I don’t have any supporting articles, but recently I remembered learning in a class on middle east politics a few years ago, that the revival of a fervent, more stringent and politicised Islam, began in the early '70s with the PLO, the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas, with the intifadah being one of the early causes. This trend as we can see today, spread across the world so fast, affecting Muslims from all backgrounds, and possibly a cause in the rise of Wahabiism? These organisations like Hamas and the PLO gained a lot of media attention, and must have been really organised to gain such a mass global following and such patriotism in ordinary Muslims such as myself. I’m bouncing off a lot of ideas here, but how will Islam in the middle east, and moreso the politicisation of it, going to affect the rest of the Ummah in the years to come? Have we reached a climax, will there be a neutralisation, or is there more to come?
Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.
Damn, I thought you were announcing al-Mahdi's return.
Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it’s headed.
Hi Utd 
who’s al-mahdi 
am I allowed to use emoticons here.
Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.
"Wahabism" .... probably saw more of its influence in sub-continent (or probably we felt it more) during Russia-Afghan war, the 'madrassah' business boomed with money coming from "all" corners to divert people towards religion and prepare them to fight the incoming 'infidels' in Afghanistan and on side-note casted everyone else out of Islam. The war ended, but the 'side-note' began to become a "monster". Just my 1.5c
Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.
Some say the 'madressah' business you talk of during the 80s, was funded by the US. How valid is that claim, do you know?
Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.
The 12th Imam.
Where have you been CW?
Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.
cattie it was a trinity
US weapons and funding, saudi radicals, funding and material, and Pakistani and Afghani simpletons.
to fight the soviets, and then the monster that was created was left to turn on itself and you saw the effects of that in afghanistan post societ era, of course than you get the radical oan islamists with dellusions of grandeur like OBL or Zawahiri and they have access to a ready pool of mercenaries with nothing to do.
Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.
Oh Mehdi! busy with life utd, dont know how long this visit will last either.
Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it’s headed.
I dont know if its as simple as a ‘ready pool of mercenaries with nothing to do’. Now its regular university, college students willing to go to the frontlines - they’ve truly succeeded in penetrating muslim societies in all corners. Will these organisations continue to be so powerful, is my question, is there any sort of counter-movement from within Muslim societies?
Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.
there is more to it than that, A lot of this is atrributed to KSA. as the kingom gained wealth and anted to have its influence, the alliance between the royalty and the wahabi shcool of thought was a marriage of convenience, royals basically wanted to keep the wahabi zealots off their back so these folks had funds and what nots, they started exporting their radical imams to the west, they started training and 'educated' and indoctrined ppl form other countries who would go become imams.
The other competing factor was the whole revolution in Iran and those guys exporting their own brand of radicalism to counter the wahabi influence. Much of the dheenga mushti and kabbadi among rival factions in afghanistan was religion based as well as ethnicity based and Iran was directly involved with this and in covert missions within Pakistan.
You could see the shift .. i mean it is very obvious, things started changing in late 70's...
what did you have in the west, in countries like UK, aside from the ppl who immigrated in 50s. for many immigrants that is the time their kids started getting older, many of these kids were from families that came over just to work in mills, with the slowdown in economy ..many of these workers had to find other things, they struggled, the racism of the british society did not help either, so these kids who were alienated, partially because their parents did not allow them to integrate (not I did not say assimilate) and partially because outside the home they were nto treated as equals...well wat d u have disillusioned, disenchanted, lost ppl with no direction, and guess what, in sweep the radicals and start affecting these youngsters. The youngsters are not the only ones the affected but also the elders. simple things that ppl did like celebrating guy fawkes day, or new years or even passing candy on halloween or going easter egg hunting became huge religious issues. 'taking part in religious' celebrations of others and all type of arguments started getting more and more visible. it brewed, and brewed and brewed. radial groups like HT were able to get a foothold and brainwash youth, further rabid groups emerged from there mohajiroun, ghurabaa...fertile breedig grounds for future terrorists, and looks like OBL and co fully recruited from these groups.
and then you have what you have..
it did not happen today, it did not happen yesterday. it took decades..
this is more focused on the england phenomenon.
perhaps someone can post on the changes as they occured around the same time in Pakistan with the growing influence of these folks. I know it manifested in sectarian violence and radical students groups etc etc, what else
Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it’s headed.
cattie my second post answers this point as well.
as far as counter movements, not clearly as organised, not clearly as well funded.
whose fault is it, well partially the govts and all, the whoel using of ppl, partially its our fault, we stayed quiet too long, you would hear an idiot imam at a masjid, shake your head at the rants and go aay and not bother, well we should have bothered because as ppl ignored them, these ppl got thru to others..
Its now that ppl are beginning to question our imams. I know ppl who have thrown out imams form their mosques. I complained against one who was thrown out dont know how much i had to do with it. But others, i know ppl on boards who directly and prsonally fired these ppl and packed there butts back to KSA etc.
at fault are also govts like in UK, where Ht and mohajirouna nd ghuraba were allowed to run rampant, even when ppl muslism and non muslims complained about the hate literature and agenda of these groups.
collectively we looked the other way, people, communites, govts, and collectiveky we have to face this challenge now.
Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.
Nice breakdown Fraudia I agree and I agree with Captain as well.
Whats your thought on Pakistan? I find it worrisome. There seems to be great support from the cities for the tribal areas where the radical fundamentalism is the norm (yes/no?). And while the Army on the surface is secular the ISI is partly infected. What's going to happen, is this thing going to blow? Does the govt. keep what the U.S. would call a devil alliance with these tribes and fundamentalis? If so how does investment and growth occur with that powder keg on the side? I'm warming up to the Idea of pushing China to get more involved via investment and other stakes so that will hopefully erode the radical fundamentalisms out via opportunity.
Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.
utd not much support from cities, majority of people do not care and dont like these ppl. They do get some support from their cohorts in teh cities and as Musharraf pointed out its along tribal lines and not as much religion. People in cities have lived through worse, during zia and benazirs time there were killings every single day, karachi especially was a gangland..
theree things are needed
1) investment so there is more opportunity
2) apathy and finger pointing needs to end, people there have way too much free time and not anything to do with it. I know its a little confusing, howcome if ppl have so much free time there is apathy, well thats the way it is.
3) This spread of radiclaism needs to be countered. It did not start organically and it will not die out organically,
I think the ISI issue is blown out of proportion. as far as alliances go, the govt wanted to find political solutions rather than heading into guerilla warfare headfirst in the tough terrain. I mean US forces are having problems with guerilla fighters in the flatlands of iraq , the tribal areas are armed and the type of terrain that the soviet military could not penetrate. Heck US forces and Nato had to broker deals with afghan warlords, who are producing drugs, which somehow are then serving as funding sources for the taleban? how does that happen...now would one say that US has a devil alliance with taleban sympathisers.
who were taleban, power mongers, many of them were these warlords or ppl from their clans and went back to that place..and these are the ppl that US and NATO are allied with? I think in recent months there has been some talka bout even US talking to talebans in afghanistan to simmer the situation down. Now in pakistan's case the previous deals with tribals did not work out, not because in past something like that would have been impossible, but the tribal elders who wielded power have been killed by these neo-tribals who have little interest in some panislamic jihad globally but they see themselves fighting a foriegn invader that is attacking their kin, i.e. the other pashtoons/pakhtoons. They are not the least bit like al qaeda, while in their simplistic minds enemy of enmy is a friend holds true. if US was not in afghanistan, these ppl would be living in their tribal wonderland doing their own stuff and not bothering anyone else.
remember tribals are not taleban, and taleban are not al qaeda.. in that particular region the interests of all three have converged ... al qaeda is using taleban and used taleban prior to 9/11 by being in their land, now al qaeda and taleban are using tribals the same way, safe haven and hosts. I mean even after 9/11 there was all this hoopla about oh taleban do this and taleban do that and they oppress women and are brutal..well they had been that way for years and it did not register on anyone's radar..as a matter of fact US govt was taling to them for energy plans. what their fault was that they did not let common sense prevail over their egos and customs(whcih seem stupid to us..) did not want to give up their rowdy guests, pakistan at that time wastrying to work with the Taleban to do what was needed i.e. to contain al qaeda, but there was an attack and all we succeeded in doing was making taleban and al qaeda even closer buddies
what the brits knew best and americans may be learning is that sometimes you can meet your objectives going indirectly.
The question is, after all the hoopla by rummy and co over the last few years, are we any safer than we were? are things more stable than they were? and is this terrorism business on its way down or did we fan it and give its strength?
i think the answers are easy to see.
But god forbid if someone wants to try a different approach than our idiotic moves over the last few years.
Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.
I think i will like to disagree with you on more than couple of counts...
Firstly tell you a little background, i m living all my life in Pakistan did Bachelors in computer science and then did jobs in couple of software houses.
All the below finding and reasoning is based on my own life experiences and understanding.. and being in a small circle of friends it can vary a lot for u and others
So the first thing is that the revivalism... i used to go a lot with my mother to shopping center in my early life.. because my mother use to go on buses for shopping early in my life so she liked to have some one along her side... to carry packets and for any other event. So during those days i remember that most of the shopping women use to wear one big chadder or a heft dupatta and u couldn;t distinguish much between them from their clothes...
Now when i happen to go to markets and shopping centers although its a lot less now ... i noticed one thing pretty visible... that the dressing has either become a lot more open or a lot more strict there are very few women shopper in chaddars, mostly they r either in niqaab or dupatta-less clothes..?
Now my family and relatives r all from middle class and i can tell you in 3 houses there is no TV.. they have sort of banned TV... and they r more well to do then the rest of the family... they have biggest cars, biggest homes and worked at the highest level in the biggest company of Pakistan... one of the uncle has two sons in america. and on the other hand rest of the relatives have cable and dishes... so there is no middle ppl with only antenna style tv with 3 channels to watch other than us in the entire family.
So if you see the pattern, you will realise the world is really becoming bipolar... i m afraid to say that it like the two forces are extracting their supporters on their sides... its like you r either with us or against us... there is no middle ground for most of the people now...
Now question is why.? actually two of the very important factors was that after the colonization of the entire muslim ummah in late 1800 there were lot of revival movement, some based on politics and many based on religion.. and with the help of the print media and electronic media the spreading of the news was fast and easy... So the religious school of thoughts of islam were not only able to spread their message fast but also allowed the people and students of one school of thoughts to hear and read the views of other school of thought.. similarly the heads and teachers of the religious school of thoughts faced with the students which were asking more question and presenting the views of other thoughts and asking for explanations.
I personally believe this led to an Islam which is a lot more tolerable then it was in the middle ages of Islam. Along with this phenomen and direct asault of the West people either buckle out and started favoring the west over islam and they returned in totality towards islam. I myself hear lectures from different school of thoughts of islam and i don;t mind practising something which i like from other school of though... In my own Masjid i say "Ameen" in loud voice, even its not the their school of thought but nobody has stopped me directly or indirectly... although their r few incidents but honestly they r very few and they r spread unnecessarily.
Now your second point is that cities r out of it... i have worked in two different software houses and one of them was owned and managed by american muslim. and i can tell you in both softwarehouses i saw that the limits of islam were tried to be followed... and secular people were a lot less.. i mean there was couple of annual trips and in those special arrangements were made for the ladies of the office. and they were kept seperated most of the time. and these software houses has the best educated people of the entire lahore. but still i was pleasantly surprised than more than 70% of the people were strict about saying the prayers with jamaat, no matter how much workload was there. similarly a distance was always kept with the girls and some people even use to go to ijtima's ... so i think leaving aside the guns they r strict muslims and don't know how they will handle if the time for taking on the arms come.
I haven;t met talebans and haven;t seen them but i have read BBC also and islamic journals also. based on all the reports one thing is for sure that all agree that the taleban govt. eliminated the crimes. ? why.? i will just narrate an incident of "Hazrat Umer (RA) time when a lot of stuff from Iran came, Hazrat Umer after seeing all that stuff said how honest r these people.. at that time Hazrat Ali (RA) said that they r honest because you r honest... " So i believe if the Talebans managed to elimiate the corruption and the criminality in the society (BBC also accept that the criminal rate dropped to zero in the last yr of Taleban). than this was only possible because they were not criminal and they were honest... You can disagree with their philosophy but as a human you cannot say they were not upright person. I will just say that on the D-Day if they manage to squeeze into Heaven and we failed to do so then we have just wasted being so-called muslim...
when our target willl be to be successful muslim on the Day of judgement then we have to realise we may have to accept few things which we don;t like and we may have to think before taking any action that wot my religion says about it...
All these views are my own and r not targetted towards anyone.. so no offence to anybody.
Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.
Hi XcomC. So my understanding is your family has no TV or only one with 3 channels, do you agree with this method?
And it's correct you favor strict code of Islam?
Also I agree with you that the Taliban eliminated crime but so did Iraq Saddam, do the means justify the ends...does it matter how you eliminate crime even if it's done in a brutal fashion and in a way that elimates rights of those who don't commit crimes?
These people that have followed the school that rejects the west, do the majority want an isolation or are they taught to spread the message?
Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.
These people that have followed the school that rejects the west, do the majority want an isolation or are they taught to spread the message?
I think you are mixing couple of issues. Saddam didn't eliminate "crimes", he was in full control of who owns arms, who kills who (on bigger scale) so there was no sectarian issue (perhaps thats what you meant) but I don't think 'crime-rate' was low in his days. Taliban's eliminated crimes due to strict execution of laws, no exemptions, you kill you die etc.
Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.
with my perception of your question, i'd say recent events have boosted the need for muslim countries to politically contribute and put forward ideas to the world. one of the ways to possibly stop extremist groups forming is for muslim governments to be strong enough to have their views respected on the diplomatic table. to be able to find a diplomatic solution for israel would be a very high achievement considering the powers opposed to this have no such intentions at present. indeed the palestine issue is at the forfront of such an attempt by iran today. the revivalism was, is and will be countered by those opposed to it but only at critical stages such as being wmd capable. before this stage nobody has to listen to what they have to say as military action is so easy an option. a second nucleur capable muslim country would be a milestone for muslim political views
Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.
Xcom_Cheetah nay farmaya
*I think i will like to disagree with you on more than couple of counts... *
sure
*Firstly tell you a little background, i m living all my life in Pakistan did Bachelors in computer science and then did jobs in couple of software houses. *
right so you have a good internal perspective. Mine is more general and from outside looking in.
All the below finding and reasoning is based on my own life experiences and understanding.. and being in a small circle of friends it can vary a lot for u and others
agreed, experiences can be varied by the company one keeps.I tried to paint a picture based on an overall view of the situation.
**
Now when i happen to go to markets and shopping centers although its a lot less now ... i noticed one thing pretty visible... that the dressing has either become a lot more open or a lot more strict there are very few women shopper in chaddars, mostly they r either in niqaab or dupatta-less clothes..? **
right, so you had the whole 'islamization' by mard-e-momin mard-e-haq zia ul haq zia ul haq, which gained momentum in the 80's, and as time passed many ppl rebelled against the forces of extreme conservatism. so you will see both.
*Now my family and relatives r all from middle class and i can tell you in 3 houses there is no TV.. they have sort of banned TV... and they r more well to do then the rest of the family... they have biggest cars, biggest homes and worked at the highest level in the biggest company of Pakistan... one of the uncle has two sons in america. and on the other hand rest of the relatives have cable and dishes... so there is no middle ppl with only antenna style tv with 3 channels to watch other than us in the entire family. *
so they banned tv from their house, and..it seems very extreme.
on the other hand, we have many more channels, we have msuic concerts, we have a more open more westernized aspect of society as well much more so then we have ever had, with the eception of 60's perhaps.
*So if you see the pattern, you will realise the world is really becoming bipolar... i m afraid to say that it like the two forces are extracting their supporters on their sides... its like you r either with us or against us... there is no middle ground for most of the people now... *
sorry, between the rabid fanatics and the ultra liberals, there is a lare swatch of population that is trying to follow a middle ground. Thats why the ultra mod types of defense are as loathed among avg households as the in your face mullah types.
*Now your second point is that cities r out of it... i have worked in two different software houses and one of them was owned and managed by american muslim. and i can tell you in both softwarehouses i saw that the limits of islam were tried to be followed... and secular people were a lot less.. i mean there was couple of annual trips and in those special arrangements were made for the ladies of the office. and they were kept seperated most of the time. and these software houses has the best educated people of the entire lahore. but still i was pleasantly surprised than more than 70% of the people were strict about saying the prayers with jamaat, no matter how much workload was there. similarly a distance was always kept with the girls and some people even use to go to ijtima's ... so i think leaving aside the guns they r strict muslims and don't know how they will handle if the time for taking on the arms come. *
You confuse following the religion with extremism. In the cities people are not like taleban. strictly follwoing religion has nothing to do with extremism.
*I haven;t met talebans and haven;t seen them but i have read BBC also and islamic journals also. based on all the reports one thing is for sure that all agree that the taleban govt. eliminated the crimes. ? why.? i will just narrate an incident of "*Hazrat Umer (RA) time when a lot of stuff from Iran came, Hazrat Umer after seeing all that stuff said how honest r these people.. at that time Hazrat Ali (RA) said that they r honest because you r honest... " So i believe if the Talebans managed to elimiate the corruption and the criminality in the society (BBC also accept that the criminal rate dropped to zero in the last yr of Taleban). than this was only possible because they were not criminal and they were honest... **
They were honest to their beleifs, which were flawed extremist beliefs, Not only did the crime rate drop, public executions were a norm, women and minority rights were butchered, They even mistreated a visitign pakistani football team. So yes they were honest in doing what they think was right, unfortunately it was wrong.
*You can disagree with their philosophy but as a human you cannot say they were not upright person. I will just say that on the D-Day if they manage to squeeze into Heaven and we failed to do so then we have just wasted being so-called muslim... *
1- I cant call them upright people because as a regime they were brutal and opressive. yes there was some good, drug production was down, public crimes were down, but I think that the bad overwhelmed the good. Justifying their brutality and mindlessness by some good outcomes is liek sayign wine is good for us to drink because it has proven health benefits...
2- right now nobody knows who will or will not go to heaven, but as muslims we believe that you have to have iman, follow the guidance, meet haqooq Allah and Haqooq al ibaad. and the way these clowns handled haqooq al ibaad (rights of people) was pathetic at best.
The fact still remains that what took place in the 70's was the big push for this wave of cobervatism and misguided revivalism. You had other factors ofcourse such as the growth of groups like akhwan al muslimeen, and then groups like Hamas 9which btw was an israeili creation of a religious militant group to counter the mostly secular and political PLO)..but the flames were really fanned i the 70s, and we are all facing that today.
Again most of my observation was from UK, but your observations about Pakistan are in line..from a society that was pretty laid back..if you hear how laid back it was in the 50's and 60's you will not even believe it, ..so from a fairly laid back society we turned into this zia's version of a islamic state..heave censorship, heavy state controlled media, use religion to shut anyone up, and then with satellite, internet, and more open regimes..a counter culture emerged against the ultra orthodox conservatism saudi style that za tried to bring..
Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.
Cat-woman:
Islamic revivalism
started way earlier than 70's, it started during the time British were ruling most of Islamic world. Some think Jamaluddin Afghani (19th century) was the founder of this movement. ( u can google him to find more)
What is/was at heart of Islamic revivalism:
Purely political ambitions. Look thru all the people involved in this movement, u can see that none of them was a clergyman. None of them had been a traditional scholar. All had been ordinary people who later in their course of life became religious. Most had been "relatively" progressive in terms of religious rulings compared to traditionalists and almost all had differences with traditional scholars(molvis). Why is that? Bcoz their ambitions were political and Islam in strictly theological sense was a means to mobilize people.
Where is it heading?
The movement will continue atleast in our lifetime/forseeable future. It will gradually move away from violence. How successful will it be, i don't know.
Re: Islamic Revivalism - where it began, and where it's headed.
Thanks for the perspectives on Pakistan Mr. Frauds and Xcom_Cheetah. Did Zia-ul-Haq have any particular reason or motive for trying to bring in Saudi influences?
Iconoclast, thanks I'll look it up.
On the other hand, without Hamas and the PA, the state of Palestine could be possibly worse in the present day. Apart from military and political activity, they've also provided social relief at a grassroots level. I'm sure the purpose and motives of these groups has evolved over the years. Ofcourse it is largely political, but they've been doing good stuff too - dont think the media pays attention to that.