Islam & Peace

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

Speaking of mass hysteria, skv anand let me address your barely coherent reply.

It is no secret that the big players on the world stage set up wars, playing countries against each other, as means of strengthening themselves and their spheres of influence, while experiencing practically no loss themselves.

Jihad is not a word to be taken lightly, nor can just any war be labelled as jihad as the whim takes one. Jihad is not synonymous with religious war as portrayed by popular media. Jihad means a struggle of some sort, involving relgion, be it internal or external, psychological or physical-but it is certainly not a concept that centers itself on a battlefield.

You ask, 'Cannot Muslim army fight without a religious banner?' Is not that very question in itself an oxymoron? The question you seem to be asking, answers itself. By using the term 'muslim army' what other banner would the army have but one that would pertain to religion, in this case the religion being Islam.

I am not familiar with the ugly methods used by the Chechans which you refer to, care to enlighten me?

You state that throughout history, muslims have fought muslims, yet the examples you have given are only from the twentieth century.

You keep bringing up the point of the treatment of women and children in war. Contrasting it with your belief that a religious leader should not urge to kill at all. Islam does not preach pacifism, at the same time it does not encourage one to harbour grudges. As muslims we are not to stand idly while our families are killed and victimized, our lands plundered, our homes razed to the ground. Is it so wrong to stand up for one's rights? The right to live peaceably, the right to make an honest livelihood, the right to practice one's religion freely?

42

SKVANAND

Before you actually label Islam, you'd better have a very good look in your own back yard.

I will refresh your memory for recent times:

V. R. Patel, President of the Maharashtra Hindu Sabha, said : "Muslims are dishonest ; they should be killed and looted. Their dead bodies should not be buried but be burnt." Could anybody have said anything more atro- cious anywhere in the contemporary world? Could anything be more mortifying to 160-million Muslim Minority-more numerous than the combined popula- tion of France and Scandinavian countries.

The above comments are common within the Pagan society that you belong to. What you must understand is that your comments and views are already predicted in Islam

The Qur'aan says:

005.085 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.

It's just a shame that people like you actually exist even even in this day and age.

Instead of clutching at straws and trying to lift a haystack. You should be concentrating on rectifying your own internal Inhumane System!

43

mr anand seemed to have skipped my post too
mr anand does not like to be touched where it hurts please check my post

44

Ayatollah Khomeiny killed his own people, killed Muslims on the name of religion.
Col Gaddaffi is a known notorious killer of his own people, also Muslims.
Saddam Hussain is not behind others in killing Muslims on the name of religion.<<<<

I would like to add few more names

King Hossein of Jordan
Hafiz Al Asad of Syria

but I don't see a relationship of a person making Islam non peaceful religion.

If that's the case then Christianity should become the most non-peacefule religion as Hitler was a Christian.

Seriously, speaking you Hindus have been fed hate but nothing else.

45

My dear Quraysh Girl,

There is some sincere enquiry from your side.
Does literary Islam differs to practical Islam?

Your excuse is that Muslims resort to violence when they are attacked.
First, when in any country Muslims are in good number they demand a partition and further resort to violence.
It happened in India. When Jinah vs league members lost in elections everywhere, they resorted to ‘Direct Action Plan’. Pakistan was not made thru referendum, but was an outcome of direct action plans. Pls find out what is this direct action plan and how it is carried out anywhere.
Muslims are peaceful people. Shall I tell you that in POK there were five lac non Muslim ethnic Kashmiris in 1947-48! What happened to them?

Anyhow this is Muslim vs non Muslim conflict. Why Muslims fight Muslims? Both the sides are jihadi. How do we confirm whom Allah has blessed?
This is the fault of origin thought.

Let us talk Chechnya! Media has not supported Russians. On one side it is Islamic media favoring Chechnya, on the other side is Western media, has interests that Russian are engaged in internal conflict.
First I tell you that present day Chechnya has never been a native place of Chechens. They were tribal habitants of mountains in Caucasian.
Chechen rebel tactics are drug trafficking, kidnapping, kidnapping of minors, and torture, ransom and bomb explosions in public areas. You may refute it as Russian propaganda, but if you can pls meet some Pak citizen staying in Moscow or ask some Muslim citizen of erstwhile USSR Muslim republic.
Honest earning among Chechens is rarity. There is a proverb in neighbor Dagistan republic that; if your horse is stolen, search it in Chechnya’.

You have missed some of my early enquiries in this topic. I am deliberately not touching the pre 20th century history of Islam. That is also not clean.
I find fault with the theory that is imposed supremacy of Prophet. Further Madarasa setup develops a slave mind. And the out come is a huge sect of Islam, not religion.

To my amusement some of our Muslim friends are questioning the mythology history of India. It’s a good fun.

(Frankly I am astonished that this topic is still not deleted. Is there a change in policy? Open discussions are never bad.)

46

[quote]
Originally posted by skv anand:
**
(Frankly I am astonished that this topic is still not deleted. Is there a change in policy? Open discussions are never bad.)**
[/quote]

Why do you want this topic closed so badly!!

Is it coz you get many different answers and still you keep asking the exact same??

Or is it coz You are defested and cant keep up with the logic goin on here?

47

SKV ANAND

'No matter how how many times you try and teach a donkey, it will never learn'.

Keep it up!

48

SKV this is for you not the guys who are arguing contra.

[quote]

What about your "MAHABARATA"?? Whole Hinduism is based on battles and fights.
What about your "KAALI MAA" and "Shera wali Maa" and etc etc. Your Gods are all eqquipped with weapons??! Is this sheer symbolic??! Those devlish frightful faces express JOY, FREEDOM, LOVE AND HUMBLENESS!??

"Think before you talk or talk before you think. Its up to you, boy"

[/quote]

.....Sorry for re-posting it but seems you skipped this one for sure.
You ask questions, now we want answers.

"kaisay na karta usko main pyar, uski haseen main sukh thay hazaar, bichar gayay hum dukh ki hay baat"

49

[quote]
Originally posted by skv anand:
**
(Frankly I am astonished that this topic is still not deleted. Is there a change in policy? Open discussions are never bad.)**
[/quote]

This topic will be closed too if it changes its tone from a civilized discussion to a mockfest. As long as people can discuss withour being disrespectful to others, and topics can be discussed without being rude or arrogant its not an issue.

I am astonished too that this topic has been able to keep somewhat a civilized tone even from the usual suspects.

[This message has been edited by X2 (edited August 21, 2001).]

50

[quote]
Originally posted by skv anand:
*I am deliberately not touching the pre 20th century history of Islam. That is also not clean.
*
[/quote]

Care to enlighten us? Then we will come to how clean your history has been.

51

**
who said Saddam’s killing of Kurd was part of Jihad?

How many times have you heard the definition of Jihad? Probably I have tried to explain the ‘definition’ several times now, but you opt to ignore.

**
again, if this war is against definition of Jihad, then it was simply war over borders, resources, world gains etc.

**
Pakistan army is not “Islamic” army. Yes, they recruit lots of Muslims in Pakistan army, but motto of Pakistan army is not “establish Islam” but simply protect borders (almost by any means).

**

give me an example of “ugly methods” ???

**

If you can learn the definition of jihad, it’ll suffice to understand what ‘war’ is jihad and what is not.

**
okay, may be I misquoted, I’ll try to comeback with original text of Prophet’s sayings regarding this subject.

We have rested and slept a lot, its time to wake up, and wake all Muslims… and do ALL kinds of Jihad. yes, we’ll reject the ‘mass hysteria’.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/soldier.gif

We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?

52

Friends, while defending Islam you people have created a good confusion.
Today I am enlightened that all infighting in Muslim world is not as per Islam. All Muslim fighting against each other and shouting of slogans ‘Allah o Akbar’ is a fake.
Islamic religious and political leaders Khomeiny, Saddam or Yahia Khan have made fool of their armies, when they told them that they were going on a Jihad.

A real face of Chechnya; I should waste some time, find a web link and you habitually reject it as an anti Islam propaganda.
I suggest you again to meet some Pak citizen living in Moscow or any non Chechen Muslim living in Russia and ask the realities behind Chechen rebellion.

You are ashamed of 20th century.
Let us talk of Aurangzeb. He killed his brother, imprisoned and tortured his father. He did so not because his brother and father were bad administrators, but he believed that they were not functioning as per Islam.
Shall we talk of Prophet life and history? Islam is not a pacific religion. Islam explains the characteristics of an enemy and dictates the wondrous ways to finish him.
I am not a scholar of religion, but I am confident that Buddha sees no enmity. Christ asks you to pray for enemy.
This is the difference.

My some friends are irritated that I am escaping their curiosity. They are always hasty. I have answered some of their queries before they put it.
You are disturbed because of mythology period of India. Do you see any Indian woman carrying a dagger like Kalii Maa and looking for demons today?
Though in Islamic world imitation of Prophet and his culture is most common.

53

[quote]
Originally posted by skv anand:
**Christianity urges to pardon enemy.
Buddhism does not recognize enmity. Some of Hindu religious books predict to make all efforts for peace.
Quran dictates Jihad.

Rude criticism, counter attacks but no one has answered the very simple question.

Throughout Islamic history we see only bloodbath.
Ayatollah Khomeiny, Gaddaffi or rest, their killing squads have carried banner of Islam. Is it false that in Islamic world majority Muslim killings are credited to Muslims?
Where peace is hidden in Islam?

Can someone name at least one Islamic State where laws are humanitarian and equal for all?

**
[/quote]

Skv Anand! It is not only Muslims killing the whole world. Come out of your dream and see from your own eyes. Don't you read papers where people been killed in London and people been killed in Oldham, Leeds. Don't you know all the drug traffice in South Hall (full of Indians). Why is that you as Indian only See Muslims killing muslims or others. What is happening in Kashmir, aren't Hindus killing Muslims?

54

Throughout history Muslims have fought against Muslims, and you people make noise that Islam means peace. Are you kidding?
No, Skv, I was quite serious when I wrote that post to you. In your last reply to me, you mentioned the Chechen war, stating that, "Chechens have used the most ugly methods against humanity". I'm sorry, but I'm not certain which news source you utilized to base this claim upon...?

Anna Politkovskaya is a Russian journalist, whose book hit the stands earlier this year; it's titled, "A Dirty War: a Russian reporter in Chechnya" (Harvill Press). One section of this book (note it's by a Russian author) describes Russian soldiers opening fire on a 28-year-old woman and her two young children, whose car was set on fire; the woman shouted "For Allah's sake, save us", to which the soldiers replied, "There's no Allah, you Chechen b****, you're dead", and shot her.
One might argue this is one incident, and however horrific, it is isolated. I wish that were the case. In this Russian author's words, "By allowing such a war to be fought in our own country, without any rules, not against terrorists but against those who hate their own bandits perhaps even more strongly than we do, we are the losers and the loss is irreversible". In an article last year she wrote, "Grozny today is a living hell. It is another world, some dreadful Hades you can only reach through the Looking Glass."

Utilizing Russian news sources for info. regarding the Chechen war is similar to me turning to Iraqi news sources for info. regarding the sanctions issue - you are bound to get biased, distorted information.

[This message has been edited by Nadia_H (edited August 22, 2001).]

55

skv anand! why is it that I get the impression that no matter what we say, you will stick to your narrow minded personality. There is not much different about you or any other hindu. Now let me explain knowing the fact that you won’t understand any of it.

Your life starts from a lie and it ends with a lie and Allah will teach you the lesson as he is the most powerful and caring.

Before Islam, the life was nothing but people were more like animals. They forgot the meaning of Allah/God and were just living for nothing. There are been four books and I am sure all the information I will provide you, you already know it but I will tell you something which I don’t think any one else has ever told you.

In Quran, Allah says that there will be people with black hearts and they will have eyes but wouldn’t be able to see the truth. And I am having a feeling that you are one of those which we were told over 1400 years ago.

If you see what Saddam Hussein is doing then don’t forget to check Kashmir out when hindu people are raping and killing innocent people. Don’t forget to check the Media which tells you all about the Cruelty you have in India. Best site to go to is www.bbc.co.uk/news. Then you can come back and talk to us about religion. What would you know if you don’t have a religion. I feel sorry for you.

56

[quote]
Originally posted by skv anand:
**
You are disturbed because of mythology period of India. Do you see any Indian woman carrying a dagger like Kalii Maa and looking for demons today?
Though in Islamic world imitation of Prophet and his culture is most common.**
[/quote]

What does "KALI MAA" signify?! The admirers of "Kali MAA", didnt they homage to this "god" with human life and blood!?! Is this not a part of your religion?!? Just one example of many.

THE PROPHET (PBUH) was against killing, violence, murdering and falsehood, but in that time ppl were so cruel that there was no other way.
Not every "war" was THE PROPHETS (PBUH) intention. HE (PBUH), who we should follow is and was the IDEAL MUSLIM (PBUH) and this should ease up to find and follow the right path and avoid evil deeds.

So don't forget history of hindus and sikh, christians and jews and even buddhist. They had to fight against "non-believers" and surely they did.

"kaisay na karta usko main pyar, uski haseen main sukh thay hazaar, bichar gayay hum dukh ki hay baat"

57

Should have put this in the other post, but it was getting too long...

You are ashamed of 20th century.
:-/ I wonder who, in reality, should be "ashamed" of the 20th century. Is it descendants of the European colonialists who "discovered" North America, embarking upon the first genocide in recorded history against the indigenous Native American populations? Exposed those individuals to diseases that they had no previous exposure to, forced them to convert to Christianity, cease the teaching of their native languages, manipulated and forced their way through the implementation of grossly unfair land treaties, forced Native children to attend church, dress in "civilized" clothes, behave in a "non-savage" manner, etc. etc. And all this in the name of "religion"...

If we want to discuss history, let's bring out ALL those instances when humans acted despicably against each other, ostensibly in the name of religion. Even until the late 1970s, Christian churches in Canada (I'm not certain about elsewhere) forcibly took Aboriginal children away from their parents and communities and placed them in residential schools, in an effort to make them 'forget' their Native culture/history/values. All that in the name of "religion" as well, Skv.

My point is that when I don't view those historical events (including genocide) as a reflection of Christianity the religion, I fail to understand how others view other historical events, such as the Iran-Iraq war, as an extension of Islam...? I know Christianity is a peaceful religion, what was done earlier in its name has NO link to the religion's principles and mandates. I have absolutely NO doubt that the majority of Christians are good people. My query is, why isn't the same principle applied to Islam?

58

**
if knowledge means confusion to you then be what you want to be.

**

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

Yahya Khan was a Muslim???

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

unfortunately he might’ve been Muslim (unfortunate for Muslims to have such a creep in among them). I don’t know the true history of Khomenei so I can’t comment on that. But Saddam for sure is not fighting for Islam (as usual).

**
I asked you for an example, I may have asked for a website link following your example. To my knowledge, most of the attacks of Chechen mujahideen have been on army and not on civilians.

**
I’m not ashamed, the leaders who exploit Islamic beleifs should be ashamed. I’m responsible for my deeds, my tries etc.

**
again, do you want definition of ‘jihad’? if someone exploits any rule, it does not mean that rule is bad, its the doer who is bad.

**
Buddha didn’t see enmity, but his followers were persecuted by who?? Muslims??? NOOOOOO but by “Innocent, peace loving, kind natured” Hindus.

If Christ asked us to pray for enemy then why do Hindus have problems with Christian missionaries?

I am not disturbed by any mythology at all

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

If a Hindu practitioner does not follow Hinduism as it is supposed to be, I don’t have a problem

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/tongue.gif

, but we shall continue to do what we are supposed to do.

whats ur problem if we are following Prophet PBUH’s tradition/culture/teachings?
you follow your ‘social’ practice we follow our “religion”.

We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?

[This message has been edited by Changez_like (edited August 22, 2001).]

59

[quote]
Originally posted by Nadia_H:
**Should have put this in the other post, but it was getting too long...

You are ashamed of 20th century.
:-/ I wonder who, in reality, should be "ashamed" of the 20th century. Is it descendants of the European colonialists who "discovered" North America, embarking upon the first genocide in recorded history against the indigenous Native American populations? Exposed those individuals to diseases that they had no previous exposure to, forced them to convert to Christianity, cease the teaching of their native languages, manipulated and forced their way through the implementation of grossly unfair land treaties, forced Native children to attend church, dress in "civilized" clothes, behave in a "non-savage" manner, etc. etc. And all this in the name of "religion"...

If we want to discuss history, let's bring out ALL those instances when humans acted despicably against each other, ostensibly in the name of religion. Even until the late 1970s, Christian churches in Canada (I'm not certain about elsewhere) forcibly took Aboriginal children away from their parents and communities and placed them in residential schools, in an effort to make them 'forget' their Native culture/history/values. All that in the name of "religion" as well, Skv.

My point is that when I don't view those historical events (including genocide) as a reflection of Christianity the religion, I fail to understand how others view other historical events, such as the Iran-Iraq war, as an extension of Islam...? I know Christianity is a peaceful religion, what was done earlier in its name has NO link to the religion's principles and mandates. I have absolutely NO doubt that the majority of Christians are good people. My query is, why isn't the same principle applied to Islam?**
[/quote]

I agree with Nadia, I think the majority of violence in recent times cannot be attributed to religion but is more in line with a more darwinian aspect of humanity. Limited resources..survival of the fittest etc.

The problem is that jihad is an anachronistic phenomenon that the rest of the world cannot accept. And THEY SHOULDN"T!

I think SKV had a good point when he refers to religions dictating peace and suggesting love thy enemy. While Islam talks about god mandating holy war...against the non-believers.

60

So don't forget history of hindus and sikh, christians and jews and even buddhist. They had to fight against "non-believers" and surely they did.

Why did they have to fight against "non-believers". Why muslims call people of other faiths non-believers? Everybody believes in something. This name calling is a way to put down other people's believe system and dehumanize them and make Islam look superior..these terms believer and non-believer clearly states that something is wrong with people who don't buy in into Islam that is what SKV is trying to tell u. .Tthese kind of words used in a religion allow muslim to look down people of other faith and dehumanize them and that is the part of big problem.

All the words used by muslims such as non-believers, idol worshippers and Kaffirs do not promote respect and harmony, This kind of language and behavior is not accepting and respectful of others it promotes group mentatlity and us verses others.

Fighting for non-believers was matter of survival and an effort to keep alive something they believed in which was forcibly being taken away from them. You have to remember Hindu, Sikhs didn't go to Arabia to fight muslims or impose their faith on them, it was muslims who came to India subcontinent...

[This message has been edited by Rani (edited August 22, 2001).]