Islam & Peace

Society Religion & Philosophy
61

[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
***So don't forget history of hindus and sikh, christians and jews and even buddhist. They had to fight against "non-believers" and surely they did.*

Why did they have to fight against "non-believers". Why muslims call people of other faiths non-believers? Everybody believes in something. This name calling is a way to put down other people's believe system and dehumanize them and make Islam look superior..these terms believer and non-believer clearly states that something is wrong with people who don't buy in into Islam that is what SKV is trying to tell u. .Tthese kind of words used in a religion allow muslim to look down people of other faith and dehumanize them and that is the part of big problem.

All the words used by muslims such as non-believers, idol worshippers and Kaffirs do not promote respect and harmony, This kind of language and behavior is not accepting and respectful of others it promotes group mentatlity and us verses others.

Fighting for non-believers was matter of survival and an effort to keep alive something they believed in which was forcibly being taken away from them. You have to remember Hindu, Sikhs didn't go to Arabia to fight muslims or impose their faith on them, it was muslims who came to India subcontinent...
**
[/quote]

Hey hey hey, you got me wrong my dear. I was talking about the "non-hindus", "non-sikhs,"non-buddhist" etcetc.
What am I for you. A friend of SIKH religion?!?! Or a non-believer of your religion?!

Secondly if hindus, sikhs etc would have had the power, plan, idea and support they would have tried to conquer and rule whole world, my dear.
Christian tried and successided partly, jewish tried and still doing on their own way. Hindus did aswell as Sikh tried and couldnt "come out" of punjab....religion was established quite late. Monarchy ---> slowly Democracy. Even the "peacefull Buddhist" had their "wars".
Muslim don't even have to do anything now. Ppl are converting themselves, even they know the so called "truth" about ISLAM.

Whats the difference betweem going to Arabia and conquer land or any other piece of land?!?!
England (they conquered in the name of ENGLAND not Christianity or/and JUDAISM (the actual sense of purpose!) this is the difference!) did it quite a few times....no one raised questions then?!

"kaisay na karta usko main pyar, uski haseen main sukh thay hazaar, bichar gayay hum dukh ki hay baat"

[This message has been edited by Ali_R (edited August 22, 2001).]

62

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ali_R:
** Hey hey hey, you got me wrong my dear. I was talking about the "non-hindus", "non-sikhs,"non-buddhist" etcetc.
What am I for you. A friend of SIKH religion?!?! Or a non-believer of your religion?!**

You are a fellow human being, what u are has nothing to do with religion..we are human being first and formost Sikhs second. Sikhism believes that there are many Paths that lead to one God, therefore nobody is believer or non-believer and there is no need for conversion.

Secondly if hindus, sikhs etc would have had the power, plan, idea and support they would have tried to conquer and rule whole world, my dear.

Sikhism believe that there are many paths to one God therefore there is no need to convert or impose your way on others..i think u should learn something about eastern religions apart from what u are told by Mullahs. Please don't use words like dear..they take away from discussion.

Christian tried and successided partly, jewish tried and still doing on their own way. Hindus did aswell as Sikh tried and couldnt "come out" of punjab....religion was established quite late. Monarchy ---> slowly Democracy. Even the "peacefull Buddhist" had their "wars".

You are mixing oranges with apples Christianity, Judaism and Islam are semtic religions with roots in middle east. Whereas Hinduism and Sikhism are eastern religion with compleately diff philosphy...they don't believe in conversion. You are viewing the whole world through your philosphy, u seem to have very minimal knowledge of other philosphies.

Muslim don't even have to do anything now. Ppl are converting themselves, even they know the so called "truth" about ISLAM.

Really..then why are mullah's busy visiting jails in US and why muslims insist on converting non-muslims if hey happen to marry them.

Whats the difference betweem going to Arabia and conquer land or any other piece of land?!?!
England (they conquered in the name of ENGLAND not Christianity or/and JUDAISM (the actual sense of purpose!) this is the difference!) did it quite a few times....no one raised questions then?!

I wouldn't blame Arabians if they resisted the attack and fought back to preserve their own religion..as u are blaming Hindu and Sikhs for fighting back and somehow making them the agressors and muslims had to fight back..muslims were waging wars to impose their religion on others...this is unacceptable

63

why do people have problems when they are termed as 'non-beleivers'???

when people call those who strictly want to follow Islam as "fundamentalists" or "terrorists" did they ever think this "name calling" ???? "de-humanizing"?? etc etc.??

its all a matter of REFERENCE. probably other religions don't acknowledge the existence of other "RELIGIONS" at all. Other religions may just say "followers" or "fellow human being", is that not "dehumanizing"?? since other "fellow human being" also had religion why not consider that?

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

64

[quote]
Originally posted by Rani:
**
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ali_R:
*You are a fellow human being, what u are has nothing to do with religion..we are human being first and formost Sikhs second. Sikhism believes that there are many Paths that lead to one God, therefore nobody is believer or non-believer and there is no need for conversion.
*

i.ex.:Thats why MR. Singh trapped muslims (before partition!) which were killed by british hands. The worst massacre ever!!

Sikhism believe that there are many paths to one God therefore there is no need to convert or impose your way on others..i think u should learn something about eastern religions apart from what u are told by Mullahs. Please don't use words like dear..they take away from discussion.

Then why are you taking the side of hindus and discussing against us muslims?!? Why sikhs were involved when babar masjid was distroyed by hindus ?!?

*You are mixing oranges with apples Christianity, Judaism and Islam are semtic religions with roots in middle east. Whereas Hinduism and Sikhism are eastern religion with compleately diff philosphy...they don't believe in conversion. You are viewing the whole world through your philosphy, u seem to have very minimal knowledge of other philosphies.
*

A lot of my friends are sikhs and hindus and i have enough knowlegde to tell you at least something about your own religion my dear. Concerning the fact that GURU NANAK was a great person and he actually was a muslim if you know that. Then why you believe in a religion which was "create" by a muslim?! How ever, if you read the whole story with liberal mind then u'll find out that GURU NANAK JI was another person of those who wanted to convert hindus to his religion the ISLAM! But this is not discussable here coz you ppl wont believe it anyway.

*Really..then why are mullah's busy visiting jails in US and why muslims insist on converting non-muslims if hey happen to marry them.
*

Mullah and Islam itself, you have to distinguish both, rani. You cant lump everything together. What a single person does its up to him. Why he does that i cant stop him from doing this. If another believes it then its his own problem not mine and not yours. Do you agree?
I have quran and hadiths and some knowlegde from other sources (i.e.: books). Im not being influenced by Mullahs.
I think (100 times if needed) before i talk and not vice versa.

*I wouldn't blame Arabians if they resisted the attack and fought back to preserve their own religion..as u are blaming Hindu and Sikhs for fighting back and somehow making them the agressors and muslims had to fight back..muslims were waging wars to impose their religion on others...this is unacceptable
*

Im not talking only about HINDUS AND SIKHS im talking in general. Especially about the PPL in MEDINA. At that time there were jewish, quraish etc etc. The prophet (pbuh) used to do is work very calmly and honestly. He told those ppl the truth and he told them if you wont believe me ALLAH will give you punishment...not he, himself.
After hearing this the jewish,quraish etc etc. become worried coz they feared THE PROPHET (pbuh) and his work, persuading those ppl.
Those ppl started to hunt him (pbuh)and wanted him (pbuh) dead.
Rani our prophet and ALLAH (pbuh) gave those ppl a lot of chances but they never listened to him and he first tried every thing without aggressiveness and violence. He was always against it!! But finally when he had to escape from Medina, he got a msg from ALLAH that he will have to fight against them otherwise he (pbuh), his family and the muslim community (not many at this time) will be murdered.

**
[/quote]

Thats it believe it or not these are not words of a MUSLIM and its no propaganda material.:

"Sense of justice is one of the most wonderful ideals of Islam, because as I read in the Qur'an I find those dynamic principles of life, not mystic but practical ethics for the daily conduct of life suited to the whole world." Lectures on "The Ideals of Islam;" SPEECHES AND WRITINGS OF SAROJINI NAIDU, Madras, 1918 ***

"kaisay na karta usko main pyar, uski haseen main sukh thay hazaar, bichar gayay hum dukh ki hay baat"

[This message has been edited by Ali_R (edited August 22, 2001).]

65

Infoman, in your post you refer to jihad as an "anachronistic phenomenon" that the rest of the world shouldn't accept. Just out of curiosity, according to yourself, what is the definition of "jihad"?

In your reply you stated that, in Islam, God mandates "holy war against the non-believers". The actual section of the Quran I believe you are referring to states, "Permission (to fight) is granted to those who are being persecuted..." (22:39-40). In another place it is stated that, during war, "If they resort to peace, so shall you..." (8:60-61)

Absolutely no transgressions, no crossing of limits is permissible; any war done in the cause of God must keep as its principle this, "Let there be no compulsion in religion" (2:256).

I'm very sorry, but I am at a loss to comprehend how Islam can be a religion of terror and violence when this is explicitly stated in the Quran, "We...made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other)." (49:13)

Turning to the issue of the definition of "jihad" itself - someone struggling to quit smoking, someone taking care of her/his grandparents, someone shovelling snow on an elderly person's driveway, someone who contemplates before speaking so as not to hurt someone, refuses to indulge in gossip with a friend --> all these are instances of jihad, Infoman, because jihad simply means a struggle for righteousness, for spiritual good. I have committed jihad numerous times - whenever I have tried to help out a friend. It does not signify running around with a submachine gun hoping to blow off the heads of a few "non-believers". :-| Any act done with the intention of improving oneself (refusing to lie/steal/cheat/gossip, etc.) is jihad.

66

Nadia_H ji, these people have been informed of what “jihad” means and what it is for, but our definitions fall on deaf ears and they are blind-folded when they read about the definition of “jihad”.

Everytime we told them what it means, they resorted to pointing out at what so-called Muslim leaders have done so far. They are unable to understand the explanation that their acts are not to be considered as jihad… but sigh..

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif

We oughta be Changez like, don’t we?

67

My Dear Nadia,

http://itn.co.uk/news/20010314/world/08chechnya.shtml

This web site says very little but authentic about Chechens. Some time back, most probably last year the European Union decided to ban the Russian membership on Chechen issue. The Russian Foreign Minister produced a lengthy and authentic material reports on the whole issue and successfully defended Russia. If you have any approach pls find out that report. I made some efforts, but could not reach a website.

You are keenly defending Islam and the teachings of quran, but the core issue is that if an original thought can easily be exploited for dirty ends, whom shall we blame?
Rest later!

Rgds

68

Followers of Islam are very rigid.
One can joke with a Hindu or a Jew nothing will happen. A Christian will not react if Christianity is criticized, nor he will accuse you of ignorance or urge to study Bible.
Secrete is in Madarasa setup, and daily rituals that enslaves the mind.
This is the difference.

69

Skv, thank you for your reply.

Firstly, the link that you provided mentioned this regarding Chechnya’s human right’s violations: “Reports of serious human rights violations carried out by Chechen fighters against federal and local authorities and against civilians continue”. According to your article, Mary Robinson, who commissioned this report, “also asked Russian forces to end their killings in the breakaway republic”. As you must have noted, both sides have been found culpable - neither the Russians nor the Chechens should claim their hands to be free of blood in this issue.

Regarding the report by the Russian Foreign Minister - is that the source you utilized in arriving at the conclusion that, “Chechens have used the most ugly methods against humanity”? I might be wrong for stating this, but personally I do not feel comfortable utilizing any sources from Russia for info. regarding Chechnya (unless it is by ‘independent’ orgs. or people). You referred to a government source - honestly speaking, what sort of propaganda do you believe the Russian govt. would issue regarding Chechnya? Would you believe a report sponsored by the Pakistani government that the human rights situation in Pakistan is improving?

While I wait for a more independent source for the claim that Chechens utilized the “most ugly methods against humanity”, let me mention an Amnesty Ireland report which perhaps you might have already heard of. Published earlier this year, it found both sides guilty of committing human rights violations, and concluded that, “Russian forces are responsible for the overwhelming majority of physical harm and material damage suffered by civilians.” http://www.amnesty.ie/news/2001/chec.shtml

An editorial in a main British newspaper minced no words when it stated, “The systematic victimising of defenceless civilians, masquerading as ‘counter-terrorism’, cannot be countenanced by western leaders who subscribe to universal human rights. Nor can they ignore it (much as they try). Mr. Putin must stop these excesses right now, pull the troops out, and let the UN, the OSCE [Org. for Security and Cooperation in Europe] and aid agencies in. If he will not, then he must stop pretending to lead a modern, democratic European state…” http://www.guardian.co.uk/chechnya/Story/0,2763,523821,00.html

70

My Dear Nadia,

It’s nice that you talk against war.
Apart from Mary Robinson report I did not offer any Russian propaganda material. I stressed on the Russian Foreign Minister report at the European Union conference. At that moment the EU was deadly against Russia, but the Russian Foreign Minister came out with flying colors.
I earlier asked you to contact some Pak citizen staying in Moscow or any non Chechen Muslim from Russia/ erstwhile USSR and you may know some real nature of Chechens.

Yes, the topic here is not the discussion on Russia-Chechnya war politics.

Rgds

71

[quote]
Originally posted by skv anand:
*Followers of Islam are very rigid.
One can joke with a Hindu or a Jew nothing will happen. A Christian will not react if Christianity is criticized, nor he will accuse you of ignorance or urge to study Bible.
*
[/quote]

You make me laugh skv anand.
I've been discussing with Jewish ppl for nearly a year now on a german forum. You wont believe it but this is nothing compared to it....They insult you from head to feet and even start threaten non-jewish forum members. You know what they blame you for if you start a "good" discussion round and give realistic and sensible contra-arguments?!-->ANTISEMITSM If you are less experienced communicating with jewish then you better avoid such statements....thank you.

"kaisay na karta usko main pyar, uski haseen main sukh thay hazaar, bichar gayay hum dukh ki hay baat"

72

[quote]
Originally posted by skv anand:
Followers of Islam are very rigid.
One can joke with a Hindu or a Jew nothing will happen. A Christian will not react if Christianity is criticized, nor he will accuse you of ignorance or urge to study Bible.
Secrete is in Madarasa setup, and daily rituals that enslaves the mind.
This is the difference.
[/quote]

why do you want to make fun of religions/religious entities in first place? the only reason I think is out of 'inferior complex'.

Bro Ali already pointed you out that this case is not true for "ALL" Jews or "ALL" Christians either. they'll defend too.

As far as Hindus are concerned, then as you already said that it is not a religion .... so they can make fun and have fun and enjoy using beliefs for fun etc.

Anyway, it is not true about Hindus either... i was on a hindu joke list(someone included me), I enjoyed the jokes, one day I forwarded a joke on a Hindu/Hinduism.... and the moderator who happens to be a Hindu (of course) changed the joke to fit it on Sikh/Sikhism.... why?

We oughta be Changez like, don't we?

73

So, I was talking about the Madarasa system. This is 21st century and Islam is still creating people like Taleban.
Is there any comparison?

And Ali, can you show me a single sensible post from your side? Nothing wrong if jews are angry at you.

74

[quote]
Originally posted by skv anand:
** This is 21st century and Islam is still creating people like Taleban.
**
[/quote]

Correction!!!!! Islam is not creating people like taliban....
They are foolishly designed and created by worldly super powers. They were created for political reasons only.

75

SKV ANAND

This is the 21st Century and Hindus are still worshipping IDOLS, falsely believing that all their prayers (if you can call it that) and wordly wishes will be answered.

Maybe a couple of thousand years ago, you could of brainwashed and fooled the public, but unfortunately this is not the case anymore.

I notice that your steretyping stays around the Taliban and Chechnya with Saddam and Ghadafi thrown in for good measure.

Once you learn to step out of your insecurities and scrutinise world Faiths from and independant and unbiased point of view, rather than the HOMEBRED typical Hindu mentality, which is not your fault, but the elders. Then you may just grasp something in life.

The Madrasah system is no different to the worlds schooling system. The only difference is that in Madrasahs Islam is taught. This is where you have a personal problem. If on the other hand IDOL WORSHIP, DEVIL WORSHIP, SEXUAL WORSHIP, PAGANISM, RACISM and any other ISM was taught, you would gladly be in favour of the system. As I believe this would be in line with your Hindu beliefs.

Why do people bother go to school? you are only brainwashed into what the programmers want you to believe! This is your argument by the way.

How did you learn to read and write!

Next time you come up with a reason, at least make it 50% plausible!

In the meantime you must concentrate on salvaging your reputation (what's left of it at least), and try not to make your self look like a bigger idiot than you sound.

At least the Taliban are brave enough to publicly announce their views, ways and intentions and not worry about the western propoganda hype machine, which is also jumped onto by the Pagans and enemys of Islam.

If you have such a problem with Islam, then you should catch a flight to MARS and fly first class and commence a new life, because ISLAM is here to stay!!!!

76

sholay how you compare idol-worshipping japanese and monotheistic bangaldeshis?
technology and idol-worshipping nothing to
with each other.

77

[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
sholay how you compare idol-worshipping japanese and monotheistic bangaldeshis?
technology and idol-worshipping nothing to
with each other.
[/quote]

Skv Anand said "So, I was talking about the Madarasa system. This is 21st century and Islam is still creating people like Taleban"
Please read the statement before answering.

78

Madarsa setup enslaves the mind. There are many dissidents in day to day Islamic life, but they have to keep quite, because rebels are not tolerated in this peaceful religion.
Excuses are uncounted.

I did some efforts. From Aurangzeb to Khomeiny, they have been revered respected religious or political leaders, and for their atrocities and killings some now tell me that it is not as per peaceful teachings of Islam.
Were all these personalities not Muslims? May be Taleban are also not Muslims?
May be the information is wrong. Because all leaders and their junta in Islamic world when go on rampage killing, say it is Islam.

If they have lied, why not Islamic world come together and reject them? Why such cowardice?

79

[quote]
Originally posted by skv anand:
**
And Ali, can you show me a single sensible post from your side? Nothing wrong if jews are angry at you.**
[/quote]

Are you here to criticize others or to discuss this topic??
Ok then give me the answer on my post which was dedicated to RANI..but like for any good reason she suddenly dissapeared...are you the next?!! Now argue and don't fool around. I want to discuss with you on topics not letters.

Talkin the jews...if you dont believe my eyes then go there and have a discussion..hmm sorry but they dont communicate in english so you better learn german, first.

"kaisay na karta usko main pyar, uski haseen main sukh thay hazaar, bichar gayay hum dukh ki hay baat"

80

Skv Anand! Very good point. Madarisa is a place like School. Like Monks and their temple. Now I haven’t heard you saying anything about them. Before school system we (Muslims) had Madarisa. Now you can’t say that they are not Peaceful people as I believe if you are really religious and expect God to show you the way, he will.

You are confusing Islam and Muslim. Islam is a Religion with believe of one Allah and last prophet sent by him to humans with the name of Mohammed PBUH.

A Muslim is who believes in the concept describe above. You can call yourself Muslim as MDNASEER did and talk all the rubbish. Does that mean all Muslims are bad?

Now if some one is been unfair to other and call themselves Muslims we are introduced to three choices:

  1. Go against them and tell them that they are wrong. (Example in Kashmir)
  2. Go and tell people around it that it is wrong. (Example people like us talking to each other sharing wrong things and good things)
  3. Stop yourself from that wrong doing (Example, you stop yourself from drinking or smoking etc)

I will agree with you if you are right and I will disagree with you if your logic is hard to understand or to digest and you know it. The only problem we have here on this forum is that we as two nations blaming each other like our governments, which are not helping any one of us.

Okay I will agree that Islam is the biggest part of a Muslims life and Quran is way of life. Islam has a big influence in our lives.

[This message has been edited by mbmagsi (edited August 25, 2001).]