European Secret agencies while none of us condemn them they way we do taleban's way... this doesn't justifiy any brutality if done by Taleban but why this double standards by us muslims too.? i am not surprised when the non-muslim show this double standards but i m really surprised when my own brother and sister show this double standard.. will we really be standing in the ummah of Prophet (SAW) on the day of judgement or Allah will put us in the non-muslim community on that day due to our alignment with them in this world.? *

The american and european secret agencies do not parade their actions as Islam. I am opposed to anyone doing the type of idiotic moronic actions that taleban were known for. I take it more personally when some two bit jahil mullah from some po dunk back water ****hole of a village claims some islamic relevance to his ignorant actions.

*i read in some interview by the taleban commisioner in Pakistan in which he told that, that year which was turned out to be their last year in power, they punished only 8 ppl in entire area under their control... and we call this as brutality.? *

right...eve if we were to believe his statement on punishment, the iron fist that they ruled with is inexcusable, their records on women and minority treatment is no secret, Only the Taleban apologists cant seem to read all that.

*being a computer scientist i have learned 1 thing the hard way i.e. to hear the requirements from all the people.. i expect you r more qualified then me, so i think its pretty safe to assume that you also believe that before making an opinion about some person/culture/society we either need to have our own self experience or from some very very authentic sources.. *

I personally knew aid workers on the ground who told me first hand the crap they saw in afghanistan, aside from that I know afghans who saw it first hand.

** i wouldn;t accept the media reports about them... they can be as far from the truth as the world is from heavens. **

u refered to 'brutality' by US ad european secret service agencies, did you have first had experience or are you relying on some type of media reports on that?

btw u just accepted some media reports aboout them when u said you read somewhere that their comissioner said that they only punished 8 ppl.

i just saw the headline yesterday on BBC that "Taliban Law" passed in Pakistan. and i can totally its totally misleading.. i have read that Hisba Bill a little and its extremely mild, rather to the disappointingly mild.. and it is passed in 1 province of Pakistan not in entire Pakistan.. but the person who will see it first time wot he will think...?

1) its perspective isn't it what may be mild for you may be worysome for others especially those from other cultures

2) news reports say the same when a law is passed in a particular state in US, outside of US they say, so and so law is passed in US. for US ppl internally it is more important to know its michigan and not iowa, but for on americans its enough ti kow it as passed in US, same for pakistan. the report thus did not lie, they did not go into details...

*I also accept one thing that there were a few tough rules by them, but remember one thing Islam accepts total submission and nothing else... or atleast an honest effort for the total submission. *

yes yes yes, submission to Allah's word, to which there is also no compulsion..
not submission to some rabid banner wavinf bafoons.

Lastly i think the ppl in cities who are taking classes and moving towards islam are much more strict then the villagers... because village ppl r more into wot they r taught by the peer faqeer which is not much close to islam... but the cities ppl when they turn toward islam they analyze it with their own brain before accepting... and when they accept something they r more rigid in following it... anyway this is based on my own observations and analysis and it can be wrong as well.

not all ppl, not the type or morons who go on burning rampages in their protests. The people who go to real scholars and learn religion and are educated, aware, informed, and open minded do have a better sense of religion and are thus better practitioners of the religion. lastly I would not use the term rigid to explain their approach, but they they are more proficient and more committed to living their life by the teachings of the faith.

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Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it’s headed.

Well my POV has been touched upon by Fraudz and Xcom in various ways, firstly Islamic revivalism in a general sense:

  1. This has been developing for quite sometime, Muslims collectively like most groups have cyclical phases of rises and falls where religion becomes paramount. There was a lack of any militant Pan Islamic sentiment in Muslim states for much of the 18th and early 20th century..some examples of the exceptions are
    a) Abdul Wahabs Salafi movements early days, initially immensely successful and quite militralistic (it had defeated the Ottomans repeatedly and their forces even sacked Karbala)..it also influenced groups like Syed Ahmed Shaheed
    b) The Senussi movement of Libya was another example
    c) The Mahdi movement of Sudan
    d) The Khilafat movement of India

The common thread amongst these groups is how their movements were reactions to decay or decadence within Muslim societies and not a response to western aggression. (something similar to nowadays) (on a side note the British used Islam quite effectively as a means of manipulating emotions amongst their subjects..British spies often paid mullahs to discourage nationalistic feelings amongst people and aided the hashemites against the Ottomans with propagnada about the Turks not being true Muslims ..as did the Germans use the Turkish Caliph as a means of triggering a mutiny by the Indian Army..a move that was sucecssful in some cases as initially in Word War 1 the British suffered a high rate of desertion initially)

  1. Islamism in a extremist militant sense is another issue in itself, in essence you have a confluence of events that trigered the movement:

a) The crackdown on the Muslim brotherhood by Nasser and more importantly the asassination of Anwar Sadat
b) The Islamic revolution of Iran of 1979
c) The invasion of Afghanistan of 1979
d) The attack on US forces in Lebanon by suicide bombers.
e) The defeat of the Arab Armies in 1967 6 days war
f) The Nizam e Mustafa movement of the 1970’s in Pakistan.

There is a gradual evolution in the extremist Islamist thinking through this period..they initially start with the concept of welfare activities and campaigns on social issues like prostitution and alcholism, and jihad was self defensive solely.

Then after the first crackdowns against them they turned political..hoping to organise a transition of power through demonstrations and political activism. This in turn fails as they realise the source of the dictators powers is not from the people or the army ..it is often because of the superpowers largesse. So again they face a crackdown..amongst those targetted in this final crackdown, some simply snap..the radical political Islamists & Qutbis amongst them suddenly have an epiphany that goes like this:

  1. It is acceptable to use suicide bombers against an enemy (simply because they are the ultimate smart bomb, nullify their opponents technological superiority as the Iranians had shown in lebanon and against Iraq)
  2. If Muslims die in the process of this campaign..it is acceptable, simply because the people are irrelevant in this struggle as they are de facto accomplises of the “decadent” rulers.
  3. Striking first and without warning was acceptable (the doctrine of pre emption, something which the neo-cons and the Muslim extremists share)

Anyway thats all i have for now.. :smiley: .. and yes the Mughals were not a great Islamic empire..they were great rulers..but they were Muslim Kings and nothing more..

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Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.

I think we have 2 very different prespective and i respect your opinion... i know cousins and far off relative who have been detained unnecessarily after 9/11 even when they had all the documents... and i have seen people who were tortured in Afghanistan after 9/11.. that surely wasnt a good sight... anyway if you still believe Americans are the most civilized nation then i have no objection... reading a report having seen the live footage both r different things... thats why i donot deny and donot accept any claims against Talibans... i haven't seen them so how can i say... wot news/views i have heard from all the people who have done bzness in Afghanistan in Taliban times are all good... So i don't think we can agree on this thing..

Lastly i think rigidity comes when u r committed to your religion... and Allah says in Quran that when He bestows premiership to HIS loyal servants in any land than they do following three things.
Establish Salah (namaz)
Establish Zakat (procedure for collection and distribution of zakat)
Establish the system preaching people to stop doing wrongdoing and do right things..

i know i haven;t translated it very well... and i m sure you r pretty senior person so you must have seen this ayah quite a few times... so being Muslim when u become a Chief Executive of a country then if you have to follow Allah;s command than these r things... unfortunately i haven't read bible yet fully so i don't know wot they have been taught neither i think its a discussion that we should compare ourselves with them... we are answerable to our Allah... So i think one has to put up the Flag islamism if he do become a premier. does he do honestly or he is cheating, this is something which Allah define.

wot Iqbal said :
ho deen juda siasat say tu reh jatee hai changaizee...

i read a very interesting incident other day on the rule of Hazrat Umer.. during his Khilafat tenure he use to stand by the butcher shop and if he found out anybody coming to the butcher shop two consective days he used to punish him while saying have u look wot your neighbour is eating... and i don;t think i need to remind you that the Prophet said that if there had to be a another Prophet than it would have been Umer.. but there is not going to be another Prophet.

anyway he must be surely an extremist in your eyes...

But anyway i really appreciate your opinion and and i heartily congratulate you on making two people enter into Islam... but i think its going to be a useless discussion from now on.. as i can't find any common ground between us... so i won;t be replying... i hope u expect a difference of opinion as a normal thing... i sure do..

ps. btw i just did a search on US law passed on CNN and BBC website.. they never said US... these relevant searches..
1.Oregon county bans all marriages
2. South Dakota votes against ban of almost all abortions
3. New Jersey court recognizes right to same-sex unions
4. US court bars internet porn law

Never found US in the heading atleast.. although i didn't use any county/territory name... even in the last case when supreme court pass a ban, they didn;t name it as US.. anyway i know its not going to be anywhere.