Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
^^
There is a difference between a 'dynasty' and a Khilafa...A dynasty is when descendants of the same family rule over a people like the Mughals and a Khalifa is an elected official, like the Usmani Khilafa or the Ummayyad much like the pope...They were classified as dynasties, however they are not...That is a big misconception...
Besides, the Mughals never recognized the Khilafa...If they had, the Brits would never have taken over India...
Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
The Mughals always did recognise the Khalifa. They believed themselves represent the Khalifa in India and indeed under Emperor Akbar formally allied with the Uthamanis.
Aside from which, it is quite clear that the Uhtmani Khalif would have been unable to interfere with British plans for India. Britain took over India in the 1800s - a century in which the Uthmanis we unable to defeat any European powers. Indeed, by 1854 the Uthani Khalifat was so militarily incapable that when Russia declared war on the Khalifat, it quickly annihiliated the Khalifat’s navy and began annexing provincesof the Khalifat. It was only when Britain and France, which feared Russian power, joined the war on the Khalifat’s side that the Russian string of victories ceased. Check the history of the 1854-1856 Crimean War to understand how the Khalifa was unable to defeat European militaries on its own.
Ever since the seige of Vienna in the late 1600s the Khalifat had been rapidly on political, economic and military decline. By the 1800s it was a state that was weak in all respects - just like the states of Muslim India.
Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
Islamic ideologies will never be enforced but will always be defeated in all islamic countries. Islamic ideology is about to be overthrown in Iran. In Pakistan it is already being destroyed. Pakistanis are more interested in Bollywod than Islamic ideology. Secularism, free speech, free thought, apostasy and democracy - these will spread and there’s nothing you can do to stop them. Pakistan will just emerge as another nationalistic power that is prosperous, and that takes pride in its Harappan and Scythian past, rather than looking to primitive Arabia.
Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
That’s incorrect MS…The Mughals from the start broke off from the Khilafa and Delhi was declared the new seat of Khilafa and each subsequent ruler took the title of Khalifat-ul-Waqt…
They would never had done that had they recognized the real Khalifa…
Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
What’s your source for that? The book which I ready on the Mughals emphasised that they for the most part accepted the Uthmani claim on Khalifat. Unfortunately, that book is at home whereas I am currently on holiday in Bahrain so I cannot pull it out
Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
thats a nice informative thread. But I have a genuine doubt. How is that Changiz khan was able to distroy the empire. He had only his guts for company. How come he was able to defeat and distroy the empire which was much more sophisticated.Changiz khan is a known plunderer and he plundered everything on his way.
Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
Correct.
I also have this DVD Catty. It deals a lot with Islamic civilization in Europe, primarily Spain and Turkey …
Everybody should watch this documentary … it is amazing.
Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
A brutally frank report on Arab development from 2002:
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=1213392
Obviously this does not explain the falls of ascendent societies of the past, but it does explain some of the barriers today…
Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
the words taqlid and asibiyah are probably the answer..all empires rise and fall..that is the nature of life. Muslim navigators did not bother to uncover the route around the cape of Good hope or the Americas despite the fact that it was their navigation equipment and navigators who helped the Spanish and Portugese uncover them..c'estla vie..some nations reach the ends of the earth and turn back..others reach the moon and turn back
Despite the lack of innovation the Muslim Empires represented a significant chunk of the world economy..what was lacking was a zeal or determinatiwhich again comes back to what i said in that first sentence
Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
Answer: Mongols, THEN dissent from within -- lots of infighting. This weakened the armies and states and is what made it possible for euros to invade.
Now some thoughts on today's world.
If you ask me, reason all countries are the way they are right now is because SOME are using or trying to use 100% of their talent pool. while OTHERS, the ones that are doing badly, are keeping 50% of their talent pool stuck at home doing nothing but grinding grain and raising babies. And guess which group is doing better? Yep, that's right. In every G-8 member country, females are fully integrated into the public sphere, while every country in the bottom twenty has illiterate women and draconian laws to punish them if they step out of line. COINCIDENCE? I think not! Men of poor countries -- free the women, learn how to fold a diaper or two and how to wash a dish, and voila, things may turn around for you.
:D
Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
Mughals who rules India for centuries were descendants of Genghis Khan. Babar and Humayun had a distinct Chinese look. After that with intermarriage with Hindu women, their look became more Indianized.
Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
Yes, I deliberately didn’t mention Mughals (Babur’s dynasty who was a descendent of Timur Lane – a chagatai turk (sp?) , Persian Khanate ( 'Il Khan or lesser khan – Persians rulers descendents of Helegu; title conferred in defference to Kublai) and later Ottomans. Why? Because it doesn’t answer the question posed by the original poster. These were all either Mongol rulers (who had had converted to Islam) or descendents of Mongols who had continued their Mongol ambitions in India, Persia etc.
The Islamic Empire reached its zenith in the Abbasid Baghdad and it’s decline began when Genghis Khan set his sights on the city (later razied by his grandson Helegu).
Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
Thanks for everyone's input, although it has left me a bit confused! From what I understand the downfall began after the Mongol invasion - they managed to destroy entire cities. After that, King Suleyman was not able to expand his empire beyond present-day Turkey. His attempt to get into Europe was a failure (Vienna). Concurrently, the Shia sects were intent on spreading Shiism in the East, whilst Sunni Muslims were more focused on spreading Islam - the infighting was not expected by the Sunnis - seperatism and infighting was a major downfall in the progression of science and tech. in the Muslim world.
Thanks for the article OG. This also explains a lot:
"From their schooldays onwards, Arabs are instructed that they should not defy tradition, that they should respect authority, that truth should be sought in the text and not in experience. Fear of fawda (chaos) and fitna (schism) are deeply engrained in much Arab-Islamic teaching. *“The role of thought”, wrote a Syrian intellectual “is to explain and transmit...and not to search and question.”**
Such tenets never held back the great Arab astronomers and mathematicians of the Middle Ages. But now, it seems, they hold sway, discouraging critical thought and innovation and helping to produce a great army of young Arabs, jobless, unskilled and embittered, cut off from changing their own societies by democratic means. Islam at least offers them a little self-respect. With so many paths closed to them, some are now turning their dangerous anger on the western world."*
Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
CW one has to keep in mind that that the Arabs especially the "Arab-Al-Fusha" Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, and even Yemen are still going through the Post-"Colonial"-Stress-Disorder, the rest of the Arabs from the gulf, their symptoms are not that clears yet, but they are suffering as well.
Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
There is an excellent book called Islamic infulence on Mathematics. Gives a thorough account of 10 the centuray Arab mathematicians who spread all over the world to learn from other cultures and advance mathematics. They were seminal in teaching Europeans decimal system which the Arabs learned from Hindus.
Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
Second question for you.
One of Tipu Sultan’s first acts upon gaining control of Mysore was to send an expedition to the Khalif in Istanbul, and the Khalif recognised Tipu Sultan and gave him permission to rule Mysore.
Yet throughout the British campaign against Tipu Sultan which ultimately not only killed him but which ended Islamic rule in Mysore, the Khalif took no action at all against the British.
It was not the Khalifate which sent an army to save Tipu Sultan as he faced defeat, but instead Emperor Napoleon of France. Of course, that army turned back in the end because British troops overran Seringapatam and killed Tipu Sultan.
Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
Minime, what is 'post-colonial stress disorder'?
Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
^^ catchall for anything that goes wrong in the old "colonies"?
Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
^ I thought it was something specific to the middle east experience.
Re: Islamic Civilisation - what came of it?
You are confusing islam and world together!
Like it or not, islam and the world are still separated (religion and society). Every empire has its downfall but if we analyze it, we find that the spirit of ijtehad went awry and people became too complacent and “stuck” in their thinking that they didn’t bother to explore further and maybe even learn something from the europeans like the industrial revolution.
Though it might seem to us as an abrupt decline but it was gradual and offcourse intermuslim conflicts and bad rulers didn’t help either.